Droid Engineer Archive

Thread: So much for being positive and the truth

Sketh
Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:38 pm
#1

Thunderheart just said we asked for experimentation to count on the the DSC.


I read just about every post here, and have never seen that request - though, I have seen it to count on droids in general.


If this is how the devs respond to the olive branch that TK offered, then screw it, I'll stay jaded and cynical.



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Kollos
Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:46 pm
#2

We did ask for the Droid Storage Compartment to use Droid Experimentation and to give Droid Engineer Experience. It's on our list of "Top 5" issues. Not explicitly, but it's there.



Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

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duncje
Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:47 pm
#3

Sketh, really, you're not giving it a chance. We need to stay positive, otherwise the devs will not give much weight to our ideas/discussions. We have all been guilty (myself included) of dev-jumping and rantiness. I'm going to try and follow TK's lead here and at least try to act positive through the next couple publishes.


Oh, and if you go back to one of Gorantoth's old issues threads, you'll find that the DSC's granting artisan xp and using artisan experimentation was listed as a bug...





Beebo
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Gribnitz
Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:54 pm
#4

Sheesh, this is getting plain stupid now. We did ask for these to be changed to Droid Experimentation, but in the translation it took on the default of just about every other droid item and used OQ and Cond as the qualities.


I think it's time to start playing my TKA / BE on Farstar now. This is getting old reading this crap over and over again.


The DEV's ACTUALLY start to read our top bugs/issues list and start fixing some and on the VERY first one they fix, they get a bunch of **edit**ing grief over it. Grow up people ! Istarting to understand why we never see a red name in here.



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Sketh
Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:00 pm
#5

OK, took a walk away from the keybord to think for a few.


The change to the DSC was a nerf to the arch class. Though I didn't approve of the tone of the arch posts on the matter, it was.


However, if this is the ONLY change to droid experimentation (and the change isn't in exp, it is in materials required (OQ vs OQ and COND)), it means nothing.


Just becuase we offered the olive branch doesn't mean that TH should come in here being condecending. TH does NOT understand crafting. He may have played an arch for a few days - that is a far cry from playing a crafter / merchant for a month or six.


I still have hope. But like I said in TK's thread, give us a solid foundation to work with the devs on - not fluff, or anti-player rants. Give us some substance, and we will be the most constructive community on the boards.





______________________________________

Sketh Rial - Acting CEO CGZ Enterprises - Trade Minister for Riverveil
Master Droid Engineer - Master Artisan - Propagandist - Novice Carboneer
Visit Sketh's House of Droids (Tent) -3814, -1683 Riverveil, Corellia, Chilastra
Droid Owner's Manual - Version 4
Kollos
Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:07 pm
#6






Gribnitz wrote:


The DEV's ACTUALLY start to read our top bugs/issues list and start fixing some and on the VERY first one they fix, they get a bunch of **edit**ing grief over it. Grow up people ! Istarting to understand why we never see a red name in here.






They're not catching grief for fixing one of our issues. They're catching grief for nerfing Architects with a side effect of the fix, and then after being questioned about it by Architects implying that Droid Engineers asked for the nerf.


A little more clarity in the response to Architects and this might not have ever blown out of proportion like it did.



Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

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TheRealTK421
Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:33 pm
#7






Kollos wrote:

A little more clarity in the response to Architects and this might not have ever blown out of proportion like it did.





Okay...I really agree with this.



Kollos, thanks for being something of a voice of reason here.



/bow

Respectfully,






TheRealTK421 a.k.a. "Doughbacca"
SWG DE Correspondent
Co-Founding member of Ahazi DENet & SWG DEA (Droid Engineer Association)
"I think all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. ...I'm certainly not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am."


Jenden
Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:49 pm
#8






Sketh wrote:

OK, took a walk away from the keybord to think for a few.


The change to the DSC was a nerf to the arch class. Though I didn't approve of the tone of the arch posts on the matter, it was.


However, if this is the ONLY change to droid experimentation (and the change isn't in exp, it is in materials required (OQ vs OQ and COND)), it means nothing.


Just becuase we offered the olive branch doesn't mean that TH should come in here being condecending. TH does NOT understand crafting. He may have played an arch for a few days - that is a far cry from playing a crafter / merchant for a month or six.


I still have hope. But like I said in TK's thread, give us a solid foundation to work with the devs on - not fluff, or anti-player rants. Give us some substance, and we will be the most constructive community on the boards.









I think you missed the intention of the fix. The material stats required was just a byproduct, what they purposefully changed was the typ of experimentation the part used. By changing that, the material stats automatically changed. Yes, DSC's got fixed (I'm extremely happy with the fix, could never sell DSC's before since I didn't have master artisan), yes its harder for architects to make great stations as a result, but that just diversifies the market.


Where things did go wrong is when the devs didn't explain this clearly. Granted, Drashk did saturday I believe it was, but I guess not enough people read his post. Both groups screwed up, lets stop bitching about it and move on.




Jenden Morn - Master of Droids- Tarquinas
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Malitevv
Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:50 pm
#9






Kollos wrote:


A little more clarity in the response to Architects and this might not have ever blown out of proportion like it did.






I agree. I've been away for a bit from these boards. But I'm coming back and seeing this issue and ama littleannoyed.


The one thing that stands out in my mind is TH's post asking us all to be positive and stop being negative. I whole heartedly agree with that.


It would be nice thoughif he'd acknowledge that his statement to the architects on this issue was misleading in the first place. It is disengenious to ask us all to be positive while in the same breath tossing out empty rhetorical defenses in justification of misleading the architects in the first place. It's like pouring gasolinein the hallway in anapartment buildingwhile simultaneously chastising thetenants for playing with matches.


