Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Drashk's Droid Decay System Version 1.1 (Updated)
Here are a few changes that could be made to Version 1.0. The biggest changes are to the Decay system, Restoration Kits, and Vitality vs Recharge rate. Please comment and make suggestions on what is changed or what needs to be changed.
Droid Decay
For every 20 points of Vitality that a droid loses, it gains a negative modifer on its charge status. This system would effect all droids and make it so that a droid either needs to be repaired orreplaced when it loses Vitality points. The negative modifer is applied to the actual battery charge, not the charge timer.
IE - 3 droidsare charged using standard droid batteries.Droid A has 80 / 100 Vitality, Droid B has 67 / 80 Vitality, and Droid C has 30 / 50 Vitality. Droid A would have a charge of 90%, Droid B would have a charge of 70% and Droid C would have a charge of 50%. The same 3 droids are chargedusing aDPG with a Power of 600% (or roughly 6 hours of standard use). Droid A would have a charge of 540% (or 5.4 hours), Droid B would have a charge of 420% (or 4.2 hours), and Droid C would have a charge of 300% (or 3 hours).
This is a very degenerative systemin that as the droid becomes more damaged, the droid's rate of needing to be recharged would increase, which would lead to the droid decaying faster.
- 80 / XVitality= - 10% Full Charge
- 60 / XVitality= - 30% Full Charge
- 40 / XVitality = - 50% Full Charge
- 20 / XVitality = - 70% Full Charge
- 00 / XVitality = Droid Disabled (same as Low Power status until fixed)
Droid Restoration Kit
The Droid Restoration Kit allows anyone to repair some of their droids Vitality loss, associated with combat and charging. The number of points that this kit can repair is based upon the kits Power rating. The kit can repair 1 to 10 points of Vitality loss per use. On a successful roll,X number of damaged Vitalitypoints are restored. On a failed roll, X number of Vitality points are permanently lost. On a partial success, 1/2 X Vitality points are restored and 1/2 X Max Vitality is lost. (X is equal to the Power rating.) The Droid Restoration Kit would use the same roll that is used to repair weapons and armor, which has a fairly high rate of failure.
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1 Diagnostic Circuit -
1 Capacitor Discharge Unit -
1 Unit Delivery Cartridge -
1 Redundant Power Supply -
1 Repair Unit Casing -
20 Units Metal -
15 Units Lowe Grade Ore -
15 Units Chemical - Experimental Charges: OQ 66% UT 33%
- Experimental PowerOQ 66% Con 33%
Droid Reconditioning
Once a droid's Vitalty drops to 0/0 the droid is considered destroyed. As long as the droid as 1 point of restorable Vitality (IE 0/1) the droid has a possiblity of being Reconditioned by a Droid Engineer. A Novice (or Master) DE would needto use aReconditioning Tool to completely restore a Droid to full Vitality. Using this skill on a damaged droid is not 100% fail safe and is based upon the Droid Customization skill and the amount of Vitality damage. The higher the percentage of permanent Vitality damage there is, the lower the percentage chance of successfully repairing the droid. To restrict the use of Reconditioning, this could be a onetime only skill, per droid. Droid Reconditioning is an all or nothing proceedure. The Droid Reconditioning Tool is a limted schematic available through certain Junk Dealers, or a DE specific quest.
Droid Batteries
The use of a standard droid battery, craftable by an Artisan, drains away at the Vitality of a droid. Standard batteries drain Vitality at a rate of 1 point per3 charges. A standard model droid would have a shelf life of 204 total hours of usage, if the droid's Vitality is never repaired. The droid's life could be extended byat least double with the usage of Restoration Kits.
Droid Power Generator
This Novice DE (or Master Artisan)crafted item offers a droid owner the choice of a longer battery charge, at the expense of a faster decay rate. The DPG would charge a droid for up to 10 hours at a time, at the cost of3 Vitality points per charge. The DPG would have 2 experimenation fields, Power and Charges,and would have the following schematic-
- Power = 500 to 1000% charge. (5 to 10 hours)
- Charges =5 to50 charges.
