Doctor Archive
Thread: Why Devs Won't give us Mind Heal, but how it can be worked around
Regarding Mind damage, the forum is filled with suggestions that 1) Mind damage should not incap or 2) Give mind healing ability 3) Remove Mind damage feature of the game. I think these points really miss what I think Devs are trying to do, especially in terms of the combat system.
First of all, mind damage should incappacitate. Game sense wise,(how much the game makes sense in terms of reality) it's a damage to the head -of course you would lose your consciousness if you got hit repeatedly in the head, right? It perhaps makes more sense than getting incap from leg shots... Game mechanic wise, (how it may affect the gameplay) I can think of a very simple exploit if it were to be implemented. That is, bring a meatshield! Already I can duo pretty tough creatures, and the only reason my partner and I can't kill godly creatures ie dragons is b/c his mind pool runs out. The partner rarely dies from health or action damage, b/c i stand next to him and spam him with full heal every 5 seconds. If he didn't go incap from mind, we could go the distance, and we'll be able to slain quite a lot of creatures that were not ment to be killed with 2 people. I would think that this would be unbalancing and undesirable to the game.
Second point I see often is that doc/med/cm want the ability to heal mind.Some want this feature to be available to another class, such as chef, entertainer or squad leaders. If the ratio of heal is 1:1 or greater, I think this is a bad idea for several reasons. First, is the obvious self-healing concept.It doesn't really matter who this ability goes to: If this ability was given to medics/docs, they would never die, spamming heals to themselves, while shooting between heals. If it was given to another class, theycan easily emulate using high quality stim b's to heal health and action,while using mind healing ability.Allow this ability only when the group is formed? Naw... it doesn't take much to figure out to form healing chains. Read on for what I think if the ratio was a bit different...
In any case, it would definitely make the PvP much longer. Given the huge potential for galactic battles between two massive sides in this game, mind healing would not be a positive addition. I can sense that Devs wanted PvP to be swift and decisive, and I think the it turned out even more so than they first anticipated. (Hence they are adjusting pvp combat damage.) Believe me, it frustrates me knowing that I cannot heal mind, but there's a definite finality about mind damage that cannot be reversed, and it's what instills fear into our hearts when you see a proned sniper across the hill. Being killed quickly, is how the battles are in Star Wars universe. Even the most climatic battles between Jedi's don't last that long. Really, a properly aimed blaster shot is all it takes to knock you out in this realm, and it should be that way according to the movies at least.Given that virtually everyone is a potential member in the galactic civil war, short decisive battles are good, and they also add to the urgency of the situation. Those who prefer counterstrike over quake would know what I am talking about.
Third, I frequently read that mind damaging abilities should be removed from the game. I'm sure you know what I think about this, judging from what I wrote above. Damaging mind I think isa legit strategy. Perhaps it needs to be balanced a bit, but the ability should remain. Perhaps it can be altered in a way that when the person is in prone position, the person would gain even greater bonus to avoiding a headshot. (It sounds logical at least.)
I think that too many people continue to think that mind is mana. It isn't. It's a new concept that we need to get adjusted to. There were numerous things that I needed time to adjust to since moving from a different mmorpg, but now I think that SWG is the best mmorpg despite its flaws. It's wonderfully complex, much more sothan any other mmorpgs, and it fosters responsibility and a great balancing act. I loved the focus on economy, (how our real world is based upon), I loved their implementation of maintenance fees (expanding the idea of ownership to include responsibility like the real world), positive vs negative effects of stats and armor,and little things such as online email system, everchanging resource system requiring constant care (so that the person who figured out first isn't given the big advantage), limited skill points, and automation using factories and harvestors.
