Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Droid decay proposal Version 0.3
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Jenden
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:05 pm
#1
Ok, here's the first version of a droid decay proposal that will hopefully make everyone happy. Please share your comments/suggestions and lets see if we can get something that everyone is happy with. Ideas for this proposal have been drawn from the various previous proposals on these boards, as well as my own ideas.
What is the goal of decay?
Ideally, decay will accomplish the following goals.
Improve the droid market on all servers for all play styles
Bring droid customers back to the DE
Not be a reason for people to not buy droids
How will decay be measured?
In order for this proposal to be successful, a new integrity rating would need to be added to all droid frame's, chassis, and final deed's. Some droids will have more integrity than others (for example, Binary Load Lifters should last longer than R3's). I believe it would be better if the integrity of droids was not purely done on a higher-level = higher-integrity basis. Something like a MSE, which has very little moving/exposed parts should have a bit more integrity than something like a protocol droid which is a bit more delicate. Thats just something I thought might be interesting though, nothing vital to the plan. Not listing any integrity numbers here, but rough estimates as to time droids last will be included later
When should droids decay?
Ideally, there should be a number of factors that contribute to the gradual decay of droids. A general decay of 1 integrity point every x minutes the droid is out should be enough to ensure that every droid will eventually start to have some wear and tear. The decay on destruction should be kept as a means for speeding up the decay of combat droids (which should decay the fastest of all droids). Additionally, any time an astromech is in a ship that is destroyed, the droid should take some integrity loss.
What effect does decay have on the droid?
Decay should have a number of effects on the droid that progressively get worse as the droid gets further into a state of disrepair. Here is a list of possible ideas:
Decreased droid movement
Droid randomly "powers down" (stops working until stored/called)
One random stat (function) on the droid stops working (until stored/called again)
Batteries drain faster
Cosmetic effects (sparks, smoke, etc)
Again, not all of those need to be implemented, they're just some ideas.
What happens when the droid's integrity reaches 0?
Once a droid's integrity reaches 0, it is considered "disabled". Disabled droids may be called from the datapad, but cannot move. All modules in a disabled droid stop functioning (though items and data can still be removed from storage) and astromechs will not function in ships.
How can a droid be repaired/maintained?
A few new parts would need to be added to the profession for this part. First off, some kind of droid reconstruction kit would need to be implemented. This kit would be similar to BE vitality packs in that anyone can use them and they repair a droid's integrity (though they reduce the max integrity for the droid).
Possibility for full repairs:
Droid refurbishment kits: Expensive kits that can completely repair a droid's vitality
Anti-Decay Kits: Allow users to keep one droid from decaying
Droid Refurbishment Center: Takes a droid deed and a disabled droid and coppies name/commands/color over
Droid Refurbishment Center: Can change modules and reduce decay
Droid Deconstruction: Can deconstruct a disabled droid into the adv. chassis version
How long should a droid last?
This is largely up for debate, but my feeling on it is the average life span for a droid without any kind of repairs is 1 month (at this point the droid would still be useable, but all of the side effects from the low maintenance would make it very unreliable). If a user cares enough about his droid to keep up on the maintenance, I see a droid lasting 3-4 months. If they really like the droid and want to keep him around, the droid can last indefinately via the refurbishment kits.
Conclusing
Ok, lets look at our objectives again.
Improve the droid market on all servers for all play styles
By instituting this decay there will be an increase in droid sales to people who don't mind just replacing their droid and don't want to deal with keeping up with maintenance. There would be an increase in consumeable sales to the people interested in making their droid last as long as possible. There would also be a new market for customers that want their old droid refurbished. I think this should satisfy all play styles (not only for customers, but also for DE's).
Bring customers back to DE's
Customers will return to the DE in order to either get repair kits, have their droid refurbished, or buy a new droid. This should serve to be a good increase in traffic to DE shops (or emails/tells to backpack DE's)
Not be a reason for people to not buy droids
The decay should be slow enough that people don't have a problem replacing their droids, and people that have grown attached to their droids can have them refurbished.
Ok, questions, comments, concerns, ideas, thoughts... lets hear em.
Non-DE take on droid decay
What is the goal of decay?
Ideally, decay will accomplish the following goals.
How will decay be measured?
