CUEmu - Thread Posts

Shian_Tavkin

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:52 pm

Haruspex77 wrote:

Boeda wrote:

>1) Too many of the people who can use droidswould also beable to make them. Sure it would be possible to have only the handling branch, but once you have gone that far...<

It would cost 43 more skillpoints to master DE to get that last (master) box. Those dabbling up the tree would get much of the cert. I doubt those interested in only combat would not rather spend those 43 points somewhere else.

An example with points and cert enumerated is at :

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=59251&page=1

(how do i make a link ? Ive tried HTML. didnt work)

Well, I could certainly live with that suggestion, though it is not my preference.

But I still suspect that many, many new MDE's would result. I know I would go that way, but then probably would with any really meaningful improvement. When CH call levels were concentrated in one tree, there seemed to be only a small market for tamed and trained creatures, though I can't be sure since I was not a CH. Perhaps it was due to the bump at MCH, which I note that you avoided for MDE.

As overbyte mentioned in starting this thread, there is an implication of "droid handling experience" instead of just crafting which is a real threat to many. Somehow I doubt his way out would fly. By spreading those handling skill bumps across many crafting professions, the implication of a different kind of experience goes away, and all advancement is clearlythrough crafting.

I am not really convinced that your skill/skillpoint ratio is right at every level. At DC4 you get a level 35 droid for only 49 skillpoints which seems a little high. (You added 10 not 5 to the skillpoints required at DC1 throwing the rest of your numbers off) A lot of heavycombat templates could afford that, and get a lot of leverage out of that droid. But you are certainly close. I think that was the kind of thing that the devs had in mind in the first place.

But the marketablity and assured skillpoint consumption are the big advantages of my proposal.

However, the hardest part is breaking the attitude that crafting skill is somehow a real trade off with combat. Too many of the folks on the crafting forums are not looking, yet, at their permanent inability to access most of the content or group with their friendsusing their crafting character. There are many players who don't even like the idea of having combat abilities opened to them. It seems hard to convince those folks that they would not be required to fight.

Trouble is they say they can, with a rifle no less.

My belief is that most if not all of then have second characters. Probably second accounts in many cases.

So, they get the 'content' by being on mutiple accounts/and/ or/ servers. For myself, I want to be with my friends.

You will never get then to compromise..it just is not in them. Bartle-wise there is a new category--Dom.

Shian -- Master Droid Engineer/ Master Artisan

Kollos

Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:27 am

#15

AudioOrgana wrote:

Shian_Tavkin wrote:

Trouble is they say they can, with a rifle no less.

My belief is that most if not all of then have second characters. Probably second accounts in many cases.

So, they get the 'content' by being on mutiple accounts/and/ or/ servers. For myself, I want to be with my friends.

You will never get then to compromise..it just is not in them. Bartle-wise there is a new category--Dom.

I totally agree, and this is the very point I was for either certifications for masters of professions (which if done universally wouldn't upset balance, I don't care what anyone says), or some way for crafters to access them at least.

Should a crafter be able to solo a Krayt? Or even a fambaa? Of course not. But they should be able to experience things like Jabba's Palace without being a useless tag-along that needs other people to do the missions for them.

I've never bought the "play on another server" crap - for most people, that's not an option. Not only do we not want to play multiple characters, most of us just don't have the time. I have one alt that a friend and I leveled together for just such a purpose, but it was a poor subsitute for doing it yourself, on your own Galaxy, with the charachter they want you to become so attached to.

Audio

I have one account on one server.

Kollos is a Master Droid Engineer, Master Artisan, 3401 Merchant, 1000 Rifleman, 1000 Scout, 4000 Marksman. I might have missed something or be off by 1 or 2 boxes somewhere, but that's basically it.

I've done Jabba's Palace solo. I also did the Valerian missions while on Tat, then went to Naboo and did the Borvo missions (at least up until they were bugged. I solo'd a 23k HAMAncient Bull Rancor while tending harvesters on Dathomir. I've done several of the "adventure" caves, though not any of the high-level ones like Nightsisters.

And y'all have labeled me a pure crafter.

