Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Newer... Faster... Stronger.. combat droids..
JediKnightMark wrote:
Icarus-6 wrote:
The easiest way to disprove it is Novice Marksman. This gives a combat advantage over those who don't take it yet it has no prerequisite (beyond 15 skill points).
Prerequisite: Something previously required, or necessary to an end or effect proposed
lol Having skill points is a huge prerequisite.I assume you meant a skill-based or profession-based prereq though, right?
Message Edited by JediKnightMark on 02-25-2004 04:48 PM
Message Edited by JediKnightMark on 02-25-2004 04:49 PM
That's why I said 'beyond 15 skill points'. 
Yes, it is a prerequisite by the definition of prerequisite but in the context of the argument (which was that you had to have combat skills before you could get further combat skills) it wasn't. Sure, most experienced characters are out of skill points but any new character can pick it up for free. Just chose to be a Marksman.
OrionsByte wrote:
...With the exception of Creature Handlers, any elite profession capable of doing combat in some way relies on either Brawler or Marksman skills...
I also respectfully disagree with your definition of balancing. I don't think you can look at how many people take up the profession as a measure of how balanced it is (especially with the remarkable advent of holo-chasing). Balancing, in this context, can be stated like this: "Is it fairfor this profession to have this ability based on what the rest of their skills are?" In other words, if all the other elite professions require marksman or brawler to gain combat abilities, why wouldn't Droid Engineering?
...Creature handlers are unique in that they fly in the face of what I've been presenting so far. They have no combat prerequisite - only scout skills.... [L]etting the same class craft and use the same item would be unfair and unbalancing to the other classes. If I, as a Fencer, want or need a new weapon, I need to find someone to make it and buy it from. However, if I'm a DE and I want a new combat droid, well heck, I'll just whip one out right here. Basically I've now become self-sufficient without spending skill points on anything but DE (with the possible exception of resources). I am the beginning and the end of the supply-and-demand cycle. CHs, on the other hand, need to obtain their pets from the wild (granted, it's possible to do this solo, but generally not without some sort of protection) or buy them from a BE.
I think the direction the DEVs are going with this is the right one. I think that eventually (SE maybe) we'll see a Droid Commander class that will introduce the higher-level combat droids and be the compliment to (not the clone of) the Creature Handler profession. But until then we'll have to make due with our CL10 droids, 'cause there's really no other way to get them.
Message Edited by OrionsByte on 02-25-2004 02:06 PM
Boy, there's a lot of good valid argument there and it's hard to edit it down to bullet points to address them, but I've tried.
First off, as you point out Creature Handlers do not require any combat skills. You later go on to argue that they cannot create their pets and are forced to hunt for them at risk to themselves. While this does differentiate them from Droid Engineers I don't actually think it's a significant difference. While I am not nor have I ever been a CH I have been lead to believe that the risk to themselves is only mild to moderate. This risk can be balanced against the need to harvest multiple types of resources, manage factory runs, and deal with other crafting issues that effect Droid Engineers so to my feeling there is very little balance difference between crafting a droid and hunting for a pet.
I will stand by my statement that the numbers are indicative of balance. I will clarify and say that the numbers do not define balance. They are like the speedometer on your car. It only indicates how fast you are going, it doesn't have any effect on your speed itself. I will also say that the numbers have nothing to do with any sort of moral fairness, and yes, that is something that has to be addressed in design. I simply say that if your classes are balanced you will have a fairly even distribution across your classes. Holochasers can be factored out of the equation, either actively through not counting any class where it is the next step along a characters Jedi path or else passively by assuming that the various holochasers will more or less cancel one another out in the final figures.
As far as the fairness issue goes, as I feel there is little difference in game mechanic between hunting for a pet and creating a droid I think it can be argued that it is actually unfair not to give Droid Engineers combat droids unavailable to other people. However, that is really just Devil's Advocacy again as I personally do not take such a view.
I do agree that I think that overall the Developers are headed in the right way. I actually started another thread (http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=66241)in which I pursue the idea of not just adding a Droid Commander class but also adding a more 'pure crafter' class in order to help separate the two factions that currently seem to exist within Droid Engineers
Incidently, while I don't agree with all your points I do understand them and think they are well argued. I've been pretty silent on the boards for recent months because it's felt like there's been very little exchange of ideas, just lots of throwing of vitriol. I'm very glad you posted.
The only REAL reason for anyone to want DH and DE to be the same class is so they do not have to spend points on anything else. Face it folks thats the reason. Lets apply this to CH since everyone likes too.
