Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: After Reading the Posts this Morning, a Compromise Proposal
Ywi
Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:36 am
#14
OK so TH has apparently read this post:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=in_live&message.id=1743#M1743
It sounds like one of the issues we need to address is the power of the granted droid vs. the skill points used. I.e. If the mini-profession only takes 15-20 points we aren't going to see a CL 60 droid cert in that tree.
I think this is a reasonable response from TH and is based on his desire to ensure that droids are balanced with CH pet levels. So basically the discussion we should be having now is do we:
1. Cap combat droids at some arbitrary pet level so that they aren't as powerful as the best pets
2. Add more skill points to the mini-profession allowing higher level droids
3. Do some combination of the two
In my mind I don't see the Rancor equivalent droid in this game. Perhaps I am being short sighted but I would rather have droids in the hands of the masses with a smaller point cost, than massive CL 60 droids in the hands of a few.
So what is tha balance point? I'm not sure exacty except that the min-profession can't take any more points to master than our toughest combat class in the game (in terms of skill points). The bounty hunter takes 217 points to master so I think ~30 points is going to be our cap. 32 points in CH for example gets you to CL 31. Is it reasonable that we could have droidekas which are good combat companions at CL 31? Absolutely. You can get a pet at CL30 now that has about 8K HAM, 30ish % resists, AR1, and 200ish damage. I'd rather the droideka have AR2 and less ham, to be more consistent with the movies (or perhaps even AR3 and much less ham, give them a damage type weakness).
I also think since this is SWG we want to encourage droid use and make the CH more unique. Assuming we fix the problems with droid healing in combat, I would expect most players to spend the 32 points on the droids rather than cratures as there aren't non-combat prerequisites as there are for CH.
So I think I'd rather have this option. Keep the point cost relatively low so any combat profession can participate and get cool droids who can be really useful. This would cap us at around CL30 for a combat droid which I think is OK, but was hoping for more thoughts?
Thanks,
Ywi Odiwovvi
Master Droid Engineer
Corbantis
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=in_live&message.id=1743#M1743
It sounds like one of the issues we need to address is the power of the granted droid vs. the skill points used. I.e. If the mini-profession only takes 15-20 points we aren't going to see a CL 60 droid cert in that tree.
I think this is a reasonable response from TH and is based on his desire to ensure that droids are balanced with CH pet levels. So basically the discussion we should be having now is do we:
1. Cap combat droids at some arbitrary pet level so that they aren't as powerful as the best pets
2. Add more skill points to the mini-profession allowing higher level droids
3. Do some combination of the two
In my mind I don't see the Rancor equivalent droid in this game. Perhaps I am being short sighted but I would rather have droids in the hands of the masses with a smaller point cost, than massive CL 60 droids in the hands of a few.
So what is tha balance point? I'm not sure exacty except that the min-profession can't take any more points to master than our toughest combat class in the game (in terms of skill points). The bounty hunter takes 217 points to master so I think ~30 points is going to be our cap. 32 points in CH for example gets you to CL 31. Is it reasonable that we could have droidekas which are good combat companions at CL 31? Absolutely. You can get a pet at CL30 now that has about 8K HAM, 30ish % resists, AR1, and 200ish damage. I'd rather the droideka have AR2 and less ham, to be more consistent with the movies (or perhaps even AR3 and much less ham, give them a damage type weakness).
I also think since this is SWG we want to encourage droid use and make the CH more unique. Assuming we fix the problems with droid healing in combat, I would expect most players to spend the 32 points on the droids rather than cratures as there aren't non-combat prerequisites as there are for CH.
So I think I'd rather have this option. Keep the point cost relatively low so any combat profession can participate and get cool droids who can be really useful. This would cap us at around CL30 for a combat droid which I think is OK, but was hoping for more thoughts?