I have no trouble accessing any of the end game content with my Droid Engineer as it is. I'm a welcome addition on my guild's raids when I feel like getting out and killing things. I bring along my Probot, too. Sometimes it gets killed, sometimes not. My friends enjoy having me along with them, and I enjoy being with them.

I don't understand the need for additional combat capabilities in the Droid Engineer profession. We're not supposed to be as good at combat as a combat profession. And, like I have done, if you want to be able to do combat, there's plenty of room in a single character to pick up combat abilities while still remaining a Droid Engineer. I could master Rifleman if I wanted to, but I don't want to because I'd have to give up Merchant and Scout to do it.

The need just doesn't exist. Sorry, but it's just not there.

/shrug

Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

Droids by Kollos -840, 3980 Seacht, Naboo (NW of Keren)
Bounty Hunter Droids by Kollos 4924, 6107 550m SW of Kaadara
Vehicles and Master Artisan Components also available
paying 250k/point for Droid Assembly Skill Tapes, minimum of +4

Boeda

Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:12 pm

#16

>i don't think that putting certs in the master de box is a good choice for the de branch idea because ppl will want it but you don't want to force them to get your entire profession (thus making you obsolete) before they can get it - <

Well I think those wanting only more combat power could get better from using the 43 skillpoints elsewhere. The master DE cert would be to empower the points the DE has spent anyway, more than really be worth the 43 skillpoints.

>i say make master de have multiple droids instead because it IS a definate advantage but doesn't force everyone who likes to use droids to grind out a craft prof.<

If there ever was a problem with combats going master DE for just combat. Putting only a '+ droid out' and data pad number stored, bonus in the master box. Would probly frustrate it.

I think even if they dont do the Max level cert in publish 7 and 8 they could at least include the + droid out and more stored in data pad 'certs' in 7 if not 8. DEs have Allways needed more in data pad and more 'out'. I know they are afraid to increase number in data pad, for storage issues. But they could impliment a max data pad storage just like they have a max inventory storage. No matter how many pouches in your inventory you cant exeed the 60 max (and 50 in worn pack). So I'd implement, say 60 max in data pad and unlimit the max storage per droid. Include the more stored and + out 'certs' in master arts and DE. Then if they cant figure the max droid level certs by then. They'll at least have that much done already.

>When CH call levels were concentrated in one tree, there seemed to be only a small market for tamed and trained creatures, though I can't be sure since I was not a CH<

I think thats because the Use certs and the tame certs were both the same. If you could use them, you could also go and gert them yourself. ((i think. Im not sure either))

>there is an implication of "droid handling experience" instead of just crafting which is a real threat to many.<

I have not bothetred to specify what type of experience would be needed. Its not that important to me. But if the one branch is to rep[resent a 'mini profession' then it must be doable from novice DE. And some kind of 'droid use' exp would probly be most appropriate.

>I am not really convinced that your skill/skillpoint ratio is right at every level. At DC4 you get a level 35 droid for only 49 skillpoints which seems a little high.<

My figures were a quick attempt for an example. No way I can evaluate the power of creature levels. But I put what looked 'ok' to me. They are meant for example. Somthingfor the developers to change for balance.

Also there is the idea that DEs might see thier power in more (lower max lev) droids out at once. That would be another difference from creature handling. I would have droids be unhealable and sturdyer, but I guess that is not to be.

> (You added 10 not 5 to the skillpoints required at DC1 throwing the rest of your numbers off)<

Doh!, thanks. I just edited it.

> don't understand the need for additional combat capabilities in the Droid Engineer profession.... I could master Rifleman if I wanted to, but I don't want to because I'd have to give up Merchant and Scout to do it.<

Even if you gave up those you would still not be able to 'compete' with people who have spent your DE and artisan points in combat or combat support skills. Were just going to have to agree that you dont understand. Unless you get this soon.

>The need just doesn't exist. Sorry, but it's just not there.<

Just because *you* dont have a need doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Like I dont need to watch basketball. But I wouldnt try to argue about it. (but wouldnt like, womens vollyball, be SO much better ?) Nothing like a bunch of sweaty smelly basket ball armpits to make your day huh ?

