Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: CU info is up!
DigitalOne
Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:46 pm
#14
Generally i feel pretty fine with this, i never spent much time in as a combat profession, always thought it had problems, glad to see this fixes alot and sort of gets me excited about starting a combat dude, might make me quit DE though if thats the case.
Definatly dont like the health reduction for crafters, my life is already pretty hard as is, thier basicaly salting a wound with that. Armor certifications also hurt, all this composite i have sitting around (and paid a good amont for) will probably become useless to me. Also hurts if im ever going to do stuff with my guild (ie. Death watch) its gonna make me as a full time DE a gimped target which will need babysitting, altleast with this system even with practically zero combat skills, no one had to worry about me, i could stay alive.
The only negative change for most combat people is the increased prerequisete skills per elite profession, that could hurt, but on the other hand templates as we know them will become obsolete, so one is probably less dependant on the many skill points.
As a crafter i know this whole thing wasent intended for me, but i feel like im coming out of this with a bitc h slap, i think we crafters are hurt most by this. Combatants will come out of this alright, gonna take some getting used to but all in all i dont see anything debillitating.
Atan
Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:44 pm
#15
Blair wrote:
All of the above professions will be re-balanced so that mastery requires a more equal number of skill points for each of the elite professions. No player will be able to master three elite combat professions.
Message Edited by Blair on 03-18-2005 06:22 PM
I still hope that they remodel the SP cost in some way, otherwise i can kiss my merchant skills goodbye.
Jenden
Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:02 pm
#16
I think part of it is you're still thinking of things in terms of the old system, where really it was master or nothing. While that may still be more or less true for non-combat professions, the combat professions will be I believe scaled much better. You should end up with decent benefits the whole way through.
Straker_Atrella
Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:39 pm
#17
Nell, they certainly did not take the easy way out. When you see the whole system, you will see that. Some professions like Commando and BH take a lot more skill points then other professions, so how do you balance those with the others? "Part" of doing that is to make them cheaper, yet make the others cost more. Then even thoguh they cost a little more still, it is easier to justify 15 skill points with power, then say 30.
Also with the old system, you could have triple mastery. Which means that it was very easy to have access to all the important moves and specials, giving very little variety. Under the new system, eliminating triple mastery will lead to more different types of characters, and a wider array of templates. In the end making the game a lot more fun and varied.
I undestand your problem, you have DE, master CH, and some pistol. The new system will make it so that you have to give up your pistol maybe. I know change sucks, but overall it will be better in the end. Don't forget your CH side, that is a weapon in and of itself. Even though CH is not directly in the venue of the CU, it isn't totally overlooked. It's hard to walk the NDA line here, but CH will be better after then before.
In the end though, the SWG skill point system is about choices. I love many professions, but I need to choose the ones I love the most. You may have some hard choices to make, but remember others will as well. No longer will you need to face people who basically have "it all" in one template.
Edit: to add a comment about crafters not wearing armor. It didn't say that. It said that armor gives you negative effects, it didn't say you couldn't wear it.
Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 03-19-2005 06:40 PM
OrionsByte
Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:52 pm
#18
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Edit: to add a comment about crafters not wearing armor. It didn't say that. It said that armor gives you negative effects, it didn't say you couldn't wear it.
Some (or all) of the armor is certed though, and I'm fairly certain there won't be any armor certs in the Droid Assembly line... 
What I do find interesting though is that the people that are the most upset are the people that had very set expectations for the CU. Now that the info has started to trickle out, and that info is not meeting their expectations, they're getting angry. Hopefully in a little while people will start to calm down and look at things objectively, and see that while they may have to start re-thinking their strategies and how they play the game, in the end it will be better overall.
I've been hanging out on the musician forum tonight, and man, that's a bunch of angry people. Personally, I'm trying to reserve judgement until I see more info, but so far, I think it looks like a good direction.
Nell2ThaIzzay
Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:29 am
#19
Straker, I do understand the reasoning behind the changes. I just don't like the fact that 2 years into the game, after people have worked on, and built their characters, everything they have worked on (well, not -every-thing, but you get my meaning) is in vain, because they can't obtain it anyways.
That's like saying there is a marathon being run, and the leading runner crosses the finish line, but then the judges say "Oh no, you ran it too fast, we're extending the race another 5 miles", and then the runner passes out from exhaustion because he can't run any farther.
Best analogy in the world? Probably not. But I think you get my point that I'm trying to get across with it.
Anyways, I dunno what is or isn't gonna happen with CH. After the revamp, it may very well be a viable combat option on it's own. The problem is, pistols are also a very large part of my character. I based my character's entire bio and backstory around the template I chose, and it just feels like after this change, I won't be able to play that character.
