Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Idle thought concerning astromechs and combat
Icarus-6 wrote:
The only problem, of course, is that the HAM totals for the new combat droids is screwy. A probot, which is designed with the intent of being used in combat and which would be constructed with a great deal of ruggedness, should have significantly more HAM than an astromech or LE Repair droid. If that were the case then the majority of all combat droids would be probots and DZ70s with astromechs and LE Repair droids being the anomaly created by the crazy DE who decides to jam a couple of weapon modules into a droid that was never intended to have any.
The trade-off they seem to have built in to the system is firepower. A probot with 5 100% modules will deal more damage (153-163 or so) than an R3 with 6 100% modules (130-140 or so). An LE comes in with the bestHAM but the least damage (I have no clue what their best damage range looks like).
That's basically how I've been pitching it to my customers: do you want better HAM (i.e. tanking ablility), or would you rather have better firepower?
Based on that I've sold very few probots (although admittedly at my current limited skills (3/2/1/3)I can't build a really good one). I've sold a few DZ70's (900+ HAM and 93-98 damage), a lot of R-units (1000+ HAM and 82-87 damage), and several LE droids (1100+ HAM and 44-53 damage or something like that). It just depends on what someone's looking for. A lot of people just think it's cool to have R2-D2 fighting alongside them, regardless of how much damage it's actually doin'. The sarcastic chip in the LE droid is a big hit, too... 
Message Edited by OrionsByte on 03-23-2004 01:08 PM
OrionsByte wrote:
The trade-off they seem to have built in to the system is firepower. A probot with 5 100% modules will deal more damage (153-163 or so) than an R3 with 6 100% modules (130-140 or so). An LE comes in with the bestHAM but the least damage (I have no clue what their best damage range looks like)....
Yeah. To me this seems to be a case where the developers have tried to take balance too far, or at least they are using the wrong things to try and get the balance they want.
Pretty obviously what they were shooting for is three different combat droids, one that does high damage with low HAM, one with low damage but high HAM, and one that is balanced between the two, which is something people have been asking for and which is super to get.
The only problem is that I don't think that a probot should be balanced combatwise against an astromech or an LE Repair droid. Both those droids were not intended to be combat droids and while it is possible to attach guns to them they really shouldn't be as effective at combat since they are to some extent jury-rigged.
The balance should have been accomplished with two more droid styles. Honestly, one really big complaint with the patch was no new droid styles. I think if there were two new styles of combat droids many people would be much happier, even if those droids weren't any more powerful than the combat astromechs and combat LEs. Other people, those who don't want to see combat modules on astromechs would probably also be happy since I would imagine they could grudingly accept the possibility of putting combat modules into an astromech and getting an inferior combat droid.
I think you miss the point. Of course you would never see R2D2 do that. He doesn't have any combat modules. That doesn't mean though that it's impossible to build an R2 unit with combat modules. It just means the one we are familiar with doesn't have them.
Pallida wrote:
Uh huh... I can really see R2-D2 dealing with a recalcitrant Moisture Vaporator...
"bleep-bloop-wheeze-blat-blat
*C3P0's interpretation*
"DIE, you inferior thing!"
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
ssssssssSSS(:-<
A lot of people are upset at the idea of astromechs in combat and one particular argument runs, 'You never saw R2D2 pull out a blaster'.
While this is true I also never saw Chewbacca with a battle axe, yet I would not find it difficult to believe that a Wookie was capable of using a battle axe.
R2D2 was a single droid. You never saw him perform crafting duties, you never saw him perform medical duties, yet I don't think many people would complain about putting crafting modules and medical modules into astromechs. The fact is that we don't really trace the history of any other astromechs through the Starwars universe and assuming that everyone is going to be like R2D2 is like assuming that all Wookies wear no clothing other than a bandolier, only use bowcasters, and only work as starship mechanics for smugglers.
I think part of the problem comes from the term 'astromech'. Yeah, that would sort of imply they were only meant to run spaceships, but when Luke and Uncle Owen bought R2 from the Jawas they certainly didn't intend on using him to run a spaceship. Furthermore, you see lots of astromechs running around doing decidedly non-spaceship relatedjobs in the movies (though they do tend towards the mechanical).
As I think about it I honestly can't see a good reason why a droid engineer couldn't place weapon modules into an astromech. For that matter I can't see a good reason why they couldn't drop one into an MSE or a Surgical Droid. If there is a space in a droid for a modular component there is no reason it couldn't be filled with a gun as easily as a crafting station.
That said, I can certainly see arguments against how effective a droid might be with a combat module. Basic design would probably limit the damage an accuracy of any droid with a frame not designed for combat. Additionally most frames would probably not be built rugged enough for sustained combat (imagine an Advanced Surgical Droid charging into battle with its 3 gimped combat modules and 45 HAM). In essence combat modules into non-combat droids are somewhat duct-taped in and if they behaved that way I would be happy.
The only problem, of course, is that the HAM totals for the new combat droids is screwy. A probot, which is designed with the intent of being used in combat and which would be constructed with a great deal of ruggedness, should have significantly more HAM than an astromech or LE Repair droid. If that were the case then the majority of all combat droids would be probots and DZ70s with astromechs and LE Repair droids being the anomaly created by the crazy DE who decides to jam a couple of weapon modules into a droid that was never intended to have any.
Uh huh... I can really see R2-D2 dealing with a recalcitrant Moisture Vaporator...
"bleep-bloop-wheeze-blat-blat
*C3P0's interpretation*
"DIE, you inferior thing!"