In order for this proposal to be successful, a new integrity rating would need to be added to all droid frame's, chassis, and final deed's. Some droids will have more integrity than others (for example, Binary Load Lifters should last longer than R3's). I believe it would be better if the integrity of droids was not purely done on a higher-level = higher-integrity basis. Something like a MSE, which has very little moving/exposed parts should have a bit more integrity than something like a protocol droid which is a bit more delicate. Thats just something I thought might be interesting though, nothing vital to the plan. Not listing any integrity numbers here, but rough estimates as to time droids last will be included later
When should droids decay?
Ideally, there should be a number of factors that contribute to the gradual decay of droids. A general decay of 1 integrity point every x minutes the droid is out should be enough to ensure that every droid will eventually start to have some wear and tear. The decay on destruction should be kept as a means for speeding up the decay of combat droids (which should decay the fastest of all droids). Additionally, any time an astromech is in a ship that is destroyed, the droid should take some integrity loss.
What effect does decay have on the droid?
Decay should have a number of effects on the droid that progressively get worse as the droid gets further into a state of disrepair. Here is a list of possible ideas:
Again, not all of those need to be implemented, they're just some ideas.
What happens when the droid's integrity reaches 0?
Once a droid's integrity reaches 0, it is considered "disabled". Disabled droids may be called from the datapad, but cannot move. All modules in a disabled droid stop functioning (though items and data can still be removed from storage) and astromechs will not function in ships.
How can a droid be repaired/maintained?
A few new parts would need to be added to the profession for this part. First off, some kind of droid reconstruction kit would need to be implemented. This kit would be similar to BE vitality packs in that anyone can use them and they repair a droid's integrity (though they reduce the max integrity for the droid).
Possibility for full repairs:
How long should a droid last?
This is largely up for debate, but my feeling on it is the average life span for a droid without any kind of repairs is 1 month (at this point the droid would still be useable, but all of the side effects from the low maintenance would make it very unreliable). If a user cares enough about his droid to keep up on the maintenance, I see a droid lasting 3-4 months. If they really like the droid and want to keep him around, the droid can last indefinately via the refurbishment kits.
Conclusing
Ok, lets look at our objectives again.
By instituting this decay there will be an increase in droid sales to people who don't mind just replacing their droid and don't want to deal with keeping up with maintenance. There would be an increase in consumeable sales to the people interested in making their droid last as long as possible. There would also be a new market for customers that want their old droid refurbished. I think this should satisfy all play styles (not only for customers, but also for DE's).
Customers will return to the DE in order to either get repair kits, have their droid refurbished, or buy a new droid. This should serve to be a good increase in traffic to DE shops (or emails/tells to backpack DE's)
The decay should be slow enough that people don't have a problem replacing their droids, and people that have grown attached to their droids can have them refurbished.
Ok, questions, comments, concerns, ideas, thoughts... lets hear em.
Non-DE take on droid decay
Message Edited by Jenden on 04-01-2005 07:44 AM
jefmes
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:47 pm
#2
Looks like a great high level plan Jenden, I can go along with pretty much all of that.
Ideally, I still like the idea of integrating the repair with a JTL like function/interface that DEs would perform similar to an Image Designer. The "side-effects" of a worn droid like you've listed are all great, and I think would be even more COOL if they were realistically tied to individual component failure so that the failures provide "symptoms" that a DE could say, "Ohhh, so your droid is crawling along a little slower than he used to? Hmmm, might be we need to take a look at that there motivator, maybe it's getting worn!"
I also think the goal to keep the decay very moderate is important as to not make using the droids an inconvenience for customers. Looks good to me! 
Jenden
Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:59 pm
#3
jefmes wrote:Looks like a great high level plan Jenden, I can go along with pretty much all of that.Ideally, I still like the idea of integrating the repair with a JTL like function/interface that DEs would perform similar to an Image Designer. The "side-effects" of a worn droid like you've listed are all great, and I think would be even more COOL if they were realistically tied to individual component failure so that the failures provide "symptoms" that a DE could say, "Ohhh, so your droid is crawling along a little slower than he used to? Hmmm, might be we need to take a look at that there motivator, maybe it's getting worn!"I also think the goal to keep the decay very moderate is important as to not make using the droids an inconvenience for customers. Looks good to me!
Yes, I intentionally started high level so that we could hammer something more detailed out as a community.
