Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: My reply & questions to TH on Combat Balance
Virtanis wrote:
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"Since when did people have a clue about what they want?"
Nice line... Now I'll again bring up just one example: Holocron's pledge about the Probot and the Cert system. He's not "among the people, who have no clue what they want"... again, he was the former Creative Director of the game. If he said he was going to do this, he said it with a clue. How can you blame the unwashed, clueless masses in this case? He said it... he proclaimed it... and we're still waiting for it; empty handed... Don't blame the players for SOE's utter failures. Inferring players are "clueless" and don't know what they want is exactly the kind of corporate mentality SOE has embraced... and some of us are bringing them to task for it.
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Well, what I said in my previous post is this: Developers emphatically promise "A", Months, and months, and months to pass without anyone delivering on "A", the playerbase gets angry and waves their promises of "A" in their face, Developers come back and say that "A" isn't possible at all or that project "R" took priority, and "A" will be delayed for untold months. The playerbase becomes exceedingly angry and agitated that the Developers have failed to do anything about "A" and constantly take them to task for their utter lack of attention on "A" until "A" gets into the game like they promised.
Message Edited by OrionsByte on 02-05-2004 11:27 AM
OrionsByte wrote:
You're absolutely right, but I see it from a different angle. I think the community would be better off if the DEVs just flat out stopped promising stuff... let them raise the ideas, let us debate the issues, but stop altogether with handing out release dates and plans of action.
Community might be better off? Yes. Developers might get less flak? Yes. Isclamming up on the details or datesbetter communication? No. We all want better communication and even the developers have stated this is a big goal of theirs. The solution to this is more open dialogue, better wording on their part, less nebulousness (wow, is that a word?), and more 2-way communication BEFORE the coding/development cycle begins.
The reason for this is what JustG recently posted... things change. It would be great if they told us when things change, sure, but the very fact that things will likely change is reason enough to me to keep from posting it in the first place... or at least posting it with a disclaimer.
Of course things change... but there are two heads to this snake. When people refer to stuff changing in MMOG's (because MMOG's inherently change, as a part of their design), they should be making a distinction between two main aspects of this discussion: 1. In game specifics and 2. Broad developmental goals. Of course the stuff in the #1 category changes ("Probots were too powerful, they need nerfing") but the stuff in #2 is the trickier part ("this is an interim solution until we get a certification system in place"). I don't think anyone is questioning the changing of the technical things in the game, like nerfs, balance, tweaks, etc... but like I mentioned before, people understood Holocron's statement and were patiently waiting for something to happen. Then, when TH came along with the DH idea and kept shooting down the Certification idea that Holocron said (several times in the same day) would be put in place, people got very, very upset... and still are. I'll touch on disclaimers in a moment though.
The problem is that the community starts demanding to know when A or B or X will happen. The DEVs cave to the pressure and say, "Publish Z." Then things change and difficulties set in and Publish Z becomes unlikely. Yes, they should tell us that it changed, but what I'm saying is that they never should have said "Publish Z" to begin with, because now it's going to look like they were lying.
You're somewhat correct in this... but the Probot/Certificationflap with Holocron's post wasn't really about when we were getting plan A or B. It was Holocron saying: we are going to nerf Probots as an interim solution until plan A can get in place.
Again, it wasn't about "when"... it was about "we will be putting plan A into effect".
Then, months and months later, Thunderheart comes along and proclaims: "We're doing the Droid Handler profession (aka: Plan 9 from Outer Space) and certifications can't be done", which entirely invalidated all of the "assurances" Holocron made on 7/21/03. I'll call them assurances for arguments sake, but when the Creative Director makesfive or moreseperate and explcitreferences toinstituting Certificationsin a number of seperate posts all on the same day, I take that as a promise.
As you can see... "when" wasn't the problem.... it turned into "won't". And it may not be lying, per se, but when you've mislead the entire community for months and months about putting a plan into effect then do a 180 degree turn, you're da/\/\n right people are going to be up in arms!
It's basic human nature to take statements that sounddefinitive and turn them in to "promises." I agree that the DEVs need to work on their communication skills, but I also think that we as a community need to work on not taking every DEV post as if it was an official press release and that what they say has been written in stone.