Thanks,
Ywi Odiwovvi
Master Droid Engineer
Corbantis
Ywi
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:05 am
#15
Thanks for all the comments so far, keep them coming. I just wanted to clarify something I said in my revision:
"I'm not sure exacty except that the min-profession can't take any more points to master than our toughest combat class in the game (in terms of skill points). The bounty hunter takes 217 points to master so I think ~30 points is going to be our cap"
What I meant to say is that the mini-profession can't take any more points than would be left over after a bounty hunter achieves master. Again, 30ish points seems correct.
Thanks,
Ywi Odiwovvi
Master Droid Engineer
Corbantis
"I'm not sure exacty except that the min-profession can't take any more points to master than our toughest combat class in the game (in terms of skill points). The bounty hunter takes 217 points to master so I think ~30 points is going to be our cap"
What I meant to say is that the mini-profession can't take any more points than would be left over after a bounty hunter achieves master. Again, 30ish points seems correct.
Thanks,
Ywi Odiwovvi
Master Droid Engineer
Corbantis
Thunderheart
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:51 am
#16
AdlerTagmann wrote:
This idea is a good compromise.
I think making the mini droid tree available to MDEs is a good idea.
Perhaps a compromise on level could be say one CL30 or 2 CL15 or 3 CL10 or 6 CL5 out at a time to make even more variety.
Perhaps make the highest droid 75% of the highest pet then use the above to allow more flexibility.
Also allow all players to have ONE non combat capable droid out in addition to their allowed combat droids. MDEs could have 2 non combat droids out at a time.
Just some thoughts
I agree. This direction has the strongest likelihood of success, but it will depend on a couple of things. It has to be put in so it can be balanced with the combat system as it will be and not as it is (that makes assessing things kind of tricky).
Secondly, handling droids is bigger than a single tree, but smaller than a whole profession. Technologically whether its 1 tree, 2 trees or the typical 4 trees is going to have a bearing on things (as it relates to coding the changes).
Going forward, keep mulling these things over. Runesabre had to go out of town on personal business but I know you guys really want to voice your opinions on this (though in reality we are a week or two away from any kind of development).
Im working on the In Dev post now. I would encourage you folks to play devil's advocate with the arguments and look at everything from all angles.
Hillslayer
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:57 am
#17
You can set up the profession in 1 tree for now and have someone work on the droid xp system. Then switch the specials and such over to the droid itself instead of the player.
KzinKiller
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:58 am
#18
I agree. This direction has the strongest likelihood of success ...
Gahhhh, he's still doing it!
Quit editorializing! You have NO IDEA what has a likelihood of success, and it isn't your job to evaluate it! You're supposed to synthesize customer comments and pass them on to the technical staff, not make value judgments you're clearly not qualified to make!
Please just stop! You have no credibility when you make such statements TH, and it totally distracts you from the job you're supposed to be doing. Tell us what you know (about the dev process) and pass on what we think, but quit adding your editorial input, it is not appropriate or relevant.
Hillslayer
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:59 am
#19
Kzin, I hate to say it but he does know the devs best. He could be more careful with times and dates and threads, but he does know the devs better then us.
DaQuilla
Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:59 am
#20
Making Combat Droids only available to Master DEs and up is not a good idea if you read what DEs wanted ... they want a market for their droids ... if only MDEs could use them there would be no market as they would make their own droids.
I don't know, but I'd maybe try to fit the droid certs into an excisting "combat" profession that didn't really have that combat skills up till now ... the Squad Leader ...
This profession is not a novice profession, in fact is has a skill tree and a 15 SP expensive novice more as requirement than the CH ... but it would certainly make sense to give a Squad Leader who is supposed to control groups the abbility to call a number of cl10 droids equalling up to the power of a cl70 pet CHs can call ... that should be rather balanced and might fit into the present "In Concept" Discussion
KzinKiller
Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:05 pm
#21
Hills, I don't disagree ... when he says "Runesabre thinks" or "GreenMarine thinks" then great, that is useful input. But when he says "I know _____ will never work" it is not only inappropriate, but past experience (Cities) tells us that TH simply is not qualified to make such statements. He is just as likely as any customer to be 100% wrong in such statements, and if he is letting his personal beliefs act as a filter in communication between customers and devs, then he is failing at the primary function of his job, at least as that job has been explained to us.