Message Edited by Boeda on 02-28-2004 11:18 AM

- - -

There are No Steeenking 'Checkers' in crafting skillpoints !

Improved !!! Revised,"Alternate" New Combined DC/DE Hybrid Answer

Kollos

Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:28 pm

#17

Boeda wrote:

> don't understand the need for additional combat capabilities in the Droid Engineer profession.... I could master Rifleman if I wanted to, but I don't want to because I'd have to give up Merchant and Scout to do it.<

Even if you gave up those you would still not be able to 'compete' with people who have spent your DE and artisan points in combat or combat support skills. Were just going to have to agree that you dont understand. Unless you get this soon.

I understand perfectly, it is you who doesn't seem to understand. Droid Engineer is a crafting profession. IT SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO COMPETE IN COMBAT WITH COMBAT PROFESSIONS. If you add Droid Engineer to your character's template, you are forgoing combat abilities to do so. It makes perfect sense to, apparently, just about everyone except you.

If you give combat abilities to crafting professions, then you should give crafting abilities to combat professions. Maybe Master Pistoleer should have the ability to craft Advanced R5 droids with Level 6 modules in them. That'd be fair, and it would give them a leg up on crafting. Cause as well all know, Master Pistoleers suck at crafting. They can't compete with Droid Engineers, so if they want to be able to sell droids we need to give them something. After all, you just can't play this game unless you can craft droids.

>The need just doesn't exist. Sorry, but it's just not there.<

Just because *you* dont have a need doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Like I dont need to watch basketball. But I wouldnt try to argue about it. (but wouldnt like, womens vollyball, be SO much better ?) Nothing like a bunch of sweaty smelly basket ball armpits to make your day huh ?
No, the need doesn't exist. I'm talking about the profession, not personal desire. There's no need for high level combat abilities to be added to the Droid Engineer profession - it's a crafting profession, not a combat profession. If you want your character to be able to adventure, pick up a combat profession. You have plenty of skill points to create your own special hybrid character. If you want your character to be able to compete in PvP, then you shouldn't be a Droid Engineer. It's that simple.

Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

Droids by Kollos -840, 3980 Seacht, Naboo (NW of Keren)
Bounty Hunter Droids by Kollos 4924, 6107 550m SW of Kaadara
Vehicles and Master Artisan Components also available
paying 250k/point for Droid Assembly Skill Tapes, minimum of +4

Kollos

Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:30 pm

#18

Apparently the sarcasm was lost on you.

There are other games where it is possible to be both a crafter and a combat character at the same time. The end result in those games, almost uniformly, is that end-game characters all look pretty much the same. There's little variation because everyone simply makes the best template and runs with it. That's bland.

SWG is a better game because it forces specialization of characters. You simply can't do everything, and that's why it is more interesting than those other games. Crafters in SWG are an important and thriving part of the community - something that you can't say about very many other games. (UO is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.) If you allow everyone to fight and craft with the same character, people who want to play full-time crafters get drowned out by the uber players who simply do both. It ruins the game for the dedicatedfull time crafter.

It's a sad fact of internet gaming, but if you don't encourage interdependence (or force it)it doesn't happen. People will simply form their own little cliques and play amongst themselves with everything they need in that one little group. There's no community to speak of. There's really no "Massively Multiplayer", there's just massively simultaneous small group play. Other players who aren't part of your clique become an annoyance rather than a benefit.

SWG caters to all types of players. Combat players, crafter players, and hybrid players via the skill point system. The only people it doesn't cater to are the ones who want to be able to do everything. And I seriously doubt that it ever will cater to that group of people because doing so goes against one of the fundamental premises of the game'sdesign.

Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

Droids by Kollos -840, 3980 Seacht, Naboo (NW of Keren)
Bounty Hunter Droids by Kollos 4924, 6107 550m SW of Kaadara
Vehicles and Master Artisan Components also available
paying 250k/point for Droid Assembly Skill Tapes, minimum of +4

Shian_Tavkin

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:57 pm

#19

Of course the big difference between UO and SWG is that here we can only have one character per server.