So, learning from this great big balancing act of swg, I expect that if some sort of remedying mind damage is introduced, it would have negative consequence as well. Of course, it must not be exploitable, but it should also have great enough utility to be used every so often. Before I continue, I must say that there is a way to heal mind damage currently in the game. It requires you to kill a humanoid and loot Damage Stim Pack (I have seen only 2 so far, each with 5 charges), which allows heal around 50ish or so to the entire HAM bar. (You need to click on that item specifically if you have other stims in inventory, and the patient needs to have at least 1 health or 1 action damage to use it, otherwise you get the familiar error msg, 'the target does not need healing')
Anyway, I'm sure there are many ways to solve the perceived mind problem, but I'll post my 2 cents anyway. I think allowing mind heals at less than 1:1 ratio may be worthwhile along with some wounds per cast, perhaps at 2:1?. So you would use 200 mind to heal 100 mind of another. It will not allow self-heal, (it would be worthwhile to do so) but you'll be able to 'transfer' your mind, which as a doctor should be plentiful, to a person who is more needy. In turn, it would lessen the total pool of the mind in a given group, and it would limit the doctor to less stim use, and less revives. I particularly like the idea of changing Quick Heal (already useless) into something useful, by making it heal mind.
Another type of solution can be a squad leader 'evening out' the mind pool in his group. It will not heal the mind, but spread out the mind among people in his group. For instance, if A has 500 mind and B has 1000 mind, upon using this ability, both A and B would end up having 750 mind. Again, there was no such 'healing' thathas occurred - rather it's just redistributed. I think this transfer, or redistributing system would be least invasive to the current battle system, and make big enough difference to warrantsome newstrategies.
As for mind buffs,theyexist in the game already. Food and drink enhancing mind are the only types of food/drink a doctor should carry. Use spice as necessary to boost mind related stats. Other than that, I think the mind problem needs a bit tweaking, but nothing drastic.
My mind healing really wont work if its a less to 1 to 1 ratio
CM Mind dots do 300-500 damage a tic and last 15 mins..thats a lot of mind to keep up with that.....
Again.. mind damage is not physical damage. it's psychological damage. Physical damage is health or action damage. A hit to the head should just be lots of health or action damage.. not psychological damage. If entertainers can heal mind wounds then they are apparantly not real wounds like action and health. They can only befatigue and concentration wounds if entertainers can heal them..
If you get hit with a baseball bat in the head.. you don't go to a nightclub to get it fixed.
Therefore its logically stupid that a rifle can inflict heavy psychological damage. Thats why we feel we should get the ability to heal mind damage and wounds.. because if the rifle can inflict them, then entertainers have no right healing it because its not fatigue/concentration damage/wounds.
Elenora, that's b/c you are overly concerned with CM's disease ability. Do you expect some low lvl medic to mind heal someone who has been diseased by master CM? No, in addition, there's already answer to CM disease and that is cure disease. CM is the offensive healing class, whereas Doc is the defensive healing class, and both should have the means to, in effect, neutralize each other. The basic groundwork is set, but it definitely needs tweeking as I see doc's defensive abilities are not nearly as powerful as CM's offense.
Granted CM's ability to disease mind is extremely powerful - but changing the swg's deep rooted fundamental rule of not being able to heal mindto address CM's perceived unbalanced ability, will have far reaching consequences. It will complicate mattersbeyond mind disease - it will affect normal melee battles, it will affect headshots, it will affect the role of couple of classes... Didn't I just give explain to you in my inital post what the complications might be?
If you are concerned that docs can't really match up to combat medics, then you are not alone - their dominance comes from AE, and mind disease. In response, I think the correct way to resolve this dominance is to address it directly, in multiple fronts. For instance, I think it's possible and feasible for PvP damage reduction to eventually affect CM's DOT's. Another possibility is to introduce preventative medicine for doctors, something like a vaccine to the diseases. Another possibility is to introduce utility clothing such as gas mask to neutralize mind disease, and perhaps bio suit to neutralize body related disease. I can think of numerous other examples, but my point is to address CM's diease ability directly, rather than indirectly, ie giving docs ability to heal mind. Do you see what I am getting here?