DE and CH can both get 'pets' one crafts the other tames
DE and CH can both send pets into battle. CH are stronger, yes but then again ALL classes can buy CL10 droids or pets and send them into battle
DE and CH can both sell the 'pets' to others
now lets take a look at some diffs:
DE can make other droids to sell, how about a nice doctors droid with combat ablility healing ability and crafting ability in one 'pet'
Icarus-6 wrote:
First off, as you point out Creature Handlers do not require any combat skills. You later go on to argue that they cannot create their pets and are forced to hunt for them at risk to themselves. While this does differentiate them from Droid Engineers I don't actually think it's a significant difference. While I am not nor have I ever been a CH I have been lead to believe that the risk to themselves is only mild to moderate. This risk can be balanced against the need to harvest multiple types of resources, manage factory runs, and deal with other crafting issues that effect Droid Engineers so to my feeling there is very little balance difference between crafting a droid and hunting for a pet.
Message Edited by OrionsByte on 02-25-2004 04:02 PM
wornol wrote:
The only REAL reason for anyone to want DH and DE to be the same class is so they do not have to spend points on anything else. Face it folks thats the reason. Lets apply this to CH since everyone likes too.
DE and CH can both get 'pets' one crafts the other tames
DE and CH can both send pets into battle. CH are stronger, yes but then again ALL classes can buy CL10 droids or pets and send them into battle
DE and CH can both sell the 'pets' to others
now lets take a look at some diffs:
DE can make other droids to sell, how about a nice doctors droid with combat ablility healing ability and crafting ability in one 'pet'
CH can sell you a mount that can also fight, pet does not allow you to heal nor does it have a built in crafting station.
DE can sell class specific modules in droidsto other players.
CH can sell you.... um yea...
Now are we starting to see that a DE is a crafting class, and CH is a combat class?
mmmk, thx, bye
Not everyone wants DE and DH to be the same class to avoid spending points. This biggest complaint many DEs had when the DH concept was floated was that they didn't like the logic of building a droid they couldn't use (closely followed by the complaint that people were being told the DEs had asked for the DH class when they had done just the opposite).
As for your points about the differences in droids and pets, yes, there are differences. I think many DEs would agree that it would be unfair if the DE only droids were level 60 and on par with the best CH pets since droids have additional advantages. However, the advantages listed are probably not significant enough to warrant the massive gap in combat ability between the best droid a DE can control and the best pet a CH can control. Certainly there would be justification for some gap but not this much.
As for DE being a crafting class and CH a combat class, that is because of the current state of droids. If DEs could control a level 45 or 50 combat droid suddenly we would be a combat class. We still would not overpower the CHs who can call level 60 creatures but would be on very equivalent footing with them.
Again, I am playing Devil's Advocate and not really proposing we get level 45 combat droids. I am simply showing the opinions of a certain faction of Droid Engineers who wish to be roughly the equivalent of a CH for droids. Unfortunately there is only one class for both the pure crafters and those who wish to lead droids into battle and that, I think, is the true heart of the problem.
OrionsByte wrote:
...I guess what it really boils down to for me is that if you look at the basic professions theyare very compartmentalized: Artisans craft, Medics and Entertainers provide a service, Marksmen and Brawlers fight, and Scouts... well Scouts are kind of ubiquitous (they craft, provide a service, and give the player special abilities like terrain negotiation). I'd like this system to stay intact. The only way to have elements from more than one of these categories should be the hybrid professions...
Unfortunately, I think when you really boil it down Scout is much more of a Crafting profession than a hybrid profession. They get no combat skills by virtue of being Scouts (I believe) and while Terrain Negotiation is hard to quantify their ability to harvest hides and meat is very analogous to the Artisan abilities to Survey while their ability to build tents and traps is a straight and clear crafting ability.
I suppose it could be argued their ability to build traps is a combat ability but that could be countered by the Artisan's ability to build weapons.
Certainly there is no clear cut direct comparison between Artisans and Scouts, but I feel they are much closer to being crafters than hybrids. People simply view them in those terms because Scouts tend to be played as hybrids. This however isn't related to the Scout tree but is related to the fact that nearly every scout also learns Novice Marksman. This is in part because of the demands of their tree, but again the tree isn't really granting them a great deal of combat skill, rather it is requiring it.
Icarus-6 wrote:
OrionsByte wrote:
...I guess what it really boils down to for me is that if you look at the basic professions theyare very compartmentalized: Artisans craft, Medics and Entertainers provide a service, Marksmen and Brawlers fight, and Scouts... well Scouts are kind of ubiquitous (they craft, provide a service, and give the player special abilities like terrain negotiation). I'd like this system to stay intact. The only way to have elements from more than one of these categories should be the hybrid professions...
Unfortunately, I think when you really boil it down Scout is much more of a Crafting profession than a hybrid profession. They get no combat skills by virtue of being Scouts (I believe) and while Terrain Negotiation is hard to quantify their ability to harvest hides and meat is very analogous to the Artisan abilities to Survey while their ability to build tents and traps is a straight and clear crafting ability.
I suppose it could be argued their ability to build traps is a combat ability but that could be countered by the Artisan's ability to build weapons.