Just a comment.

Shian -- Master Droid Engineer/ Master Artisan

AudioOrgana

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:54 pm

#20

Kollos wrote:

It's a sad fact of internet gaming, but if you don't encourage interdependence (or force it)it doesn't happen. People will simply form their own little cliques and play amongst themselves with everything they need in that one little group. There's no community to speak of. There's really no "Massively Multiplayer", there's just massively simultaneous small group play. Other players who aren't part of your clique become an annoyance rather than a benefit.

Gee, maybe that's because...THEY DON'T WANT TO.

I'm so tired of being told that interdependence is some state of divine being.

Many people play to experience a video game in a persistent environment, in the COMPANY of other players, not relying on other players constantly. Some of us like to take responsibility for our own play-experience, and would rather spend our time playing the game and not waiting for people to get online, dealing with connection issues, constant RL distractions some people have while playing. These can be fine in casual play, but when these things gate you they ruin the game - not add to it.

It's like your mom forcing you to play with a kid you don't like or want to play with. What good does it do to force you to play with someone you do not want to? For a child it may teach you people skills, but SOE shouldn't be teaching us moral and social lessons. Most of us are adults anddon't need that, thank you.

Forcing it on people who clearly do not want it does nothing but annoy and turn people off. I want other people to play with me when they want to, on our own terms - forcing social interaction for the sake of it is not only artificial but defeats the entire purpose.

I don't need someone else's mommy to tell them to play with me - I've perfectly secure in my ability to make friends on my own, I don't need the publisher of a video game to do it for me. Some people may be insecure and feel they cannot do this, that they need other people to be forced to play with them - but again, those issues are far beyond what a video game can or should address.

Audio

Shian_Tavkin

Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:18 pm

#21

One major result on one char per Galaxy is that it does force interdependency. The way my PA gets around thiscosting us all an arm and a leg is: we have a common warehouse where everything is free..yep, just go in and help yourself to anything you want. Need a factory? they are all standing there with everyone as admin. need a house? ask and it shall be given. Need power? 100000 units a week is left on the floor, but you actually dont need it because all the factories are powered and maintained by the PA guy responsible to do it. Need a resource? well ask for it to be surveyed and pick your BER harvester of choice from the pile and go get it. Repait tools, survey tools and anything you can imagine are all in that warehouse for the taking, and if it has use left when you are done, just put it back. If not, no worries, there will be more there tomorrow.

So, everyone is now empowered to play the game as they see fit. Sometimes we dont see each other for days, other times when someone needs Rancor Teeth we all go and get it for them. It's very workable as a system, it just requires trust.

And the only problem that leaves is the relative contribution of each player. Who contributes least in the group? The DE, and why? Well because having invested all those skillpoints in MA and DE there is a whole raft of game situations where I am a positive dragging anchor to the group. Now, if I had a droid that could add something to that hunting group, it would feel more like fair..but because my profession is limited in it's ability I just do what I can. I can still see no good justification why I need to spend useless points in mediocre pistolleer ability, when I would rather spend them on what I love..the Droids.

I have heard all the arguments, and I still believe there must be a way for a DE to have a better way of contributing to combat situations than a bit of pistoleer skill. No way will I ever accept comparison to Architect, Armoursmith, Chef, or even Weaponsmith. None of those logically can expect their creations to actually fight with them or have any 'mind of it's own', but a droid (much like a creature pet) should be able to. As an aside, these other crafting professions also make a lot more money than we do. I keep saying we are hybrid by the nature of our product, but it seems this cannot be understood.

Still the pure crafters say we should remain crafters, and pick up a rifle if we want to experience the content of the game. So whats the problem doing that with a droid instead of a pistol? So long as it costs skillpoints..why not?

Still have not heard a sensible reason why.

Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 02-28-2004 09:30 PM

Shian -- Master Droid Engineer/ Master Artisan

Boeda

Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:57 am

#22

>If you give combat abilities to crafting professions, then you should give crafting abilities to combat professions.<

I have said thios MANY times befor. Oh, I know,, I'll say it again! Fine!, Give Combats crafting capability. I dont think most of 'them' care that much. And more importantly that would be an issue for the Pistoleer Invasion, not these patches.