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1 Power Core Unit -
1 Micro Sensor Suite -
1 Redundant Power Supply -
1 Capacitor Discharge Unit -
25Units Copper -
25Units Radioactive Power -
25Units Chemical -
25Units Steel - Experimental Charges: OQ 33% UT 33% Mal 33%
- Experimental Power: Con 100%
Message Edited by Drashk on 06-30-2004 06:44 PM
Herbsman wrote:
Yeah well if my probots start getting less HAM because their vitality is low then I'm off droids for good. I personally think that alot of others will as well. We'll just see another Pokemon phase.
thats funny, because this has been the case a good long time now (maybe since release, I didn't really notice it till around september/october though). A droid, like all pets, loses vitality each time it is DB'd. As the vitality goes down, so does the max HAM. I think the HAM will drop to something like 60% of its normal max if the vitality gets low enough.
Anyway.... lets run some numbers (I'm a big numbers fan). First of all we have to determine what the optimal turnover rate for a droid is. Lets take a couple different scenarios here. (note, I'm running all these numbers under the assumption that battery use is better tied to droid use, so its all based on 1/2 hour per battery. I'm also using a stepped algorithm instead of gradual for vitality vs battery charge since its late and thats more math than I want to get into.)
Scenario 1, the lazy scenario (you don't attempt to repair the droid in any way shape or form):
I'd say for this scenario the droid would be gone in a month. Yes, it may be longer than the corresponding situation with weapons/armor, but I think those decay too fast anyway. so we've got 31 days to kill off the droid. If the batteries decay at a rate of 1 vitality point per 2 batteries and you use the droid for 2 hours a day (I'd consider that a casual player pace) the droid hits 0 vitality in 34 days. If there isn't any way to repair vitality this would work in my opinion, but otherwise its going to be too slow.
Scenario 2, the ideal scenario (repair vitality every 20 points, which brings your max down 10 and your current up 10 (90/90, 80/80 etc...)
This is probably a pretty average rate of repair, so lets run these numbers. Say we want the same decay time and the same amount of time played per day. This time instead of using the decay vs battery charge scheme drashk posted, I'm going to play with a simpler 90/x = 90%, 80/x = 80%, ..., 10/x = 10% rate. Here we end up with 80 hours of droid life, though due to the decay system most likely the owner will get a new droid after70 hours (after that they're putting in 4 battery charges just to get up to 100%). This may be too slow still, I don't know. Numbers are easy to tweak though. assume that a 100% charge lasts for 45 minutes instead of the 30 I had guestimated there, and drop the decay rate to 1 vit. point per battery and you end up with the droid going away after 60 hours (though again, it will probably be after about 50 that they toss it). I'd say that rate is about right, though if we go with something that tight you might need to take out the decay from combat, or combat droids would be gone in no time flat.
Anyway, there's my ramblings for the night... if anyone wants me to post all the numbers to get to wherever it is I got yell at me, I've got them written down somewhere.
Message Edited by Jenden on 06-30-2004 11:56 PM
It's only aimed to combat droid.
That's the only droids on wich it's balanced.
And real combat droid is something we might have in a year.
Something that doesn't exist, and something not everyone want to see.
I would sugest that you wait until we have at least some informations on what it will be before trying to make a decay system that take into account something that doesn't exist and on wich we don't have any idea of how it will be.
I think we should focus on a decay system that works and is balanced for our current droids and adapt that later if needed.
Concerning the relation with artisan, I know that we depend alot on the MAster artisan, but my point is :
Engineering 4 is required to be a DE, from novice Artisan to engineering 4, the only item we can build that is related to droids is droid batteries, and it is engineering 1.
I think that a more complex (but less than your DPG) battery should be added at engineering 3 or 4.
Making those batteries works 10 times longer than the current one but at the cost of a decay is good enough.
That won't cut the market for the curent batteries and allow the people hat don't want to loose their synthetic friends to do so.
Lowering the power availablity depending of the vitality, again, it is very complex and very annoying.
Lost of people won't even try to understand it and run away from the droids.
The decay on droids should be slow, much slower than on weapons, but not forever either.
I think a good balance would be a VK.
That is one of the weapons that you don't have ot buy a new one unless you want to. They do have a decay, and don't last forever, but last for a very long long time.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
1. It's much to complex. I'm a DE and I had to read it a couple of times to get it. Complexity will scare away people.
The system in itself is not that complex. The way that I have it written out appears to be complex, but only so that it can be presented to the DEVs in a form that sets forth the rules on how the system would work. Here is what the system would look like to the general public
All droid functions are tied to power status. Droid Battery use results in 1 point of Vitality loss every 3 charges. DPG use results in 3 points of Vitality loss every charge. As a droid loses Vitality, it loses its Maxium Charge capacity. A Restoration Kit can be used to repair Vitality, but will not work 100% of the time. When a Droid hits 0/0 Vitality, it no longer functions.