Heh, George H. W. Bush once said "Read my lips,no new taxes." He didn't use the word "promise", but his tone, tenor, and inflection pretty much assured us it was. Oh yeah, I'm suretheyalso tried to use the excuse "the economy is an ever changing thing"... and he lost his bid at a 2nd Presidency because of that. Yeah, this is justa game... but words are still words, and people's reputations are just as altered by what they say here as they do "in the real world". I'm no longer in the mood to start excusing mistatements, pardoning slip ups, or forgetting erroneous assurances.SOEis just as much a company asSWG is a game. They represent that company. What they say and do reflects on their company. Just because their work involves a game doesn't allow them any more leeway than I give my local restaurant, the President, or Honda. If I ever met Mr. Gattis, Mr. Stangl, or Mr. Koster in public, I'd approachthem on this topic point blank, because they represent the company, and what they say reflects their company as well.
That's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of us, myself included. Especially since a lot of people have taken the attitude of, "I'm paying $15 a month so I should be informed." But the fact of the matter is that the DEVs are humans too, and they make mistakes just like the rest of us.
I do feel entitled to a degree of quality service and communication from any company that receives my money for a product. I don't care if it's a software game, food, a vehicle, or a paperback book. They have invited communication in this game. They setup forums for players to communicate with them about their product. As long as these avenues (and others) are given to us by them, we should use it to demand the services they claim they're providing.
Yes, they are human... we all are (minus a select few).It's obvious they need to work on communication, and that's just another reason why I continue to raise these issues they've failed to address for months now. They should be much more careful with what they say.
Personally, I work in the medical field... in Oncology. When a pathologist speaks to another doctor about someone's possible malignant lymphoma, they use terms like "suggestive", "highly indicitive", and "correlates well with that diagnosis". My pathologistco-worker is an M.D. and has a doctorate in Clinical Pathology and an undergraduate minor in English, and she knows very, very well how important wording is when it comes to discussing issues in medicine. They have to use well considered words because, unless they have all the information in front of them, patient history, histograms, previous testresults, case references, morphologic correlations, and the patient right in front of them, they're often diagnosing a person from a thousand miles away. To make matters even more severe,toxic therapies may hinge on what they say, so they have to be extra careful what they say. They're human too... but there is no margin for error.
Granted, "community relations" for a game never involves a person's life, but these people can still communicate with us using some better worded posts, tosignificantly lessen the chance for errors or mispercieved notions. My doctor friend's reputation hinges on every word she says, and so should Mr. Stangl, Mr. Gattis, and Mr. Koster. Also, I'm not talking about them filling their posts with half-statements and wishy washy promises, but they can, and should,do much better. Just because it's a game doesn't mean they can fail to speak clearly, use appropriate terms, apply conservative phraseology, and communicate often. Communicating about a game doesn't mean theyshould makecommunicating a game.
It's been said that men marry women hoping they'll never change, and women marry men hoping they can change them. I kind of get that impression when looking at the DEV-community relationship. We both have to start cutting the other some slack or else it's going to keep getting messy.
I guess we'll agree to disagree, Orions. I will not give them any more slack that I'd give any other company that provides a servicefor me. And I believe people should not excuse companys for their abhorrant communication or failed promises just because it's software or a game.
Virtanis wrote:
IntoTheGarbage wrote:
You can respond by getting angry at the people trying to fix the problem, or you can listen to them and try to understand the problem.
Or you couldcheerfully wave theirbroken promises, empty gestures, unfulfilled goals, and vapid lip-service under their noses at every opportunity. Maybe shame and motivate them faster than compassion or care for their players?
Ok, now you really have got me to make an angry post.
Shame them into action?!?! Have you looked at the dev tracker. It gives times of entries you know. It shows that yesterday they were working until after 8 pm, and back in the office by 9 am this morning at least. And I am willing to bet they are not paid by the hour.
These guys are working hard to make this game the best it can be. I am amazed at the patience they show when their hard efforts are met with petulant complaints thattheirhard workhas not met their expectations. Quite frankly, I think the biggest threat to development is the ingratitude of some players undermining the (thus far remarkable) motivation and dedication of the devs.