As far as the skill point system goes, the -only- saving grace for me is... the pre-reqs for Bounty Hunter are Ranged Support, and Exploration. Well, since I am CH, I already have the Exploration tree, and the ranged support tree costs the same amount of skill points as the pistols tree, so I can go into Bounty Hunter and choose one of the 3 weapons there (which if I did, would probably be the lightning cannon, just because something that shoots lightning is too good to pass up), and Bounty Hunter is actually a good profession to fit my backstory. So maybe I can compromise with that. It would just feel awkward taking Bounty Hunter tho, but not having any skill points to go into the Investigation tree, which seems like the tree that is the definition of a Bounty Hunter, lol.
I -will- stick around and give it a shot tho. Because, I was very wrong about my initial reaction to the NPC troops in cities. I had a bad first experience with them (incapped 3 times, each in 1 hit, before I had a chance to know I was being aggroed, and all I wanted to do was get to a bazaar terminal), and I thought that they were a bit too powerful. Then I tried them out with some buffs and stuff, and realized they weren't all that bad, and actually make for a fun, exciting challenge (at least for me). Right now, my worst fear with the CU has come true (additional skill point requirements, making already limited availability stretched even thinner), and there are a couple other things I saw I wasn't too fond of, but there were some things I also was looking forward to. I'll give it a shot, and see how it works out. But as of now, with what I know, I'm not feeling very optimistic about these changes.
Straker_Atrella
Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:54 am
#20
Nell, the problem is that you are a minority.
First you are a crafter, then you took CH (not currently a powerhouse,) then you add a littel pistol. For you, the current state of the game gives a lot of challange. Yet for a large portion of the playerbase, there is practically no challenge at all. Short of being stupid, it is very hard to die, even more-so with certain professions.
While I understand that the CU puts people like you in a rough spot, without adding some challenge, balance, and excitement to combat, the entire game will die.
I honestly, can't think of a way that they could "fix" combat without hurting a template such as the one you have.
Fobok
Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:25 pm
#21
OrionsByte wrote:I've been hanging out on the musician forum tonight, and man, that's a bunch of angry people. Personally, I'm trying to reserve judgement until I see more info, but so far, I think it looks like a good direction.
Same goes with me. I'm a Musician and Doctor on my Bria character, and while I haven't checked the Musician forums yet, the Doctor forums are... well, 'a bunch of angry people' would be putting it very mildly.
Personally, I really like the look of the changes. A lot of it will depend on experience in practice, but it sounds a lot more interesting now than before.
Akkori
Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:54 pm
#22
I am looking forward to it, and am glad they are finally locked in to a release date. I am really glad for the SP increases. One of the things I love AND hate about the system is the lack of being "special". Its just kinda a bummer to work hard on getting a profession, then dropping by cnet, all proud of your accomplishment, and seeing a dozen others there with your title. Its kinda demeaning. I would prpbably encourage an even greater increase in the SP investment for profession, forcing people to specialize even further!But at the same time I hate it because, well, heheh, I wanna do *everything*!! 
Its why I got another account. II wanted to do more, but didnt want to give up my professions, and didnt want to go to another server and start over all broke, lol. But I am pretty seriously thinking about that lately. Dropping the second account, and making a combat character on another server. With my history in resources, I could easily make it as a Miner, and fight to have fun. The only thing holding me back is the people I know on my server. Anyway, thats what been running around in my mind.
Mostly I just wish the Devs would release ALL the documents. If people had more information to absorb, I think much of this latest uproar (the In Dev thread is about 60 pages long now) is due to us getting an incomplete overview. 45 days to go!
Nell2ThaIzzay
Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:46 am
#23
^ To the above poster, just my take on the situation, and I don't mean to demean your opinion if that's how I come across?
But how can you think that by limiting the skill points that you'll become more unique? If that's the case, everyone will be thrown into an EQ style class system, where everybody is just 1 thing, and everyone who is that 1 thing is a carbon copy of everyone else who is that 1 thing.
The thing I love about this game, is the system does allow you to be unique. The 250 skill points we have to distribute can allow some players to become the best soldiers they can be. Some to become the best entrepanuers they can be. Some can become a popular entertainer. Some will do a bit of a bunch of stuff. I myself run a business (LeBeau Inc. Droids - 3303 Droid Engineer), "breed" creatures (2313 Creature Handler), and I am also a mercenary for the Imperial military (xx4x Pistoleer). At one point, I used to be a Musician. And I know plenty of people who do different mixing and matching of the available professions to make their characters unique.