2. I don't think that the vitality on a droid should affect it's effectiveness. Meaning, don't lower it's HAM and such. Keep the Droid working fine until it blows up. The more of a pain in the ass droids are, the less they will be used.
This system is already in place with droids and creature pets, however the average driod user never sees their droid take this much Vitality damage. Linking Vitality to the Maximum Charge rate would help to speed along the process of droid decay, without actually damaging the droid.
3. Your decay rate is much to slow. Take away the negative parts DURING decay and speed it up. Compared to everything else in SWG, droids are cheap as hell.
Don't shy away from having droid decay due to money issues. Credits are not hard to get. Spending 70k on a droid that will last 2 months, yet pay for itself in 2 days is easy.
This system is designed to apply to both combat and non-combat droids. If the system is sped up faster than it has been laid out, Combat droids will suffer, which will only help to shoot ourselves in the foot when higher level combat droids are released. Any decay system that is designed must be able to accomidate both Utility and Combat Droids.
4. All the reasons above add up into adding a lot of negativity and complexity to droids. If were going to add Droid decay, keep it simple, and give the customers something in return.
**My best solution is a mix. Keep the current system in place for people who are attached to their droid and like batteries. They can keep using batteries if they want. Maybe up battery burn rate a little.
Then add an item that goes into a droid in an extra "slot" so it doesn't take module spots. This Droid Power Core, stops batteries from being used on the droid. The DPC will power the droid for about 200 hours (open to change) of use. No downside or lowered function for the droid it simply stops working. You can pull stuff out of the Item Storage, but you can't put stuff in.
Majority of the Player base want some kind of control in their gaming environment. Having a droid that only will last for X number of hours completely takes away this control. A system that allows a Player the ability to have a choice on how their long their droid will live, through the use of DPGs or Batteries, would appeal to a great number of droid owners. The suggestion of adding a Droid Power Core also does not address the issue of all currently owned droids. There would be some return sales, from those that want to buy the newest gizmo, but for the most part what we would see is a repeat of what sales are looking like now, a few months after our new Gizmos. A decay system that effects all droids is the only way to ensure that there will always be repeat business from people who want to own a droid.
Gavvot wrote:
I think I see the problem with this proposal now. It's only aimed to combat droid.
Re-read the system. Combat droids are only one part of the equation. The system will effect Utility droids the most, since they are the typical droid that never has to be replaced. The introduction of any droid decay system will have the largest impact on Utility droids.
That's the only droids on wich it's balanced. And real combat droid is something we might have in a year. Something that doesn't exist, and something not everyone want to see.
I wouldn't be so sure that its this far away. You must keep in mind that the DEVs have already put some work into higher-end combat droids and maybe even a certain DC profession as well. Just because nothing was released does not mean that they haven't done any work on it.
I would sugest that you wait until we have at least some informations on what it will be before trying to make a decay system that take into account something that doesn't exist and on wich we don't have any idea of how it will be.I think we should focus on a decay system that works and is balanced for our current droids and adapt that later if needed.
This isn't the type of thinking that the DEVs are going to want to follow. The DEVs will want a system that doesn't have to be adapted a few months down the line to accomidate higher end droids. This would make it so that they have to do double the work load, even if its only relatively small changes.
Concerning the relation with artisan, I know that we depend alot on the MAster artisan, but my point is : Engineering 4 is required to be a DE, from novice Artisan to engineering 4, the only item we can build that is related to droids is droid batteries, and it is engineering 1.
I think that a more complex (but less than your DPG) battery should be added at engineering 3 or 4. Making those batteries works 10 times longer than the current one but at the cost of a decay is good enough. That won't cut the market for the curent batteries and allow the people hat don't want to loose their synthetic friends to do so.
The DPG, as laid out, would appear to be at least a Complexity of 22. The highest Complexity item that is available to a Master Artisan is 17. The Power Core Unit has a Complexity of 18 by itself. You state that droid batteries are the only droid related item for Artisan. This is actually incorrect. Electronic Mem Mods, Electronic GP Mods, Control Units, and Micro Sensor Suites are knee deep in being related to DE. Droid Batteries are the only stand alone product that an Artisan can sell that is related to DE. This is one of those things that makes DE unique to the other crafting professions and should stay this way, IMHO.