As far as the modular decay goes... I believe that will require an order of magnitude more work. It would require a complete revamp of how droids are currently tracked in game. The system currently only stores a droid's stats (including a single vitality stat). The only thing that would have to be changed for that in my proposal is to tweak the vitality stat a bit. In some kind of modular system you have to store information about each component of the droid (which would also make it incompatible with all existing droids).
jefmes
Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:23 pm
#4
Yeah I just posted something similar in another thread. If something like this would take much less work to actually get it put in sooner, then I support it all the more. Nevertheless, I hope EVENTUALLY the entire system is changed into something more interesting. That's a good point too about the module info not being currently stored, I hadn't thought of that. If they ever were to create a new modular system though, they could port all existing droids to either an average value on the components or scale it based on other abilities of the droid. I'm sure it's do-able, but the question of course is time.
Jenden wrote:
jefmes wrote:
Looks like a great high level plan Jenden, I can go along with pretty much all of that.
Ideally, I still like the idea of integrating the repair with a JTL like function/interface that DEs would perform similar to an Image Designer. The "side-effects" of a worn droid like you've listed are all great, and I think would be even more COOL if they were realistically tied to individual component failure so that the failures provide "symptoms" that a DE could say, "Ohhh, so your droid is crawling along a little slower than he used to? Hmmm, might be we need to take a look at that there motivator, maybe it's getting worn!"
I also think the goal to keep the decay very moderate is important as to not make using the droids an inconvenience for customers. Looks good to me!
Yes, I intentionally started high level so that we could hammer something more detailed out as a community.
As far as the modular decay goes... I believe that will require an order of magnitude more work. It would require a complete revamp of how droids are currently tracked in game. The system currently only stores a droid's stats (including a single vitality stat). The only thing that would have to be changed for that in my proposal is to tweak the vitality stat a bit. In some kind of modular system you have to store information about each component of the droid (which would also make it incompatible with all existing droids).
Jenden
Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:29 pm
#5
I think the biggest issue isn't so much how much time it takes to code up, its is that the most beneficial way to use that time. I believe it would be a very large chunk of time spent for something that is really nothing more than a "coolness factor". That being said, thats starting to get a bit off topic.
Gron_DM
Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:51 pm
#6
lets see.........i cant think of aynthing other then trying to get a bit more specific on function scaling. So for example when a droid is at 75/100 integrity it loses like 5% on its function stats (if applicable).At50% int loses 25% eff., at 75% intloses 50% eff., so on.
YodaMac
Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:03 pm
#7
Well this first pass certainly shows some promise, I am pleased to say.
The droid reconstruction (player repair) and refurbishment (DE restoring) methodsare right in line with my ideas for decay. giving ample opportunity for players to keep their Plastic Pals if they really want to.
Can you clarify whether or not a "disabled" droid can be repaired at all? or is it a gonner at that point?
My biggest concern is over your proposed "lifetime" of a month for ignored droids, and 3-4 months for repaired droids. When you say "at this point the droid would still be useable, but all of the side effects from the low maintenance would make it very unreliable" (referring to the month old ignored droid) does this mean it's not disabled? or it is? Earlier you said a disabled droid would not function at all, but have items retrievable still. So I'm a little unclear about what happens to a droid who is used (not in combat at all) but never maintained.
My concern about the time-frame (which I certainly understand is just an initial stab) is that by making droids lives too short, we run the risk of steering our profession into a downward spiral of mass-produced crated-droid sales (my biggest fear! as it would totally change the very wonderful crafting experience that DE's currently enjoy). I'd rather see a regularly used droid (not combat) last for4 months on it's own (I mean come on, we should have a little pride in our work...heh) and then require refurbishing from a DE in order to be used again. Whereas if the droid was cared for with maintenance kits by the player... it would last for say 6 months or more before needing to be refurbished or destroyed.
And this may be too complicated to implement... but what about a period of time where the droid functions at 100% (say 2 months), then after that period, begins it's slow function decay. Not sure what the difference really is, cept that I'd feel less like I was selling lemons to everyone...heh.
Again, thanks for considering this version of decay, rather than rushing to make our poor droid buddies go "poof" every month. I have posted some of my concerns and alternatives (as you suggested) and appreciate you comments on those as well. I am sure I will post more as this develops.
YodaMac
Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:46 pm
#8
Further comment: (sorry, you asked for it...heh)
How will decay be measured?
Interesting idea about a droid's integrity based on their "complexity". I would love to see ANYTHING happen that might sway some folks from just buying R3s.
If their integrity loweredfaster than other droids (since they are most complex), then perhaps we would be able to convince a customer that an R2 or R4 or some other model would last longer, and therefore perhaps be the better bargain. Anyways, I think we need to revisit the amount of modules certain models can hold (BLL,protocol,etc) before that can be addressed....sorry - that's another thread. But that is an interesting idea. Though on the flip-side some might argue that an R3 is more sophisticated and should therefore last longer...but we all know the more complex something is, the more that can go wrong.
