Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Assembly as important as Experimentation?
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Malitevv
Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:39 am
#14
In other words, the resource stats set the cap on what can be accomplished like I always said. And all the assembly and experimentation bonuses are going to do is slightly increase your probability of hitting that cap.
no more. no less.
if you are regularly filling up all the relevant experimentation boxes with your current bonuses, then that is the best you can do with those resources. No amount of additional bonuses will make any improvement on the best case if you are already hitting it.
Malitevv
Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:18 pm
#15
ok. i am confused. what is a "perfect assembly"? when do you see an indicator on the screen of how good the assembly was? maybe I am not looking in the right place, but I've never seen an indicator of the quality of the assembly.
Straker_Atrella
Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:44 pm
#16
Tk, now after reading your othr posts, I am kind of confused as well.
There is an "Assembly Stage."
And the "Experimentation Stage."
Now are you saying that if you get a Perfect Assembly Stage, you will do better in the Experimentation stage?
TheRealTK421
Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:58 pm
#17
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Tk, now after reading your othr posts, I am kind of confused as well.
Well...it's getting on the late side here, so I'm getting confused too.
I guess that's a good guideline: Try to post less when tired.
There is an "Assembly Stage."
And the "Experimentation Stage."
Now are you saying that if you get a Perfect Assembly Stage, you will do better in the Experimentation stage?
No, they are separate. It's definitely true (for the Harvest module, and others that can benefit from experimentation) that you want the best Assembly roll as possible.
When I spoke of Experimentation, I meant that I needed to actually use a few experimentation points at a time. Spending them all at once on a Harvest module's Eff. tended not to get me 20.
What DID was the cumulative results of several rolls as great or amazing. It is true that resources will set the max. that you can attain on an item/schematic.
To avoid more confusion, I'm gonna log for the night. /emote puts on his nightcap
/bow
Respectfully,
Malitevv
Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:38 pm
#18
simple tests seem to pretty clearly indicate that #1 is false.
And as the other guy mentioned. Given that #2 is the likely truth, experimentation bonuses are many times more valuable than assembly bonuses. An assembly bonus gives you some increased probability of having a high starting percentage, but it would have to consistently give you +N percentage points to all of your starting percentages for every N points of assembly bonus for it to equate to experimentation in importance. 10 points of experimentation are worth a full box with a successful experiment (which isn't that hard to achieve). And that's good for a +10% to the experimentation track of your choice with a pretty high rate of consistency.
Since the base value for assembly is 100 for a master DE it coulnd't possible be that there is a 1-to-1 mapping between assembly points and experimentation percentages because it would mean that with a near perfect assembly, a master DE's starting percentages would all be close to max without any experimentation. That clearly never happens.
Message Edited by Malitevv on 06-15-2004 02:39 PM
Gribnitz
Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:08 pm
#19
This is what I find all the time with my amazing results. High Assembly base skill (tapes and master level DE) along with food definately increases the number of amazing assemblies you get. As I said before, I manage to get 5 or more out of 10 amazing assemblies when I eat Pyollian Cake and Drink Port which gives me a 143 assembly skill. However, my end result is alwasy the same. Either all Amazing Assemblies are not equal, or there is some other ingredient I am missing. Whether I experiment all boxes at once or one at a time I get the same ending %. I am going to try 2 exp boxes at a time with an amazing assembly, 3 ect and see if makes a difference. This is hurting my brain now and I have to get one higher than an 18.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
I got about 50 "Great" Assemblies - giving me a starting % of 24% filled all my experiment boxes with 1 left over, Made a 17 rated module.
I got 1 "Amazing" Assembly - still giving me a starting % of 24% filled all my experiment boxes still with one left over. End result still a 17 rated module.
So basically, my Amazing assembly gave me exactly the same result as all of my greats.
Now I don't have any Assembly tapes, so I am not sure if that matters or not.
