Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: The Consensus On Combat Droids -- POLL SUMMARY
I started a thread about a week ago to try to isolate the consensus on Combat Droids in response to the vague "Official DE Plan", Thunderheart's questions to the DE community, and a spirited debate among us on combat droids. In this posting, I will loosely tally the results; this ain't a scientific poll and my numbers are not going to be perfect especially given that not everyone voted clearly and not everyone voted yes, no or indifferent on every item. I may be off by a bit, but clear patterns have emerged.
Here is the original thread:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=35665
Executive Summary
The Official DE Plan and its references to DE-only combat-modules loaded into protocol droids, etc., is agiant flop with the DE community. NOBODY WANTS THIS, DEVS. However, there consensus for new combat droid chassis that we can make and sell. There isconsensus in favor ofa game-balancing system (such as, but not limited to certs)for new and powerful combat droids. The consensus is that DEs should be able to use all the droids that they can make, except for class-specific droids such as BH-droids.There is consensus -- with a vocal minority --that DEs should get some kind of "special" DE-only perk such as a DE-only droid chassis, DE-only features or modules, or an extra combat droid. The consensus is also that DEs should get droidekas somehow.
Point-by-Point Summary
1. No one wants DE-only combat droids to be the ONLYnew droids we get. Likewise, few like the idea of combat modules for non-combat droids like Protocol Droids ("I'm programmed for etiquette, not combat" -- C3P0, Ep2.)
A total of 49 people agreed with this item and no one disagreed. Consensus is unanimous here: The Official DE Plan and its references to DE-only combat-modules loaded into protocol droids, etc., is agiant flop with the DE community. NOBODY WANTS THIS, DEVS.
2. Majority want new combat droids that we can sell
Forty-seven people agreed with this item and one person did not. The consensus is that we want new combat droid chassis that we can make and sell.
3. Majority believe there should be some sort ofgame balancing limit on new and powerful droids with certs being the most common --but not the only --solution proposed.
Forty people agreed that there should be some manner of game balancing system in place for high lvl combat droids, while six disagreed and two were indifferent. Different people have suggested differing approaches, but most say some manner of certification system is in order. There isconsensus in favor ofa game-balancing system (such as, but not limited to certs)for new and ppwerful combat droids.
4. Majority believe we should be able to use all the droids that we can make
The consensus is that DEs should be able to use all the droids that they can make, except for class specific droids such as BH-droids.
Poor wording needlessly complicated the consensus on this item. Approximately 30-34 people agreed that DEs should be able to use all droids they make; Five disagreed. However, eight people were concerned that statement #4 meant that DEs would be able to use class/proffession-specific droids -- such as BH seekers and medic droids without medical skills. Thus, the consensus is that DEs should be able to use all the droids that they can make, except for class specific droids such as BH-droids.
If a DE has medic skills, for example, they should be able to use a droid's medical module to full effect. Likewise, non-medic DEs should still be able to us a surgical droid chasis, if not the medical modules within it. But non-BH DEs should not be able to act as BHs and use seeker droids as BHs do, unless they have the skill to do so. Combat droids are not considered class/profession-specific. The consensus is that DEs should be able to use all the droids that they can make, except for class specific droids such as BH-droids.
5. In ADDITION to the droids in Point #4, many, but not all,want DE-only combat droids that are "cool" or "special" as a badge of our Droid Engineer-ness.
This remains a devisive topic, but the split is not 50-50. When you combine the number of people who want DE-only droid chassis, DE-only droid modules, or special DE-only features for droids that others can use, a clear majority favors some kind of special DE-only droid, module or feature. Thirty people agreed with the statement in this summary, while eighteen disagreed and two were indifferent. While there may not be a clear consensus for DE-only droids, the is a majority want some type of DE-only feature or droid with a minority in opposition. This majority in favor of some manner of DE-only perk is even stronger when you consider that some people -- five voted for this -- believe that DEs should get an extra combat droid above other classes.
Thus, there is consensus -- with a vocal minority --that DEs should get some kind of "special" DE-only perk such as a DE-only droid chassis, DE-only feature or module, or an extra combat droid. I believe that we should punt this information to the devs. Sintrosi should explain the multiplicity of perspectivesand their respective porportions, and we'll let the devs decide.
6. Give us Droidekas somehow!!!
Thirty-five people indicated -- many strongly -- that they want to be able to build or use droidekas somehow, while nine said they were indifferent and five opposed. Thus, taking into account the number of people who would not mind droidekas, the consensus is that DEs should get droidekas somehow. This question was not tied to whether or not droidekas should be
Other Points
Several people -- at least five -- indicated that they want DEs to be able to call extra droids, above the 1 service and 1 combat droid number being currently proposed.
Conclusion
Thanks to everyone who participated in this poll. Hopefully, it will serve to settle some of these issues so we can go on from there. For example, keeping in mind that a majority expects some kind of game-balancing system for powerful combat droids and that the majority wants to be able to use all the droids that they can make, how should the gama balancing system be structured. Perhaps some cert system is order, with DEs being certed as they gain the ability to make the droids, for further example.