Interesting idea about a droid's integrity based on their "complexity". I would love to see ANYTHING happen that might sway some folks from just buying R3s.
If their integrity loweredfaster than other droids (since they are most complex), then perhaps we would be able to convince a customer that an R2 or R4 or some other model would last longer, and therefore perhaps be the better bargain. Anyways, I think we need to revisit the amount of modules certain models can hold (BLL,protocol,etc) before that can be addressed....sorry - that's another thread. But that is an interesting idea. Though on the flip-side some might argue that an R3 is more sophisticated and should therefore last longer...but we all know the more complex something is, the more that can go wrong.When should droids decay?
I agree that combat droids should decay faster than others (just not so fast that all anyone wants is a crate-o-probots or ten crates, and you can never sell just a good probot. Although if that happens, then some DE's could specialize in selling the crated combat droids, and the rest of us would continue with our utility droids) So,I dont know ifvitality decayneeds to be sped up any, just enforced as much as weapon/armor repair loss happens so they do require replacement after so many battles.
I agree that combat droids should decay faster than others (just not so fast that all anyone wants is a crate-o-probots or ten crates, and you can never sell just a good probot. Although if that happens, then some DE's could specialize in selling the crated combat droids, and the rest of us would continue with our utility droids) So,I dont know ifvitality decayneeds to be sped up any, just enforced as much as weapon/armor repair loss happens so they do require replacement after so many battles.
Also, I've read some other posts about the "decay" happening quicker when a droid is left "low power" before charging (similar to leaving your speeder out too long without repair) and if battery charging must be tied into "decay" (even though it is a rather negative user experience) I think it should definately be tied in with letting droids run on"low power". Either the "low power" phase causes a more rapid loss, or a battery charge after a "low power" warning causes a bigger loss than one before. (obviously this depends on the "stuck at 75% bug" to be fixed first.)
What effect does decay have on the droid?
Love those suggestions. Every one. At last I can have my Astromech shooting sparks even if I dont have entertainer skills.
Love those suggestions. Every one.
At last I can have my Astromech shooting sparks even if I dont have entertainer skills. What happens when the droid's integrity reaches 0?
What about a special way to "re-deed" disabled droids (ONLY disabled ones that can't ever be repaired). That way DE's also have a new and fun decoration to offer as well. Love to have that "limp" LE droid slumped over in the corner. (it still bugs me that the new dismembered Protocol decoration still MOVES! duh!) Anyways, putting "dead" droids back into your inventory (perhaps this should happen automatically) would allow you to drop some nice new decorations I think.
What about a special way to "re-deed" disabled droids (ONLY disabled ones that can't ever be repaired). That way DE's also have a new and fun decoration to offer as well.
Love to have that "limp" LE droid slumped over in the corner. (it still bugs me that the new dismembered Protocol decoration still MOVES! duh!) Anyways, putting "dead" droids back into your inventory (perhaps this should happen automatically) would allow you to drop some nice new decorations I think.Well, I hope so. I still fear what may happen to droid prices once customers learn that their droid will need regular maintenance and such. As a DE, I wouldn't feel right selling my droids for the same price I am selling them at now. I guess I would implement some sort of price cut (until some time when new droid functions get added to the game so I could raise them again), since I would be charging them for the droid, AND the maintenance kits, AND a refurbishment every "x" months. I guess that's up to the customers to decide what's fair.
Message Edited by YodaMac on 02-18-2005 12:14 AM
YodaMac
Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:57 pm
#9
oh, and one last comment (for now)...
Whentalking about the "lifespan" of droids, I suggested 4 months (versus your 1 month). Think of it in these terms - under that plan, you couldearn 3 times as much in a year. That's a good increase, but not too greedy. Who wouldn't want to triple their salary? (and dont get me started about how there really isnt much of anything for a DE to buy in this game... )
)Let's just keep the potential salary increase in perspective is all I'm saying.
Jenden
Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:33 am
#10
Bit of clarification on the disabled and repair thing. A disabled droid can still be refurbished by a DE, but can no longer be repaired by the customer (guess it could be repaired by the customer still if people really wanted this). As for the idea that droids would become difficult to use after a month or so, the proposed side effects would be a sliding scale deal. When the droid's integrity is at 75% it may just have a few sporradic querks, once it gets to 50%, it may be a little unreliable, and once its down to about 25% you really don't want to have to depend on it.