Malitevv
Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:22 pm
#20
i am fairly certain that you are attempting the impossible gribnitz. the data suggests that either the guy who made this initial claim was either bugged when he accomplished this or he is explaining things incorrectly.
he's the only person to ever claim that the maximum possiblerating you can get fromcrafting an itemfor a given set of resources is set by anything other than the stats of the underlying resources. and all tests indicate that he's either bugged, or simply wrong.
also, like I said, if you want to test it further, just practice on MSE droids using crap grinding grade resources. If he's right you should be able to get different HAMS from successful experimentation that vary depending upon the assembly successes. you will find that you can't.
Straker_Atrella
Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:41 pm
#21
Ok yea this is what I wanted to know. Good posts guys.
Only one person is claming that #1 is correct. SoI am skeptical.
#2 makes more sense, but isn't nearly as important then if #1 was correct. Sure it may take me a couple of tries to max a module, but then you just make a factory run.
Ectopic
Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:42 pm
#22
It's possible that the assembly roll at the initial crafting phase determines the percentage of the resource cap that can be reached with full experimentation.
^ that's a horrible sentence, so let me clarify what I'm saying with an example and fake numbers:
lets say you make a OQ/COND item and use resources with 900 in each category. The maximum percentage that you can reach with experimentation would be 90%.
Now, let's say that with a "great success" on assembly, you max out with 80% of the theoretical max of 90% (=max experimentation value of 72%).
And, with an "ok success," you max out at 70% of the theoretical max of 90% (=max experimentation value of 63%)
And, with an "amazing success," you max out at 100% of the theoretical max of 90% (=max experimentation value of 90%)
i.e. the assembly roll determines what percentage of the max you can achieve,
or you can think about it like: the assembly roll determines the initial percentage based on the quality of resources, which limits max experimentation
Now, here's where it can get interesting, what if the assembly roll is not as quantum as simply "ok," "great," and "amazing." What if the assembly roll is actually a number from 0-100, and 90-100 falls into the "amazing" category, 80-90 falls into "great," etc.
If this is true, then its possible that the range is not simply 0-100%, but in fact is 0-105%. So that (assuming a completely random and unweighted roll, which is untrue due to the crafting assembly stat), there is a 1/105 chance that you will roll a 105% on an assembly roll, that it would still be called an "amazing success," and that the max experimentation achieved is 105%.
I didn't really think this through, and my mind is currently altered, but lemme know if that makes sense.
Malitevv
Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:49 pm
#23
as i said on the other thread, we all know that is possible. that is what we have been testing to verify if it is possible, and all our tests indicate that it doesn't work that way.
Ectopic wrote:
It's possible that the assembly roll at the initial crafting phase determines the percentage of the resource cap that can be reached with full experimentation.
Straker_Atrella
Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:57 am
#24
Ok there seem to be 2 arguments going here.
#1 Says that abetter assembly will give you a higher starting % meaning that with filling all the boxes, you get a better product.
#2 Says that a better assembly simply helps youget better experimentation, but just helps you fill your boxes faster. Same product result with all boxes filled.
The origional post and other posts that started it was actually #1. People are claiming that they get a better product with a better Assembly.
Last night I did some experimenting.
I have tons of resources to make level 17 Harvesting modules, so I went to town.
I got about 50 "Great" Assemblies - giving me a starting % of 24% filled all my experiment boxes with 1 left over, Made a 17 rated module.
I got 1 "Amazing" Assembly - still giving me a starting % of 24% filled all my experiment boxes still with one left over. End result still a 17 rated module.
So basically, my Amazing assembly gave me exactly the same result as all of my greats.
Now I don't have any Assembly tapes, so I am not sure if that matters or not.
Is there a perfect assembly? I wasn't going to spend all day burning resources if it didn't exist.
So basically my experiments didn't show any increase in modules.
Erillion
Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:33 am
#25
To give you the basics about where this discussion started .. here a repost from another thread:
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Sorry .... i did not make screenies of the assembly process, because at that time I did not think I would need them for any kind of documentation later. Yes, I used the resources mentioned and no other. Thats why in my initial post I gave exactly the information needed for DEs to recreate it. And as I said numerous times before ... this is NOT an instant gratification process .. I handcrafted 200-300 harvester modules with varying materials and procedures before I got this result. And often I used rather expensive crafting food ... so do not expect to get similiar results with 20 tries or so (unless you are a VERY lucky person).