> Maybe Master Pistoleer should have the ability to craft Advanced R5 droids with Level 6 modules in them.<

No, I think somthing like custom, + speed holster belts, or pistol grips. Maby somthing pistoleer related ? yes.

>That'd be fair, and it would give them a leg up on crafting. Cause as well all know, Master Pistoleers suck at crafting.<

It would actually make sense to let people be crafters and adventurers BOTH. The best systems are where they are independant. Both doable on a single char. One not impinging on the other.

It is this i'll concieved effort to make an artificial forced dependance that is causing some of the constipation here. There will allways be those that want only combat, only crafting or some of each. Anywhere along the line. You dont have to enforce it with skillpoint law.

This Is one of the first games that non combat professions have been so well implimented (variety wise, and 'stuff to do' wise) Its a tradgedy its stunted by this effort for forced interdependance.

*( This is not the 'force' we are looking for ! ) *

- - -

There are No Steeenking 'Checkers' in crafting skillpoints !

Improved !!! Revised,"Alternate" New Combined DC/DE Hybrid Answer

Haruspex77

Mon Mar 01, 2004 3:05 am

#23

Kollos wrote:

Kollos is a Master Droid Engineer, Master Artisan, 3401 Merchant, 1000 Rifleman, 1000 Scout, 4000 Marksman. I might have missed something or be off by 1 or 2 boxes somewhere, but that's basically it.

I've done Jabba's Palace solo. I also did the Valerian missions while on Tat, then went to Naboo and did the Borvo missions (at least up until they were bugged. I solo'd a 23k HAMAncient Bull Rancor while tending harvesters on Dathomir. I've done several of the "adventure" caves, though not any of the high-level ones like Nightsisters.

I have no trouble accessing any of the end game content with my Droid Engineer as it is.

WOW, you are unbelievably good at combat in this game! But you are a little self contradictory about what you can access.

I hopethat the dev'swon't believe you either or there will be some major combat nerfs comming. Your combat skills are just past newbie, and you are using them to accomplish things that you shouldn't be able to do.

Shian_Tavkin

Mon Mar 01, 2004 5:09 am

#24

Just a couple of points are worth noting in this.

A. The Mobs and Themeparks are variously more difficult now than they were in the past

B. The Original probot was nerfed 'temporarily' while adjustments were made to game..and never un-nerfed

C: The DE profession was never finished in the first place..we have always had 75% of the checkers we should have had.

D: as a general rule, personal weapons have been nerfed (FWG5 is a prime example)

Not that this should detract from my prime point, I want to use my Pistol skillpoints in using another 'tool'..my Droid. Someone else likes Rifle? Cool, I prefer Droids.

Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-01-2004 04:12 AM

Shian -- Master Droid Engineer/ Master Artisan

Kollos

Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:53 am

#25

Haruspex77 wrote:

WOW, you are unbelievably good at combat in this game! But you are a little self contradictory about what you can access.

I hopethat the dev'swon't believe you either or there will be some major combat nerfs comming. Your combat skills are just past newbie, and you are using them to accomplish things that you shouldn't be able to do.

No, I'm just competent. PvE isn't has complex as PvP because once you learn MOB behavior you can use it against them. It's just not that hard to do any of the things I listed solo. It just takes some basic strategy and a bit of patience. You'll note that I didn't say I powered through them quickly.

And what's contradictory about what I wrote? What, just because I can't solo Nightsisters means that I'm contradicting myself by saying that I can access them? All it takes is a small group and with the gear I have (which is good, but not uber) I'm a welcome addition.

/shrug

Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

Droids by Kollos -840, 3980 Seacht, Naboo (NW of Keren)
Bounty Hunter Droids by Kollos 4924, 6107 550m SW of Kaadara
Vehicles and Master Artisan Components also available
paying 250k/point for Droid Assembly Skill Tapes, minimum of +4

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