Lowering the power availablity depending of the vitality, again, it is very complex and very annoying. Lost of people won't even try to understand it and run away from the droids.
People won't have to understand it. The only people that should understand the system are the people who want to know everything that they can about droids. Do you know of anyone that isn't a DE that understands how Medical modules are stacked? See the above inblue of what the typical customer needs to know about the decay system.
OckVofad wrote:
Ok overall i like the concept. We are using existing code and the existing system in order to do this.
Regarding its complexity; it is a complex system but Drashk is presenting it here in the same way it would be presented to the Devs.
All the player base has to understand is battery usage = droid lifespan. The more a droid is used the less it will be around. Pretty simple to me.
Thanks Ock for seeing through the DEV speak. I have been trying to present the system in a way that would be presentable to the DEVs. The next version of this concept will include an abridged version that will explain the system to the average droid user and those that only want to know how the system would effect their droids.
Sorry about the long post...I just wanted to reply to some of the comments without making three seperate posts to do so.
This is also why this system is not totally geared towards combat droids. Utility droids such as medical droids go through a good amount of batteries as well.This changewill directly effectutility droids vitality and they will become useless over time.
Not as fast as a combat droid but they still will eventually die.
No matter what system is used, it would have to be one that could be applied to both Utility and Combat droids. Trying to find a balance between the two is the most difficult part, but I just had a slight brain strom on how to tackle this system as well, though it will make things a little more complex, I think.
Ifthis change happenswitha combat droidonly lasting 2 months and a utility droid only maybe 3-4 months then perhaps HAM should not be effected. I could go either way on that issue. But ifvitality is already coded that way then we may just have to leave it as is.
I would imagine that the DEVs could link this system to some other type of function instead of Vitality. I agree that effecting HAM, as originally listed in version 1.0 would not be of a great benefit, but it is what is currently in use with pets and droids. Instead of droids having Vitality, they could instead have Integrity rating.
Im fine with the Power generator and the Restoration kits as presented. Im not sure if the generator will fly with the dev team but who knows.
Now my main problem is with the Reconditioning kit. I understand this is here for people who are attached to their droids. However, if I have to run the quest, create the item,do the fix myself I would have to charge this person a pretty penny to Recondition that droid. Probably over 100k is my guess.
If there really is a demand for this feature I would make the schematic drop from a known quest or make it lootable from a creature that anyone (of suffient power) can kill. That way I dont have to charge for my time spent doing the quest. If someone really wants their droid reconditioned they can get the schematic themselves. I have a hard time believing someone is going to pay100k to fix their R3 that costs 65-75k.
The idea of a DE specific quest sounded good to me, since there isn't any DE specific L3WTOne possiblilty would be to add the loot schematic to the Droid Cave quest on Lok, or one of the crafters quests that we are supposed to be getting sometime soon, or maybe even something to deal with Jawas. Not everyone will want to go on the quest or Recondition someones droid, but its the fact that there is the option to do so. Just having a DE loot item, or quest, will make a few DE a little happier.
Message Edited by Drashk on 07-01-2004 02:03 PM
Thanks Straker. I thought of it whileI was trying to comment on a few of the previous posts. Not only would it make the armor itself worthwhile, but it would have a major effect on armor stacking.
This system isn't supposed to be a quick fix and its not designed to be added any time soon. The concept here is setting up something that can be implemented during the period of time when the Droid Commander profession, or its replacement, is added. With JTL and the other items that the DEVs have on their plate right now, we will be lucky to see the Structure Mods fixed before JTL is released. I'm trying to put together some ground work for a proposal that could be brought before the DEVs for them to chew over and think about while they brainstorm about a plan of action for after JTL hits Live. JTL is taking up a lot of resources, between the Art Department and dedicated programmers. We won't be seeing many changes, if any, made to our profession, no matter how small they are, for many months to come.
We know that some of the Combat droids have already had work done on them and that the ground work for some kind of system to bring them in has been started. Unless the DE community takes an active role in making suggests now, for the production time 6-12 months down the line, we won't be able to have a hand in shaping where our profession will go.
The Decay system is only the beginning thread, in a series of threads, aimed at bringing together ideas from the community that could possibly help shape the future of not only our profession, but also the Droid Commander profession.