The droids are in use ... ask their owners on Naritus e.g. Drala, Marra, Eter, Keet, Ae'linor and more others. You can buy one ... I put one on my vendor Cybot Galactica Droids (Lok, city of LoknLoad, see waypoint on planetary map, vendors, droids).
A recreation of the crafting process.
(using tapes for experimentation ( +12 = 1 extra point) and assembly (+10 ) in a research center with a tool 14.95 % and a crafting station 43.19 % (I think)).
a) Take resources Oni, Lufini and Grikobium
b) Eat P. Cake +12 assembly
c) assemble
d) Get maximum possible assembly result (dunno now what the exact wording is ... is it "amazing" ? ... "great" is the usual result)
e) percentage of assembled item was 3 % higher than the usual one (I am talking about item quality)
f) Drink Bespine Port + 9 experimenation
g) Experimented on the line important for harvest rating .. using at first 7 points, then the rest to fill the row ... that was 3 I think ... and used the last one on one of the other rows). It needs to be said that whatever materials I used I was always able to max out the experimentation to the maximum value
h) with this exceptional crafting the percentage of the end result was HIGHER than the previous attempts. I THINK by exactly the value that the assembled item was better than the standard assembly. Thats why I assumbed that the total percentage = assembly percentage + experimentation percentage. And only the experimentation percentage is influenced (and capped) by resource quality. When I speak of percentages here I always mean that experimentation row relevant to the rating of the module (thats the middle one of memory serves right).
i) store manufac schematic
----
j) go kill some weaponsmith and pry the Oni steel from his cold dead fingers (he wont give it easily, mind you !, so prepare for a fight) .... money is NOT enough to get a large stack of Oni ...
k) lie, steal and blackmail to get some Lufini and Grikobium (or pay a bundle)
l) start factory run
m) Sell droids
n) become rich (NOT :-)
OK .... from reading many of the other posts I got the impression that when people tried to recreate this, they did NOT regularily use crafting food and did only craft a limited amount of samples (yes, I know .. these kind of resources are expensive ! .. no one knows that better than me :-) . If this IS a crafting bug, my guess is that its either
a) a statistical anomaly only appearing in a large sample (in my case between 200 and 300 modules)
b) an anomaly related to use of crafting food
It could be that the crafting food shifts the middle of the assembly percentage result bell curve to higher values ... and the top end of this bell curve could then be HIGHER than before ... but you only reach it in 5 % of all assemblies. I think someone in a previous post meant this with his " 100 % --> 105 %" explanation. SOE seems to use lots of bell curves in crafting and slicing ... many average results, and less and less resultson the higher and lower end.
So - if someone REALLY wants to recreate this - I recommend to
a) Make a sample of AT LEAST21 items (5% of 20 = 1 item) ... 100 are better
b) Use crafting food while crafting (expensive .. I know :-)
Well ... thats all I remember about making this item ...
Have fun
Delos Stardust
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And here a possible explanation (does not have to be the right theory):
-------------------------------
>>>>
this is too random, irrational, and non-intuitiveto be intentional IMO.
>>>>
If my theory is correct , than its neither random, counter-intuitive nor irrational. Only RARE (5 % or less).
Better assembly gives higher assembled item percentage. It can be that this percentage is NOT capped by resource quality. It can also be that the use of crafting food allows a HIGHER assembly result than before (shifting result bell curve to higher values). One of these two reasons could explain what happened.
On top of that you experiment -- and the maximum you can get here is influenced and capped by resource quality. About any master crafter achieving a non-failure experimentation result can maxx out this experimentation (I did it with all my modules).
The total quality of the item is determined by the sum of the assembly and experimentation result. If the assembly was exceptional - better than normal - then the finished product can be significantly better than the standard product.
Have fun
Delos
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There is one FACT in that whole story ....
the product that had a much higher rating than the average product had two distinguishing stats:
its inital assembly percentage was higher than usual by a few percent and
its final percentage was higher than usual
which was leading to a higher rating than usual
(again when I say percentage I mean the value/row that determines the harvesting rating).
If anyone wants the relevant screenies of droid or manufac schematics as an e-mail ... let me know
Have fun
Delos
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