That said, I hope people can be positive. TH, if that is your goal, then drop the justifications when things like this come up and just apologize when you say something misleading. Doing otherwise is disengenuous and works contrary to your stated purpose.



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Nyght
Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:11 pm
#10


I'm sorry guys, but TH's answers/blames are just BS.


It is theirresponciblity to understand the mechanics oftheir game and the consequences of changes they make.


'Its too complicated' just doesn't cut it with me.


The developers need to think about the consequences of each change they will make. That is largely the definition that separates 'developer' from 'programmer'.


They changedDSC to different attributes because it was expediant to just copy code. (one presumes). How much longer would it really have taken to do it 'carefully' (i.e. right )?


Tell you what, I be happy to be positive. But they are going to have to except responsiblity for their side too.


'We screwed up' is a perfectly acceptable answer as long as one learns from it.


So far, no real appologies and no real learning.





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demosthenes810
Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:04 pm
#11

I hate to be like this, but TH did answer the why of this. The item was obviously originally going to go into Artisan, was probably accidently dropped into DE during development, and the settings never changed....or purposefully dropped in, and the settings never changed...regardless, it is now a DE item. DE items depend on OQ and conductivity....so this depends on that. Artisan items, until vehicle mumbo jumbo and whatnot, depend on OQ. Notice the difference...it has been fully brought in line with DE. He answered our 'bug' request by actually fixing it to how it should have been in the first place. It is exactly a change that should have been done whether or not the bug request was out there...the item was in the wrong object context.

But even if it does 'nerf' architect somehow, it is now the way it should always have been...It now falls under the proper category. I guarantee the fix to the griping you people are doing is to take the thing out of DE and put it in Artisan master like control units and the like. If that is what you want, keep whining.

I recently read an email on a mud dev list by Raph Koster talking about just this sort of thing...instead of trying to specifically set everything 'just right' in script, you fit things to a profile...it makes development much faster (good for us) and less complicated (less bugs, woot)...I would gander from how he described his views that they have a template for experimentation requirements that says 'I am a DE item, I depend on this' and then there are subsets of that that add or remove other requirements. And 'I am an artisan item, I depend on this'. This change was not a programming change at all, somebody just went in the database and switched the parent context of the schematic. There is no object model that grants DE exp but depends on OQ...it isn't there, so they can't just assign it without adding an entire newrecordset to the database. i.e. changes like this lead to errors, so it isn't going to be done unless it is a serious dev issue. This isn't one. Unless Raph Koster was blowing smoke out his arse, TH is NOT LYING when he says this is the only way to fix it. It must fit the model, it SHOULD fit the model, else it doesn't make sense. It was moved into the DE model...the other option was put it in the artisan tree where its current model was. Like I said, keep whining, it'll end up there.


Seriously, anyway, how is this a nerf? So you can't make 43.whatever crafting stations, now you have to make 40.whatever...so does everybody else...so your product is just as good as...*gasp* everybody else on your server. What, precisely, is the difference here, between that and how it was...when once again...you could make *gasp* just as good as everybody else. So old ones are slightly better...so are old vehicles now. Doesn't matter...these people can't buy those old ones, they are in use, so I'm not seeing the 'connection' as it were here to equalling less profit.

For now it is an issue of old schems being better. This will pass and life will go on. Holding to a valid object model is easily a hundred times more important in the devs book, and for good reason. I have no desire to have a lump of spaghetti code for a game on my computer, any more than they want to program it.
demosthenes810
Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:11 pm
#12

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((


They changedDSC to different attributes because it was expediant to just copy code. (one presumes). How much longer would it really have taken to do it 'carefully' (i.e. right )?


)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))



So to respond to this specifically they are not copying code...my god I hope they don't even THINK about touching code for this. If they are touching code for this, we are playing the worst designed game I've ever heard of. And copying code in it would not be expedient...it'd be impossible. This was a database change, not a code change, period. And databases don't just flex all over the place as you like...nor should they. They are meant to organize data. The fact is they aren't 'nerfing' anything, they are fixing a data mixup that never should have happened. Please learn how to develop before you start complaining that the development isn't quality. This kind of change shows that it IS quality, and that such changes can be made without the need to manipulate code which could cause all sorts of hemirraging all over the place. Editing lines of code means errors could propagate all over the place. A database is much more managable...and you don't just rewrite your database for a dumb, easy fix like this. It works how it always should have. Arch's aren't getting nerfed, they were overpowered to begin with, if you want to honestly view the whole thing in that skewed perspective.

Given a choice of a) we get this change so it is now in line with DE, or b) it is put into master artisan tree so we don't profit from it at all, take your pick. I guarantee you the entire reason it was done this way probably had something to do with TH not wanting to listen to you gripe.

But then, that happened anyway.


Cafa
Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:34 pm
#13



Kollos wrote:


Gribnitz wrote:
The DEV's ACTUALLY start to read our top bugs/issues list and start fixing some and on the VERY first one they fix, they get a bunch of **edit**ing grief over it. Grow up people ! Istarting to understand why we never see a red name in here.



They're not catching grief for fixing one of our issues. They're catching grief for nerfing Architects with a side effect of the fix, and then after being questioned about it by Architects implying that Droid Engineers asked for the nerf.
A little more clarity in the response to Architects and this might not have ever blown out of proportion like it did.





Exactly.

After reading the comment about what DE's normally have for quality experimentation I wnet and took a look over at SWGCraft. It appears THAT comment was right on. Since it moved into the DE experimentation tree the common denominator I see is OQ/Conductivity 50/50.

Well, here's hoping for one amazing spawn some time this decade. Thanks for the support from the DE community. I only wish the formula had been correct from the beginning.

Sincerely,

Fivo Asia



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