If, like me, you are unhappy with the state of the game, post solutions, not complaints and accusations and references to past posts by the devs.
Oh, and for those of you who are going to claim that I am sucking up to the devs. Please be sure to explain what exactly you think I have to gain by doing so. I am not sucking up to the devs, I am coming down on the whiners.
Ok, it finally happened, I made an angry post.
IntoTheGarbage wrote:
Ok, now you really have got me to make an angry post.
Shame them into action?!?! Have you looked at the dev tracker. It gives times of entries you know. It shows that yesterday they were working until after 8 pm, and back in the office by 9 am this morning at least. And I am willing to bet they are not paid by the hour.
Ask some of the die hards around here about the bugs that have been resident in this game since beta, or before. Ask some of the die hards around here if they think the game was released too early to address those very same bugs. Ask some of the die hards around and the industry insiders if maybe delaying the release of the game a month or two would have given them the opportunity to freely squash bugs, add content, andavert many of these problems we're facing today.
Don't expect pity from me if they have to work on bugs or flaws now when most of this crap is leftover from before release!
If, like me, you are unhappy with the state of the game, post solutions, not complaints and accusations and references to past posts by the devs.
Are you suggesting I never have posted solutions or constructive suggestions??... I'd really like to know if you're saying this, and some of the others in this forum might as well...
Virtanis wrote:
I guess we'll agree to disagree, Orions.
/agree to disagree 
But to reitterate my point (for the last time, I promise), the developers have voluntarily chosen, as you pointed out, to receive input about the game via these forums. They are not contractually bound, no matter how much we're paying them, to listen to us. They do it by choice.
I liked your "read my lips" analogy. Yes, the DEVs tend to take that kind of stance, but when they don't we yell at them for being wishy-washy. It's really a no-win situation for them... either give us hard dates and hard facts and have to reverse themselves later and get called liars, or give us vague, open-ended information and get yelled at for not giving us enough hard dates and facts.
FWIW I do agree full-heartedly that I expect to get what I pay for, but the fact is I am enjoying the game.
Thanks for the discussion, Virtanis.
/bow
*Edited for spelling*
Message Edited by OrionsByte on 02-05-2004 02:33 PM
I don't think they need to give hard dates (nor will they ever do this unless they are 1807% certain that the date can be met).
OrionsByte wrote:
...either give us hard dates and hard facts and have to reverse themselves later and get called liars, or give us vague, open-ended information and get yelled at for not giving us enough hard dates and facts.
Message Edited by OrionsByte on 02-05-2004 02:33 PM
I do, however, believe that they need to give hard facts.
The vagueness and ambiguity of past posts on the droid and DE 'situation' has been cause for much of the frustration that we face.
Personally, I'm starting to think that they simply aren't up to the task. Basically....I don't think they CAN fix DE.
Note: Currently, I'm not even a Master DE (as I am spending time doing CM) but will be in the next few days.
/bow
Respectfully,
Personally, I'm starting to think that they simply aren't up to the task. Basically....I don't think they CAN fix DE.
I agree, but I'd reword it to say that they can't fix DE to our satisfaction. I think we've passed a point of no return. Had they gotten to us in a timely manner, it would be a different story, but we've been left lingering for far too long, hanging on hopes fed to us with posts like JustG's now-infamous "January publish" post.
I don't want to return to the point that I promised I was done debating, but this is why I think they should have just kept their mouths shut until they were sure of the direction they were going. We need to keep on their backs, yes, but not to the point that they feel they have to give us whatever information they have handy and have to go back on it later.
/done
Virtanis wrote:
IntoTheGarbage wrote:
Ok, now you really have got me to make an angry post.
Shame them into action?!?! Have you looked at the dev tracker. It gives times of entries you know. It shows that yesterday they were working until after 8 pm, and back in the office by 9 am this morning at least. And I am willing to bet they are not paid by the hour.