Drashk wrote:
Gavvot wrote:
I think I see the problem with this proposal now. It's only aimed to combat droid.
Re-read the system. Combat droids are only one part of the equation. The system will effect Utility droids the most, since they are the typical droid that never has to be replaced. The introduction of any droid decay system will have the largest impact on Utility droids.
Even concidering the high end combat droid that will exist one day or another, I don't see how a decay system based on battery use AND death can be balanced anyway. Maybe the lost of vitality on death of the droid should go. That would make the things more simple.
That's the only droids on wich it's balanced. And real combat droid is something we might have in a year. Something that doesn't exist, and something not everyone want to see.
I wouldn't be so sure that its this far away. You must keep in mind that the DEVs have already put some work into higher-end combat droids and maybe even a certain DC profession as well. Just because nothing was released does not mean that they haven't done any work on it.
Apparently, the dev work are mainly based on new graphic stuff. I'm pretty sure the cool droid models exist, I have some serious doubt they have done alot of work on thebalance different than a copy-paste of CH.
I would sugest that you wait until we have at least some informations on what it will be before trying to make a decay system that take into account something that doesn't exist and on wich we don't have any idea of how it will be.I think we should focus on a decay system that works and is balanced for our current droids and adapt that later if needed.
This isn't the type of thinking that the DEVs are going to want to follow. The DEVs will want a system that doesn't have to be adapted a few months down the line to accomidate higher end droids. This would make it so that they have to do double the work load, even if its only relatively small changes.
Depend of the way they work. Usual waterfall approach where you analyse the problem, make a concept, develop and then launch don't work. It's an old one. Devs now should know that whatever they code, it will change in the future. Beside, I don't see how we could balance something that again doesn't exist. And even if does in a hidden way, well we certainly don't have the info to make something really usefull.
Concerning the relation with artisan, I know that we depend alot on the MAster artisan, but my point is : Engineering 4 is required to be a DE, from novice Artisan to engineering 4, the only item we can build that is related to droids is droid batteries, and it is engineering 1.
I think that a more complex (but less than your DPG) battery should be added at engineering 3 or 4. Making those batteries works 10 times longer than the current one but at the cost of a decay is good enough. That won't cut the market for the curent batteries and allow the people hat don't want to loose their synthetic friends to do so.
The DPG, as laid out, would appear to be at least a Complexity of 22. The highest Complexity item that is available to a Master Artisan is 17. The Power Core Unit has a Complexity of 18 by itself. You state that droid batteries are the only droid related item for Artisan. This is actually incorrect. Electronic Mem Mods, Electronic GP Mods, Control Units, and Micro Sensor Suites are knee deep in being related to DE. Droid Batteries are the only stand alone product that an Artisan can sell that is related to DE. This is one of those things that makes DE unique to the other crafting professions and should stay this way, IMHO.
Yeah, I know the complexity is high. That is a problem, The Power Core Unit should go. Otherwise I have some very serious doubt anyone will build them in the first place. I never made a power droid for that simple reason that I'm not an architect and finding some of those is a real pain (and I mean it).
Artisan is a basic profession,it's purposeis to give an idea of how will be the elite prof. Leveling it you have an idea of what it is to be an architect, a tailor an armorsmith or a weaponsmith. You have no idea how it will be to be a DE.
Master artisan stuff are different, they aren't there to give you an idea of what's coming next. They're there to give a reward to the people that are Master artisan, nothing else.
And those sub-component aren't DE only, and the fact that they are in Master Artisan box is really really wrong IMHO.
Lowering the power availablity depending of the vitality, again, it is very complex and very annoying. Lost of people won't even try to understand it and run away from the droids.
People won't have to understand it. The only people that should understand the system are the people who want to know everything that they can about droids. Do you know of anyone that isn't a DE that understands how Medical modules are stacked? See the above inblue of what the typical customer needs to know about the decay system.
People don't care about how medical module stack because they see on the final product the result. And it won't change later. It is there and don't move. Weapon or armor effectiveness doesn't change until the condition is really really low. Not before.
Making the use of power non-linear will be I think quite alot of work for something nobody will like.
People know that a battery last 1 hour or 30 minutes for entertainer and auto-repair. They won't like the idea of know that a charge will last something between 10 hours and 10 minutes without knowing before the power run out. And we know that showing that kind of information isn't really what the dev are good at.