That's why I am concerned about the limiting of the skill points. I don't want characters to all just be the same old rifleman, or pistoleer, or what have you. When I throw on my armor, and get buffs, I'm not a typical sword slashing, or gun toting soldier. Instead, I command a small army of minions (droids and creatures) to do my murderous bidding for me, while I sit back from a distance and pick off the leftovers.
Now, I do understand that there does need to be some profession balance. But when I thought of the combat upgrade, I thought of fixing combat stacking, by allowing only 1 of your combat profession's defense mods to be active at a time. I thought of reducing the power of overpowered specials, and raising the power of underpowered ones. I thought of nerfing of buffs, so they are not the be all end all of survival. Changing the combat professions so they all have a unique, but equal role in PvP and PvE combat.
Instead, we've been hit with the removal of the HAM bars for 1 generic health bar, and worst of all, our already limited skill points are going to be stretched even thinner. I don't know about everyone else, as I can't speak for them, but the appeal of this game is the ability to be so many different things, and make a diverse, unique character, and not some cookie cutter class, that everyone else who has your profession is the exact same thing. Like I said, me and someone else might both be Pistoleers, but we can still have different tactics. He may have more Pistoleer skills than I do, so he's naturally better with the gun than I am, but I also have minions by my side that he doesn't, which could tip the scale of a battle into my favor.
Maybe things are easier said than done, but I would have much rather seen them balance the current system, than to see them completely remake it and make it even harder for us to become diverse characters.
I will, however, give it a shot. I am pesimistic about the changes, but people are right; you can't make an honest judgement on it until it passes. But that doesn't mean that I can't think that I won't like it. Because I don't think I will. Luckily, however, Bounty Hunter's sp requirements are being lowered to make it cost the exact same as my current Pistoleer skills would cost, so that could balance out. And there are a few things I am looking forward to. But as I said, I would have just prefered to see them balance the professions than to make it harder to get them.
Straker_Atrella
Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:17 am
#24
Nell, many of the things that you have talked about with defense stacking and broken specials have been fixed. Just not by nerfing things though.
If somebody wants to take their skill points and make a defensive toon they should be able too. Conversely, if somebody wants to neglect defense and go all damage, theyshould be able todo that as well.Defense stacking should never be fixed, that destroys the fun of character creation. You make your toon how you want.
This doesn't mean that people should be unkillable tanks though. In the current system, buffs, armor, and the balance of professions allowed people to do lots of offense, at the same time as having gobs of defense. The goal of the CU isn't to remove stacking but to actually put pluses and minuses into the system.
Drashk
Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:26 am
#25
Many people will need to 'Unlearn what you have learned'.
The Combat Upgrade will be stepping away from the idea that you must be a Master to be the best combat toon that you can be. Yes, being a Master of an Elite combat profession will be of great benefit, however picking up certain skills from one profession and certain skills from another will also be of great importance. One benefit of picking up multiple professions will the benefit of being able to use multiple armor types. Your character may not be the best at using any given armor type, but having acess to more then one armor type will give you an advantage over others due to your flexability in combat roles.
Increasing the skill point costs on some professions, while reducing them on others, will help to create a more even playing field so that the professions can finally be balanced out. The only people who will see a slightly more negative impact on their game play, will be the people who try to mix combat with non-combat professions. A single character, on a single server, is not supposed to be able to do everything. If you chose to be a fully crafting toon, then you should be at a major disadvantage in combat. If you are a full combat toon, you should be at a major disadvantage in the non-combat world. If you chose to be a hybrid of combat and non-combat, then you should be versed in both worlds, but not be thought of as 'on top of your game'.
What makes SWGs so unique and difficult to balance out is this profession system. No other MMORPG, that I have played, even comes close to producing the unique character concepts that you can achieve in SWG. Where else can you play a Shipwright, DE, Carbineer? Or a Smuggler, DE, Pistoleer? Or any other combonation of skills? Each character's template can be made up of a large number of potential skill combonations. The only difference between what will happen post-CU and what is happening now, in regards to skill point costs, is that we will finally have a more balanced system.
Atan
Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:12 am
#26
One thing that i think is of interest is that if they dont change the skillpoint cost per box it will be possible to be MDE, a ranged master and nov. BH
I will finally be able to use my own bomb droids 
I only have to give up MA, the DA Treeand either surveying or the merchant tree
[Edit:
Stupid Post, its possible with nov. Smuggler now too ^^
But at least after the CU i can heal myself
]
Message Edited by Atan on 03-26-2005 12:20 PM