Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Have the developers have moved on? All we wanted...
CaixCatab
Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:39 am
#14
"If" the community is split?
There's 32 different professions, and it's fairly obvious everyone wants their profession fixed, and in a lot of cases a fix they suggest would be better suited for another profession, would take things away from another profession, or without taking anything away simply giving to much to a certain profession and any number of other solutions making the profession glitter stronger than others .
There's no "if" in whether the community is split, but it's not split like a cake, but the way light will split in a multi-faceted crystal. Try a sunrise through one of those big old decorativecieling hung thing with polished glass-crystal thingies hanging in (... the english word eludes me)that'll project light spectra's all over the walls.
Picking a side in that fray is not an option, because there's too many sides. And if they did pick a side, the odds that they'd pick our side is decidedly against us.
(... and there will be no funny punchlines regarding telling Corellians the odds 
)
)Short version; "screw balance" can set /DEgodmodeON or toss us into an even deeper pit than we are in now, and the chances we'll get the godmode is lower than the chance we'll end up inthe pit.
Argonlaser
Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:07 am
#15
Edsoni DE Wanderhome
Pallida wrote:
CaixCatab wrote:
"If" the community is split?
There's 32 different professions, and it's fairly obvious everyone wants their profession fixed, and in a lot of cases a fix they suggest would be better suited for another profession, would take things away from another profession, or without taking anything away simply giving to much to a certain profession and any number of other solutions making the profession glitter stronger than others .
There's no "if" in whether the community is split, but it's not split like a cake, but the way light will split in a multi-faceted crystal. Try a sunrise through one of those big old decorativecieling hung thing with polished glass-crystal thingies hanging in (... the english word eludes me)that'll project light spectra's all over the walls.
Chandelier? (and it's French)
Prism?and it is Latin from the Greek Prisma meaning "anything sawn off" or "to saw" And as long as I stuck my nose in here. Light is not technically "split" by a prism, it spreads out the wavelenghts of light so you can see all the colors. Light radiation is continious, from below X-ray (high energy, "bluish") to well beyond Radio (low energy "redish"). Blue lightsabers have higher energy...
Light intensity goes from the Dark side (no photons) to the Light side (many photons) and can be any color. The Dev's tend to be unenlightened and can pull players to the Dark side. Be careful....anger not...
Picking a side in that fray is not an option, because there's too many sides. And if they did pick a side, the odds that they'd pick our side is decidedly against us.
(... and there will be no funny punchlines regarding telling Corellians the odds
Short version; "screw balance" can set /DEgodmodeON or toss us into an even deeper pit than we are in now, and the chances we'll get the godmode is lower than the chance we'll end up inthe pit.
Kilarny
Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:36 am
#17
/bump
I'm slightly less negative today - probably the fact that it's Friday and I'm wearing a happy, colorful Hawaiian shirt. And I just got another guy in Hawaii into my PA.
Mmmm....Global coverage.
-Kilarny
Ares Corporation
SirVimes
Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:46 am
#18
I hear the jaws music playing. Dun duh....dun duh....dun duh dun duh dun duh dun.
Lonkley
Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:48 am
#19
CaixCatab wrote:
Picking a side in that fray is not an option, because there's too many sides. And if they did pick a side, the odds that they'd pick our side is decidedly against us.
You're right! What were we thinking! We cant let the Devs decide what to do! Its much better just to let the players decide.
What the hell are you talking about? Of course the devs have to pick a side. They are the gatekeepers of what can and can not be possilbe or beneficial, and they have to do what they say (well in theory). At best your suggestion leaves it so NO ONE makes a decision.
CaixCatab
Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:06 am
#20
Chandelier? (and it's French)
That's it, thank you.
Lonkley, what I meant was, they can't grab an idea from one profession that would be benefecial to that profession without looking at how it would affect other professions/systems/thingies. They have to take into consideration how other "sides" would be affected. Which is what they tend to sum up with balance. Did I clear it up, or confuse even more?
Shian_Tavkin
Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:00 pm
#21
CaixCatab wrote:
Chandelier? (and it's French)
That's it, thank you.