Certainly there is no clear cut direct comparison between Artisans and Scouts, but I feel they are much closer to being crafters than hybrids. People simply view them in those terms because Scouts tend to be played as hybrids. This however isn't related to the Scout tree but is related to the fact that nearly every scout also learns Novice Marksman. This is in part because of the demands of their tree, but again the tree isn't really granting them a great deal of combat skill, rather it is requiring it.
We're getting off-topic, but I'm enjoying this discussion so I'm going to post anyways.
You're right that Scouts have a strong crafting element. However, I don't think you can really compare them to other crafting professions because the items they craft can only be used by them (and other scouts). They don't create any marketable items.
In addition, the items they craft really only exist in order to provide a service to other players. For example, camps allow medics and entertainers to do their thing. Traps help melee fighters to do their thing.
I don't really consider Scout to be a hybrid profession - it's just in a category all it's own. It has elements of other types of professions but it doesn't inherit all the characteristics of those professions, like a hybrid class would. This uniqueness is important, as it is the reason that Creature Handling can get away with not having any combat-oriented prerequisites.
The line between DH and CH is thin and cloudy, but I do think it's there.
I would not say scout is a crafting profession. Although you used to get general crafting xp from traps and camps. The reason I dont see it as a crafting profession is that although you use a crafting tool, the ability to make camps and traps are inherent wilderness survival skills. Which is why I am glad they give wilderness and trapping xp for crafting these items now. Of course the big ranger camps are wholly different, but most of the basic camps in scouting are just scout constructing items from their natural surroundings. I think the fact that they are crafted is just a game mechanic to make it easier, this is why scouts dont get experimentation on traps and camps. And regardless of the quality of your traps and camps there is no indication they will work better.
The crafting professions are seperated from othermainly by the process of experimentation (not going to get into DE experimentation). A master artisan is seperated greatly from a novice artisan by the quality of product produced not merely the variety of products they produce. Plus artisans are geared toward business and supporting the community in general, such as droids, houses, weapons, vehicles, and armor. The scout's "crafted" items are merely used to support themselves and their party as a survival tool for hunting and killing. Plus scouts pretty much have to be a hybrid with marksmen, there is no other way to get the organics need to level in the trapping and wilderness survival trees. Dont get me started on Exploration being quantified by how many animals I've skinned.
Prin Eckbo, Master DE
Shadowfire
You're right, we are well off the original subject. Anyway, I can certainly see your views on scout and creature handlers. I'm happy to not add controll ofuber droids into the Droid Engineer tree. I'm simply providing some of the counter arguments.
My personal feeling is that the class is too well established to undertake such a radical shift. I have no problems with being able to use a heavy combat droid. I simply don't want to hear 'we need a DE in the group to provide firepower'.
Well back on topic I am really worried about high level droids getting into the game. I think all combat droids if they decide to raise the level cap from 10 should be capped at around 25. A level 25 droid would allow a lot of mid range fighters to solo or group fight mid level difficulty creatures and would add a bit of complexity to PvP. Now I have never dissected all of the movies but it doesnt seem like there were ever really powerful droids. I mean they are machines and apt to break down and be vulnerable to high voltage attacks. I think the level 10 droids will offer some decent support to players and introduce a new level of fun, but to make them on par with creatures is crazy. That being said if high level droids ever hit the scene they will have to go into a seperate profession, if everyone could own them the game would be so incredibly unbalanced. On another note I would like to see combat droids be a big factor in PvP and weak in PvE based on their resists and combat mods. I just get so sick of all the pet tanking in PvE and would hate to see droids brought into that. Plus droids just dont seem to fit in to the whole natural environment that I associate with PvE.
Prin Eckbo
I would think the limit cold be raised higher than that. Simply the fact that the game is designed to support Creature Handlers with Rancors should mean that a class with the ability to command level 45 droids shouldn't break anything. However, I would say heavy combat droids like that need to be restricted. A class able to command level 45 droids shouldn't break anything but everyone able to do so certainly would.
As for how strong droids appear in the movies I think they are stronger than you believe. In the battle at the end of Attack of the Clones the big things rolling around on two wheels and firing volleys of missiles aren't vehicles. They are great big droids calledHailfire Droids (http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/hailfiredroid/index.html). These are the kind of droids I would think would be somewhat comparable to the upper end CH pets and which would need to be restricted similarly.
you are still trying to make DE a combat class, the point of my post was DE IS NOT A COMBAT CLASS!
let me say that again....
The Droid Engineer Prof is not a combat class.
If your logic holds, the "I can make it I should use it" why have anything at all, the only class in the game needed is weapon smith.
if you read back we are not wanting DE to control droids just discussing what droid levels should be. I stated in my earlier post we are engineers not combat people. Let me design and create, let some other guy do the fighting. As much fun as combat droids would be to control, i wouldnt want that skill in DE.
Prin