Ask some of the die hards around here about the bugs that have been resident in this game since beta, or before. Ask some of the die hards around here if they think the game was released too early to address those very same bugs. Ask some of the die hards around and the industry insiders if maybe delaying the release of the game a month or two would have given them the opportunity to freely squash bugs, add content, andavert many of these problems we're facing today.
Don't expect pity from me if they have to work on bugs or flaws now when most of this crap is leftover from before release!
Are you suggesting this is the devs fault it was released too soon. Or the producers? I suspect it pained the dev's deeply to release it before it was ready.
If, like me, you are unhappy with the state of the game, post solutions, not complaints and accusations and references to past posts by the devs.
Are you suggesting I never have posted solutions or constructive suggestions??... I'd really like to know if you're saying this, and some of the others in this forum might as well...
You may have posted constructive posts in the past, but you are whining now. And that is at best unproductive, at worst, counter-productive.
You can get in the last flame if you want, I hate flame wars and have nothing more to say.
IntoTheGarbage wrote:
Are you suggesting this is the devs fault it was released too soon. Or the producers? I suspect it pained the dev's deeply to release it before it was ready.
It may have upset the development team or the producers that the game was released early. It was most likely a marketing or "executive" decision to do so, but I brought that fact up as a counter to your "look, they put in overtime!... they work so hard!!" comment. They might not have to work "so hard" right now fixing all the crap that's been around since before beta if it weren't broken in the first place, and for that, they still don't get my pity. I guess life sucks at SOE-HQ... they need to get helmets.
You may have posted constructive posts in the past, but you are whining now. And that is at best unproductive, at worst, counter-productive.
Wow, nice start at a flame-fest there... and since your entire series of comments all started because of my penchant for digging up old developer posts (whining, in your words), here's another little gem I happend to dig up:
"I want to being a crafter and make something that is:
1) In high demand
2) Has a reasonable turnover rate
3) I can get rich selling.
Ok, that still doesn’t explain why I chose DE.
If I'm a "whiner" than you're a flavor of the month, johnny-come-lately, bandwagoner noob only jumping into our forums and discussions because you thought DE's were going to be wallowing in riches and power with this inane Droid Invasion (note: Droid Handler) nonsense. I'll be comfortable with my title as "whiner" if you're comfortable with yours??
You can get in the last flame if you want, I hate flame wars and have nothing more to say.
And I'd like nothing more to shoot down ridiculous posts and to defend my posting history, feel free to respond if you like. I know I can take the heat.
Gavvot wrote:
You don't get it.
Ultimate droid combat balance issue counter argument is faction pet.
They are cheap, powerfull, don't require precious skill points, and are already here.
If I can have a 10K HAM faction pet in a couple of days at no cost, why being able to replace it by a droid build by a player would unbalance the fight?
In PvP there is NO combat balance issue.
That leave PvM.
Well, faction pet are usable in PvM but you have ot be overt to use them.
Worst case senario : you're killed by oposite faction member. Cloning, what a high cost...
Technically it does cost you. It costs you faction points, which in turn cost you time and effort. In addition, faction pets suffer permadeath and AT-ST's in particular, can not be healed. They are a consumable resource, not a persistant resource. Reward vs. risk = balance.
Droids, as they currently stand, are a persistant resource. They do not decay, they do not suffer permadeath (at least not the last time I checked, it's changed so many times...). Once you've bought a droid that droid will be yours forever and all you need to do is feed it batteries. It becomes a permanent part of your character as long as you own the droid.
I believe that's the DEVs' concern with them as stat bonuses. Take away that permanence, somehow, and I think we might be able to come to some sort of amicable solution.
A droid with 10K HAM, shouldn't even exist IMHO.
But if it does, should cost alot of money, and eat alot or specific expensive batteries.
Fact is, from scratch, In a couple of hour you can have a 2.7K HAM faction pet that you can replace after doing a couple of mission. About an hour to have a new one, if it does die.
I'm not asking to make combat droid as powerfull as faction pet, I'm saying combat droid is not a balance issue.
It won't give you a way too big advantage in combat for a small cost.
It will give you an usefull advantage for a reasonable cost.
And you'll be more Uber with a faction pet.
See, my point is the combat balance issue is not an issue.