BlueMorgoth
Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:06 pm
#22
Kzin, you're wrong. He is not a one way street. He is two way. One half of his job is to take our information to him. The other half is to bring the dev information to us. If he posts about whether something is more likely to have a success than not, you better listen because he is speaking with authority on it. You may not like what he is saying because it disagrees with what you want, but you had better take note of it.
Aldaron
Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:08 pm
#23
KzinKiller wrote:
I agree. This direction has the strongest likelihood of success ...
Gahhhh, he's still doing it!
Quit editorializing! You have NO IDEA what has a likelihood of success, and it isn't your job to evaluate it! You're supposed to synthesize customer comments and pass them on to the technical staff, not make value judgments you're clearly not qualified to make!
Please just stop! You have no credibility when you make such statements TH, and it totally distracts you from the job you're supposed to be doing. Tell us what you know (about the dev process) and pass on what we think, but quit adding your editorial input, it is not appropriate or relevant.
you are working for SOE too?
orwhy do you know his job and competence so well?
he actually talks to the devs, so it is his decision alone if he's editorializing or not.
so far as i can see it, its rather you who lacks the competence to review his duties.
believe him or not, but stop lecturing him and give us all a break here...
Ywi
Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:10 pm
#24
Guys,
Please, if you'd like to discuss communication or something like that, please do it somewhere else. I'm hoping to get a few more ideas around this particular profession idea, be sure to read the entire thread as it has already been amended a few times based on other DE feedback.
Thanks,
Ywi Odiwovvi
Master Droid Engineer
Corbantis
Please, if you'd like to discuss communication or something like that, please do it somewhere else. I'm hoping to get a few more ideas around this particular profession idea, be sure to read the entire thread as it has already been amended a few times based on other DE feedback.
Thanks,
Ywi Odiwovvi
Master Droid Engineer
Corbantis
KzinKiller
Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:10 pm
#25
Wrong focus and I don't want to flame anybody, especially TH who I think is being asked to do a nearly impossible job ... all I'll say is that I wish past experience gave me any reason to have confidence in any statement about game mechanics that he expresses from his personal opinions ... but it doesn't.
Ywi
Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:14 pm
#26
Thunderheart wrote:
AdlerTagmann wrote:
This idea is a good compromise.
I think making the mini droid tree available to MDEs is a good idea.
Perhaps a compromise on level could be say one CL30 or 2 CL15 or 3 CL10 or 6 CL5 out at a time to make even more variety.
Perhaps make the highest droid 75% of the highest pet then use the above to allow more flexibility.
Also allow all players to have ONE non combat capable droid out in addition to their allowed combat droids. MDEs could have 2 non combat droids out at a time.
Just some thoughtsI agree. This direction has the strongest likelihood of success, but it will depend on a couple of things. It has to be put in so it can be balanced with the combat system as it will be and not as it is (that makes assessing things kind of tricky).
Secondly, handling droids is bigger than a single tree, but smaller than a whole profession. Technologically whether its 1 tree, 2 trees or the typical 4 trees is going to have a bearing on things (as it relates to coding the changes).
Going forward, keep mulling these things over. Runesabre had to go out of town on personal business but I know you guys really want to voice your opinions on this (though in reality we are a week or two away from any kind of development).
Im working on the In Dev post now. I would encourage you folks to play devil's advocate with the arguments and look at everything from all angles.
Thunderheart,
Agreed on the specific numbers being prone to change. I was just throwing some numbers out there which seem to indicate that we can get cool droids without 60+ points. My major consideration, and one I don't think we should waver on, is that all combat professions (in addition to MDEs who finish the mini-prof) should be able to use the droids. This means you are gated to a maximum of 33 points (all that is left after mastering bounty hunter). This still can give us around CL30 (based on current combat balance).
Thanks,
Ywi Odiwovvi
Master Droid Engineer
Corbantis