Future polls might look into 1) cert/game balancing systems, 2) what DE-only perk might be cool (Chasis? Extra combat droid? Feature/module? Or none-of the above? Or 3) what new droid chasis to introduce. Etc., etc, etc.
Sodan-droiddreamer, I just wanted to say thank you for your time and effort that you have contributed to the DE community. I think that the poll has given a pretty clear indication of the direction thata number ofDEs wish for our profession to head towards.
Drashk wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer, I just wanted to say thank you for your time and effort that you have contributed to the DE community. I think that the poll has given a pretty clear indication of the direction thata number ofDEs wish for our profession to head towards.
Thanks, Drashk. With all the spirited debate -- whichI apperciate --I think it appeared there was more of a divide than there actually was.
As mentioned above, taking into account people that want DE-only droids, modules/features or extra number of droids, there is a clear majority of those in favor of one DE-only perk or another. So we even have a majority on the the most "divisive" issue. That said, the devs should bear in mind the minority when making the final call. We will not bridge the gap entirely.
ps thank you too for your efforts, Drashk.
/applaud
Thank you Sodan for taking the time and effort that is so clearly seen in your post. 
As to point #1, there are already two droids in the game we cannot make (droideka, IG assassain droids) And since so many of us want droideka, if Sintrosi decides that a special MDE only combat droid is the route we will go, I would like to see the droideka as our MDE only droid and the IG assassain droid as a new one to sell to the masses. The assassain droids were more common during this period I believe (not necessarily IG models, but assassain droids in general 
)
Good job on summarizing the results of your poll. Thx for spending the time on it. Only thing I would like to see now is a dev reply to this sumarry.....
The devisive issue is, and I believe always has been, whether or not Droid Engineers should get a unique, superior combat droid. By superior combat droidI mean one that isbetter than the combat droids that anyone can use (and which are therefore saleable).
Avoid that one issue and we speak with virtually one voice.
Ockal:
I'd suggest you re-tally those votes. If you really want to have this used as an "official representation", which is in itself a joke, then at least represent it properly.
Your attitude is just plain jank. I told you my numbers were not perfect. I told you it wasn't a scientific poll. I never said this was an official poll. Then you spit this bile as if I've said otherwise.Sadly, you're not gonna change the fact that the people who want a special DE-only perk are in the majority with your vehemance. This is precisely why I took the time to take this poll: to put trolls like you in yourproportionate perspective.
There were 52 people "voting", 28 were in favor, 20 against and 4 with indifference or no clear view, though 2 of those were more in favor of no DE-only combat Droid then they were in favor of it. Slightly different picture when viewed that way.
The question specifically asks if we should have a DE-only combat Droid, but to get results that you are looking for you have to include people that maybe want a DE-only module that is not neccessarily combat? If you wanted a tally of those who wanted "some kind" of DE-only module or Droid then that's what the question should have read. Don't go changing it after the fact to help your tally.
Many people added additional comments. Although I started trying to canvas opinion on a DE-only droid, it became apparent by reading people's comments that there are lots of people who favor some manner of DE-only perk. I am one of those people: give us droidekas to sell, droideka advanced with special features for DEs only. You can try to narrow the consensus, split hairs on the vote count, but you're not gonna change the fact that the majority of people who responded to the poll favor some manner of DE-only perk such special chassis, modules/features, or additional combat droids.
Rather than lament your loss in the marketplace of ideas, you should cherish it and move on. Pull the ol' Spock "needs of the many" attitude. It will help your ulcer. 
Finally, as for the limited reach of this forum and its ability to gather DE-consenus: No shizzit sherlock. Not every DE in the universe trolls here as you do; not every DE voted in the poll. There's an old saying among the Robert's Rules of Order crowd, however, that might work well here: The meeting is decided by those who show up.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
5. In ADDITION to the droids in Point #4, many, but not all,want DE-only combat droids that are "cool" or "special" as a badge of our Droid Engineer-ness.
This remains a devisive topic, but the split is not 50-50. When you combine the number of people who want DE-only droid chassis, DE-only droid modules, or special DE-only features for droids that others can use, a clear majority favors some kind of special DE-only droid, module or feature. Thirty people agreed with the statement in this summary, while eighteen disagreed and two were indifferent. While there may not be a clear consensus for DE-only droids, the is a majority want some type of DE-only feature or droid with a minority in opposition. This majority in favor of some manner of DE-only perk is even stronger when you consider that some people -- five voted for this -- believe that DEs should get an extra combat droid above other classes.
Thus, there is consensus -- with a vocal minority --that DEs should get some kind of "special" DE-only perk such as a DE-only droid chassis, DE-only feature or module, or an extra combat droid. I believe that we should punt this information to the devs. Sintrosi should explain the multiplicity of perspectivesand their respective porportions, and we'll let the devs decide.