Phomeister, I think you are being overly concerned as to really define what the 'mind' is. You seem to have a very specific definition for it - no wonder it frustrates you b/c the game hardly recognizes nor pays attention to your definition of 'mind.' To me, mind is defined rather loosely - some sort of combination of psych and physical head. It's impossible to come up with a synonym in real life terms, b/c there is no such equivalent. But you are fighting a losing battle trying to find a logical equivalent of it in reality. Once you accept that it is inclusive of both physical head and the person's mental being, then it's easier to see the how mind is affected.
Mind is someone's mental/psychological effort or excertion when a doctor uses medpack to heal someone else. That, I'm sure you agree with. Then it would also make sense to ease and relax in the cantina to heal them. On the other hand, it is also physical head, as one can see from how 'head shot' affects the mind pool. The fact that helmets mitigate this damage also supports that it is some sort of physical damage on the head. You are probably right in that you should not heal this type of damage in a cantina in real life - but as the game has been programmed, that's how things work in swg's universe. Remember, a game is not an exact replica of reality, none of the developers had made such claim, and i need not tell you this. Therefore, you cannot base your argument on how things work in reality.
I believe that the physical Mind pool is just your consciousness, or mental alertness. When you suffer a blow to the head... it doesn't necessarily knock you out.. unless it's a severe blow to the head, in which case you receive severe mental trauma and the brain temporarily shuts down. In game, if you receive an overcharged head shot, that could possibly be 1K mental damage. For a human doctor, that's pretty much it (I have - I believe - max mind, and that's 1100). When you tend to someone's wounds, or use a medical pack, you are having to concentrate. That's mentally exhaustive, and if you continue to mentally exhaust yourself you will tire, and if you overdo things, you will fall unconscious. The game doesn't let you get to that point. But if you're mentally exhausted and someone hits you upside the head, even a blow that wouldn't have knocked you out normally could indeed take you under in that instant. Same in game.
Personally, I didn't know that the mind pool could be healed by entertainers. I know it heals slowly on its own - faster if you sit. Mental wounds, however... well, it makes some sense, perhaps by watching someone dance or listening to music you become more awake or aware. That's possible in the real world. When you sit around and listen to music, I can see how that could improve your ability to focus or your willpower - I concentrate better when I have music in the background. I really don't see how it can't be understood.
As far as the fear of snipers... yes.. it's a healthy fear. I can challenge anything but a rifleman. Why? Headshot. It's the answer that gunman need to counter healers. If they can't target your method of healing, they really wouldn't stand a chance - even against a medic. If you have competant pistol skills, you really (as a healer) only have to worry about head shots. 200 - 500 damage to your HA stats? That's a single shot of stimpack. If you're kneeling and your focus /willpower is pretty good.. your mind will restore pretty darn quickly and you'll be back to full again ready to heal. If you're at the least a novice marksman with even the first tier of Carbineer or Pistol.. you can be hammering away at their HA stat pools. If they can't heal, it's really just a war of attrition that you can't lose. I don't really PvP... but I can see just initiating combat, bleed-shotting them, and then using some cover while I wait for them to bleed to KO. It takes me a couple attempts to remove bleeding from someone with First Aid.
And now, why can't doctors heal mind? Referring to my other post... can a doctor make you feel mentally better? No. If you get beat savagely by something.. can they make the fear of that thing go away? No... doctors can heal your body, they can't heal your soul. It would be nice.. but it would make us invincible as well. It would be nice if we could craft some medicines that could buff mind. Maybe if they added a Psychiatry (Psychology?)field or something. But I don't have enough skill points. I'd give up something if I had to, though.
If you read the devs answers in the rifleman thread.
The devs have the rifleman purposly under-powered because of there ability to deal mind damage.