Lonkley, what I meant was, they can't grab an idea from one profession that would be benefecial to that profession without looking at how it would affect other professions/systems/thingies. They have to take into consideration how other "sides" would be affected. Which is what they tend to sum up with balance. Did I clear it up, or confuse even more?
Until we get a definition of balance, more specifically exactly what was 'unbalanced' in Sodan's proposal then you or anyone else is whistling in the wind.
I dont think they dare tell us - but thats my own opinion.
CaixCatab
Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:59 pm
#22
However, the DE Hybrid proposal simply cannot be balanced. The issue that turns up is that having the benefits of two professions jammed into one profession isn't balanced. When all was said and done, it seems there wasn't a combination that would have allowed DEs to be a crafting/combat hybrid in a balanced manner. And, yes, the proposal was discussed at length and in detail by TH and the other Devs.
Simply put, giving a fully "functional" (... It's subjective) crafting profession, fully functional combat abilitiesmakes the profession too "expansive". Looking at smuggler, another crafter/combat kind of hybrid, it has a little bit of both but isn't actual "good" at them. Their crafting was specifically designed to be limited, where as ours was designed for a pure crafter class.
... they have told us. They just won't do it in person.
Shian_Tavkin
Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:52 pm
#23
Caix
Much as I respect your opinion - it is only your opinion
Really, I must restate it, I want the Devs, just for once, to step in here and explain balance to us all. Tell us why Sodans proposal was not balanced - exactly why. It's a bit like a funeral I suppose, you have a fixed point to cut off the old and renew..hopefully with some new understanding.
So, thanks for the quote..but it isn't enough. Blood, sweat and tears went into that proposal from most of the community..it's just not good enough to say 'nope..its not balanced' and leave it at that.
Especially so because all and sundry have their own opinion on why it wasn't balanced, based on their own agendas
We none of us know the truth..I would have thought even the Devs might have a soft spot somewhere and see that communicating what they believe balance is - is not just a DE thing, it would be of value to the whole SWG community. Think how it would focus and steer future proposals in ALL professions if we knew for a fact what balance actually IS.
If they cared enough, they would post the answer.
Shian_Tavkin
Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:36 am
#24
CaixCatab wrote:
I can't say I'm tracking here. Sure, it would be nice if the devs actually told us in person, but we HAVE an answer. Having the benefits of two professions jammed into one profession isn't balanced. Using a dictionary on balance;
- A state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces.
The hybrid proposal would've made the DE profession too powerful, by introducing combat capabilites to a fully developed crafting class. It's not the most elaborate answer ever given, but they're not just saying "nope, it's not balanced".
Caix, we have NEVER had an answer on thisfrom a Dev....and not only that but if you believe you are playing a 'fully developed crafting class' then you are playing with different code to me.
Anyone who can argue that we are in any way 'a fully developed crafting class' does not understand the crux of the problem with DE, and certainly does not play one. We are broken as a class, have always been broken, do not equate with any other crafting class in terms of our goods being 'needed' (or even being wanted by the masses) and are therefore at best 'an underdeveloped crafting class'
And its because of the vast shortfall in our class development that I and others believed there was room for the Hybrid without upsetting balance, we even proposed that the Devs decide the CL of the droids we would use to ensure they could tweak the balance as needed as time went on. Remember, we were talking CL35 ish droids, not 70
So, thanks for the use of your dictionary, but it really doesn't address the overall problem which is, as always with this Dev team, a communication problem. They know how to code, they just dont have the foggiest idea on how to manage customer expectations, and they do not understand the need for free flowing communications.
CaixCatab
Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:44 am
#25
Caix, we have NEVER had an answer on thisfrom a Dev....
Our correspondent may not be a dev, but I'd like to think that when making official announcements he won't go around talking about issues he makes up himself, but issues the devs came up with.
and not only that but if you believe you are playing a 'fully developed crafting class' then you are playing with different code to me.
I'm playing a class where the originial intention, orignial coding and design, was geared towards DE being a fully developed crafting class.