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
ssssssssSSS(:-<
Icarus-6 wrote:
I think you miss the point. Of course you would never see R2D2 do that. He doesn't have any combat modules. That doesn't mean though that it's impossible to build an R2 unit with combat modules. It just means the one we are familiar with doesn't have them.
Pallida wrote:
Uh huh... I can really see R2-D2 dealing with a recalcitrant Moisture Vaporator...
"bleep-bloop-wheeze-blat-blat
*C3P0's interpretation*
"DIE, you inferior thing!"
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
ssssssssSSS(:-<
Nope.. I didn't miss the point.. at all... Since you started this thread by pointing up R2-D2 and Owen Skywalker's acquisition of the droids... I feel it only prudent to point out that Owen had NO intention of using either droid as a combatant. He acquired them for their expertise in maintaining the moisture farm... nothing more... nothing less.
At no time, in ANY of the pertinent storylines of the SWEU, have I found ANY indication that the Astromech series of droids were "combat-capable"... I will concede that R2-D2 was capable of emitting an electric shock... however, such shocks were never intense enough to inflict more than a minimal amount of non-lethal damage.... And, the ONLY time I observed R2-D2 utilizing a circular saw was when it was used to cut himself, C-3P0, Chewie, Han and Luke out of a tree snare.
The Astromech-series of droids were, for all intents and purposes, designed specifically for one general purpose... utility. I personally consider the Dev's implementation of "blastomechs" to be a perversion of theStar Warstheme and a blasphemy of the highest order.
ssssssssssssssSSS(:-<
Message Edited by Pallida on 03-24-2004 10:00 AM
Message Edited by Pallida on 03-24-2004 10:02 AM
Maybe not combat capable, but there's at least one mentioning of using a standard R2 shell, modify it, and end up with a different type of droid that looked like an astromech. The SB-20 droid mentioned in passing as Luke's visiting the pirate asteroid in Specter of the Past is an an R2 that's had its interior equipment replaced with advanced espionage gear (I think SB stands for Security Breach...) turning intoa camoflauged super-slicer droid with advanced encryption/decryption. Or thedekondroidwith spy gear inDark Force Ricing. Putting non-standard equipment not normally used in that particular chassis is not something unknown throughout the Star Wars universe. So though I find it annoying to have R3's with combat capabilities, I can't say they're wrong from a strict lore/contiunity point of view.
Pallida wrote:
Icarus-6 wrote:
I think you miss the point. Of course you would never see R2D2 do that. He doesn't have any combat modules. That doesn't mean though that it's impossible to build an R2 unit with combat modules. It just means the one we are familiar with doesn't have them.
Pallida wrote:
Uh huh... I can really see R2-D2 dealing with a recalcitrant Moisture Vaporator...
"bleep-bloop-wheeze-blat-blat
*C3P0's interpretation*
"DIE, you inferior thing!"
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
ssssssssSSS(:-<
Nope.. I didn't miss the point.. at all... Since you started this thread by pointing up R2-D2 and Owen Skywalker's acquisition of the droids... I feel it only prudent to point out that Owen had NO intention of using either droid as a combatant. He acquired them for their expertise in maintaining the moisture farm... nothing more... nothing less.
At no time, in ANY of the pertinent storylines of the SWEU, have I found ANY indication that the Astromech series of droids were "combat-capable"... I will concede that R2-D2 was capable of emitting an electric shock... however, such shocks were never intense enough to inflict more than a minimal amount of non-lethal damage.... And, the ONLY time I observed R2-D2 utilizing a circular saw was when it was used to cut himself, C-3P0, Chewie, Han and Luke out of a tree snare.
The Astromech-series of droids were, for all intents and purposes, designed specifically for one general purpose... utility. I personally consider the Dev's implementation of "blastomechs" to be a perversion of theStar Warstheme and a blasphemy of the highest order.
ssssssssssssssSSS(:-<
Message Edited by Pallida on 03-24-2004 10:00 AM
Message Edited by Pallida on 03-24-2004 10:02 AM
Actually, you did miss my point, as shown by your argument that Uncle Owen did not purchase R2 for the purposes of combat.My comments concerning R2 and Uncle Owen was that he purchased R2 to work on Moisture Evaporators, not a starship. This was because they are refered to as Astromechs and I was attempting to show they had abilities outside of the maintenece of spacecraft. I did admit that most non-spacecraft tasks that we see astromechs doing still tends towards the mechanical. I am simply saying that 'Astromech' is something of a misnomer.
Again, I am not arguing that R2s shock constituted a combat weapon. My argument is that you can't look simply at R2 and assume he indicates the capabilities of all astromechs.
You say that nowhere in the EU do you find mention of astromechs being combat capable. I have two question in return. First, how many other astromechs are really follwed to any degree in the EU and secondly do you find any indication that they are actually incapable of combat? I am not refering to what they are generally designed to do but rather a reference that says that it is not possibly to stick a weapon into an astromech.
No, I agree as well. As I stated above I don't really see a problem with putting a combat module into an astromech, but it should produce an inferior battle droid, not a superior one.
At that point combat astromechs would be limited to tinkerers who want something odd or RPers who are looking for a camoflaged battle droid and who are willing to sacrifice some effectiveness (which will probably be a pretty small group of people).
One last note and THEN I am gonna shut up and enjoy my "sabatical"...
Just because it is POSSIBLE to put amodern LS1 Corvette engine intoan old Corvair body, that doesn't make i appropriate to do so.
ssssssssssssSSS(:-<