The reason I thought one month would be a good lifespan for any droids that aren't well maintained is that that helps keep a connection to a specific DE. If droids last for 4-5 months without any maintenance, its much more likely the customer will forget who the original creator was. Someone who maintains their droid so it does last that long will probably be seeing the DE for repair's from time to time anyway, keeping the connection there alive. I really don't think that a month is short enough time span for people to start wanting droids in crates, and any custom-order DE knows, its just not practical for a DE to carry all droid combinations in crates anyway. Combat droids are the only thing I can see really going in crates, but those already sell in crates so thats no change.
The reason I thought one month would be a good lifespan for any droids that aren't well maintained is that that helps keep a connection to a specific DE. If droids last for 4-5 months without any maintenance, its much more likely the customer will forget who the original creator was. Someone who maintains their droid so it does last that long will probably be seeing the DE for repair's from time to time anyway, keeping the connection there alive. I really don't think that a month is short enough time span for people to start wanting droids in crates, and any custom-order DE knows, its just not practical for a DE to carry all droid combinations in crates anyway. Combat droids are the only thing I can see really going in crates, but those already sell in crates so thats no change.
Atan
Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:06 am
#11
I personally dont like the idea of using batteries as a source of decay! It should rather directly be tied to the use of certain modules, like auto repair and of course low-power state. Why should i be punished for doing something good for my droid and recharge him even though he is still at 50% ?
Another thing is the refurbishment kit... how about a Architectmade oil bathing station? 
And the last thing i might add is thatnoticable Decay + Droids with personality chips = 
Can you say Marvin? ^^
YodaMac
Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:19 am
#12
Jenden wrote:
Bit of clarification on the disabled and repair thing. A disabled droid can still be refurbished by a DE, but can no longer be repaired by the customer (guess it could be repaired by the customer still if people really wanted this). As for the idea that droids would become difficult to use after a month or so, the proposed side effects would be a sliding scale deal. When the droid's integrity is at 75% it may just have a few sporradic querks, once it gets to 50%, it may be a little unreliable, and once its down to about 25% you really don't want to have to depend on it.
Okay, I understand this. But then, when is a non-combat droid "dead" for good? or is it ever? (trust me, I'm not arguing that it has to be!
) Also, as much as I fancy the notion of "side effects" I worry that as hard a it was for the DEVs to get certain modules to even work correctly in the first place, it may be unreasonable to expect them to add "side effects" (ala- mis-functioning modules or poorly functioning modules) and not end up with a billion new module Bugs!
The reason I thought one month would be a good lifespan for any droids that aren't well maintained is that that helps keep a connection to a specific DE. If droids last for 4-5 months without any maintenance, its much more likely the customer will forget who the original creator was. Someone who maintains their droid so it does last that long will probably be seeing the DE for repair's from time to time anyway, keeping the connection there alive. I really don't think that a month is short enough time span for people to start wanting droids in crates, and any custom-order DE knows, its just not practical for a DE to carry all droid combinations in crates anyway. Combat droids are the only thing I can see really going in crates, but those already sell in crates so thats no change.
Hmmm... I didn't realize crated combat droids were selling so much. I have always had good business selling custom combat droids, and not a single customer has ever asked for a crate of probots. Are you thinking more in terms of "bomb-bots"? Interesting.
As far as a month goes... I still think to myself... Thats only 4 weeks. 4 weeks. Just seems an awfully short time-frame both because of how long our droids last now, and how long I feel something like a droid "should" last (based on the movies....I know, I know... this is a game, not a movie. Still seems short.)
YodaMac
Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:25 am
#13
Atan wrote:
Why should i be punished for doing something good for my droid and recharge him even though he is still at 50% ?
This is a valid point that I have seen expressed in other threads. It is a negative user experience for something supposedly positive. Which is why I'm more in favor ofa battery not doing any real harm unless the droid has entered it's "low power" zone prior to being charged. Then it would take "hit" upon re-charge- "Shame on you human! (or whatever species) for treating your Plastic Pal that way."
Another thing is the refurbishment kit... how about a Architectmade oil bathing station?
Great idea! I love it. DE's loveshop decorations, and Architects need some DEV luv too.
And the last thing i might add is thatnoticable Decay + Droids with personality chips =
Can you say Marvin? ^^
If they ever "beef up" droid personality, this would be a terrific place to see that! heh. Just think of some of the kinds of things they would say...or try to say. Can droid's slur their speech?...heh
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