That fails because of implemention (hence my cute little "(... it's subjective)" the first time I mentioned DE as a fully developed crafting class, which I didn't think I had to repeat but obviously should have. My mistake) on a number of points.
And its because of the vast shortfall in our class development that I and others believed there was room for the Hybrid without upsetting balance,
So our crafting would be left in it's usual semi-miserable state, combat capabailities introduced and then the combat capabilites would bedownscaled over time as our crafting was brought up to spec. Or else, our crafting capabilities would be left semi-miserable and the combat kept constant atsome balanced level.
... or did I completely misunderstand that part of your post?
So, thanks for the use of your dictionary...
.... happy to help 
....
....but it really doesn't address the overall problem which is, as always with this Dev team, a communication problem. They know how to code, they just dont have the foggiest idea on how to manage customer expectations, and they do not understand the need for free flowing communications.
I agree. That publish 7 poster was ill-thought out and lack of official "no NEW combat droids, just combat capabilities added to existing droids" was worse. Not to mention the notion that staying out of here would improve the overall tone, which is downright silly.
... but in this particular case, we were given an answer, albeitby a proxy and not very detailed, but an answer.
TheRealTK421
Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:12 am
#26
/bow
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Caix, we have NEVER had an answer on thisfrom a Dev....
If I get them to post something on this, it will never end, Shian. They will make a point and DEs will ask for more info (to try and workaround whatever issue the Devs state). It's a never-ending cycle. In this case, I seriously believe that it's easier to simply accept that they are basically saying...
"No, this won't balance properly."...and leave it at that. I know you're gonna jump down my throat for that but it's true.
I mean, think about it. If I get them to post something, will YOU leave this issue alone? Just imagine how many DEs will keep on reviving this issue over and over ad nauseum. We need to move forward on some things, Shian. Let a dead horse be for once, we must....
Anyone who can argue that we are in any way 'a fully developed crafting class' does not understand the crux of the problem with DE, and certainly does not play one.
Are we "fully developed"? Perhaps not. However, adding in the Hybrid stuff would have likely meant that we got NO more crafting changes additions. If it was already unbalanced, how could they have added either more crafting stuff or more combat stuff without having it be even further unbalanced down the line?
This is a no-win situation, Shian.
If we'd have gotten Hybrid as we asked for, we likely would have had a watered down version of a crafting profession grafted to a watered down version of a combat role. In both cases, we'd all be unhappy with our situation and have NO way to move forward (other than undoing the changes that got us watered down to begin with...).
We are broken as a class, have always been broken, do not equate with any other crafting class in terms of our goods being 'needed' (or even being wanted by the masses) and are therefore at best 'an underdeveloped crafting class'
"Need" is based on a player's playstyle et al. If I happen to be a 'pure' crafter/merchant person, I don't "need" a gun or weapon. Do I?
No.
I wouldn't need armor or Chef food or a myriad of other things. So, there's no "need" for certain types of products in the game, depending on how you choose to play.
A lot of people don't like to face that....but it's true. I know it doesn't make life easier for us, it just means we need more focus to have products that are more attractive to a wider variety of players. And....we will be getting these in Publish 8 (and beyond).
So, thanks for the use of your dictionary, but it really doesn't address the overall problem which is, as always with this Dev team, a communication problem.
Well, I'm doing what I can to make this better. I just don't think they could communicate these issues to the DEs at large in a way that would put this matter to bed.
If you can think of something that would allow for that, I'd love to hear how. In my estimation, if they posted info on this, it would revive a dead horse (that will always remain dead) and simply cause a recycling of frustration and animous. What we need to do is move forward (with whatever items rise to the top when Publish 8 hits).
They know how to code, they just dont have the foggiest idea on how to manage customer expectations, and they do not understand the need for free flowing communications.
They are getting better though. The fact that they posted the proposed Crafting Experimentation changes to the forum community first, to gauge reaction and getfeedback, is an example of this. On larger/major changes, I expect they will do this sort of thing in the future.
I'm also working a bit with JustG to start some kind of DE / Dev reconciliation program (appropriate especially today, of all days). It just can't happen in the blink of an eye...that's all.
Respectfully,