I'd suggest you re-tally those votes. If you really want to have this used as an "official representation", which is in itself a joke, then at least represent it properly. There were 52 people "voting", 28 were in favor, 20 against and 4 with indifference or no clear view, though 2 of those were more in favor of no DE-only combat Droid then they were in favor of it. Slightly different picture when viewed that way.
The question specifically asks if we should have a DE-only combat Droid, but to get results that you are looking for you have to include people that maybe want a DE-only module that is not neccessarily combat? If you wanted a tally of those who wanted "some kind" of DE-only module or Droid then that's what the question should have read. Don't go changing it after the fact to help your tally.
I think what we need right now is to stop focusing on and turning the dev's focus to combat droids and bring it back to fixing whats broken and implementing some of the other great ideas we've had on this board.
1) At least with the DEs I speak to in-game, almost all of them don't visit these boards anymore. Put simply, "all you get are whiners" is the typical response they give. Kenner is the only Bria DE that I see posting here these days. What happened to Dossa, Ifrin and friends? Why do they no longer post here? These are MDEs that have been in the game since the start, yet feel that the boards no-longer serve their intended purpose.
2) I did not vote because the poll questions were so skewed to give an answer that was favourable to the DE-only droid answer. Either answering yes or no would be favourable to the DE-only camp, so I didn't vote. There was no way for me to register a negative vote there.
3) Ockal's reply is very pertinent to the thread. It shows that indeed there is no clear majority for the last question. The fact that you choose to flame him and not answer the points raised just goes show why many of the long-timers have disappeared to be replaced by a bunch of whiners.
If you look properly at the numbers for that last question, it quite clearly says that there is no consensus. People couldn't answer the question in the way that they wanted because of the leading question. THe simple fact of the raw numbers is that there was not a clear majority in favour of a specific objective, just a very hand-wavy response o "we want something". How can anyone not answer in the affirmitive to this?
To give you an idea of how loaded that last question was, I have 3 different answers to it. Firstly that it has already been stated that we will be getting some ability to call extra droids. According to your own analysis here, people are claiming that is a perk and that they want it. Fine, I agree. This is no different to the CH profession changes. We're getting it anyway. I don't agree on any DE-only chassis (combat or non-combat). So that's a no answer. Finally, at the master level, yes, there should be more incentives once reaching master, but it should be in line with other professions as DE is no different to any other crafting profession - I only want to and new things that are equivalent to those that are given to other crafters.
Now look at the way you've interpreted that last questions as answers. Not only did you ask a leading question, but then you completely screwed the reported results to confirm that leading question. That's the thin that is really annoying about it and which I saw happening from the outset and the reason for not posting a response directly.
Answering the questions on this survey reminded of the old old question..
"So have you stopped beating your wife?"
Not the kind of question you can answer with Yes or no.
And then there is the bit with control and sample population and standard deviations...
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
You can try to narrow the consensus, split hairs on the vote count, but you're not gonna change the fact that the majority of people who responded to the poll favor some manner of DE-only perk such special chassis, modules/features, or additional combat droids.
To start with, I appreciate what you're doing, but I think Ockal's concern was that your own biases show in your reporting. When the majority overwhelmingly support what you personally want, you cite specific numbers. When the results are a lot less decisive, and there is a significant opposition to your preferred result, you shy away from citing exact figures and make statements intended to marginalize the people who disagree with you. This is not allowed in responsible polling, as it diminishes the value of the results. Even an unscientific poll carries with it some obligation for responsible reporting.
I am one of those who stated that if the DE-only chassis were a combat droid, then I would be completely opposed, but if the chassis had only symbolic value, then I wouldn't mind. That could have been an "against" or an "indifferent," or with a little bit of intellectual gymnastics, even a "for," depending wholly on your interpretation. Since you seem interested in obtaining a particular result, I don't think it's hair-splitting in any sense for me to be concerned with how my response was counted.
Also, in reading through the thread, it strikes me how many of the responses that agreed with #5 were just "/agree /agree /agree /agree /agree /agree," while those who disagreed almost universally posted reasons for their disagreement, and most of them were concerns that a powerful DE-only combat droid would be unbalancing. Certainly I can understand the visceral attractiveness of having my very own giant combat droid. I just don't want to see another AT-ST situation in the game, even if it would benefit me personally in the short term.
It's certainly easy to point to poll results and say "ha-ha, you lost, end of discussion," but in this case I think the responses are sufficiently complex as to deserve more attention and discussion than the cursory hand-waving you provided in your summary.
At the same time, I'm not too terribly worried because there were so few responses that it's certainly not farfetched to expect the devs to read the responses themselves in addition to the summary. I would just ask Sintrosi to include an URL to the original thread and encourage the devs to spend a few minutes reading it instead of relying exclusively on the summary. I trust that they will get a balanced picture by reading the primary results, and Sodan ought to feel the same, even if he thinks they will arrive at a different conclusion, so that should be the best solution for everyone.