Elenora,
Yes you are right, I was referring to poison, rather than disease, and also that the cure packs needs upgrades. But when I say that we can deal it directly in different facets, it doesn't mean that each method would completely neutralize poison. For instance, the proposed gas mask may reduce the effect of poison by 50 per tick or whatnot. Just something to slow it down so as to give doctors time to apply cures on them. Same with vaccine idea, it may slow it down so that it gives more headroom time.
As for the thought of CM's becoming the most powerful class, it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Dev could might as well make poison deal deathblow, or the effects of poison stops after the player is incap. And don't forget cure poison, b/c a doc may just stim the player to bring out incap and apply cure.
But all this chatting maybe a mute point - To quote riflemen board:
Low Damage Output – Riflement feel that they have low damage output which makes them suffer in groups. Due to the length of time it takes to shoot, the targets are typically dead and the rifleman gets about 30% of the experience everyone else gets.
Response from Designer: There are advantages to every class and the advantage of the rifleman is that mind damage generally can’t be healed in a battle.
As suspected, Devs made this part of the design in the combat system. They don't want mind to be a healable attribute. It wasn't an oversight on their part when medic related classes did not receive mind heals. When the proponents say Docs should get a mind stim that does less than 1:1 ratio, so that it is more of a 'transfer' of mind so as to remain within the Dev's design of mind not being 'healed,' what the proponents are trying to do is to make Docs more powerful, within the overlaying rules of the game. In all truthfulness, whether the stim heals for 1:1 ratio or not, any form to replenish mind given to docs would probably make docs the most powerful class in the game.
Which would make Rifleman unable to incapacitate which would again make doctors practically invincible and make players invulerable to mind incapacitation on the field, which - for all practical purposes - means a whole lot less dying.
Essentially, won't happen. =)
Snooze,
Read second paragraph of what I wrote on my first post of the thread please.
Maybe it would be easier to just correct the doctor/combat medic asymmetry and remove the mind related disease and poision abilities. Putting combat classes that damage mind aside, it doesnt make a lot of sense that medicines cannot affect the mind, but poisions can.
That said, i think everyone analyzes the metaphysical implications of mind pool damage a little too much. Even if mind pool refers to the amorphous "mind" rather than your physical head, it doesnt make much sense when you realize that your character fainted due to mental exaustion caused by being shot in the head. I'm sure being shot in the head is a mentally exausting task, but id think the physical damage caused would be significant too. It's just a balance thing, which im not entirely sure is a very healthy game mechanic.
First of all i think u are mistaken...disease is less a problem them poison is..disease = wounds poison = damage...
Even a master doctor will not be able to keep up mind heals against a CM if mind healing is less than 1:1...so in effect you are making the CM class the most powerful in the game...this cant happen otherwise you will destroy PvP. Rememeber mind poison can last anywhere in the range of 15-20 mins and even Master doctors with the highest cure packs will require no less than 3 applications to stop the poisons...SO its obvious that cure line in doc needs a buffing...all you would be doing is nerfing the 2 other major mind damaging classes and that are BH and rifleman. Basically u could just drag anincap player and mind stim them and htey are back in the fight...but if u did that with a CM mind incapped target the mind poison would tick away and reincap the plater..so in effect you make the CM even stronger by weakening the other classes....
Less than 1:1 mind heals in PvE also limited usefulness...there have been a billion posts outlining why less than 1:1 ratio in mind healing fails in PvE as well...
anything that complete neutralized the CM dots would be unacceptable to the CM class...such a move would have to accompanied by say 100%absorbtion armor or nondecaying shield generators...you would then have to add falme resistant clothes to prevent commando from setting u on fire with flamethrowers or rubber clothing to protect from BH LLCs...uyou just cant totally neutral a classes attack unless its a class skill like doctors cure...
Glorie and Pho have basically summed up the true issue with mind damage...
Is mind damage physical or is it mental? Until the devs make this clear which they obviously show no signs of doing the mind issue can not be resolved...you will run into the same issue over and over...the camp that say mind healing should be in because mind pool is targetable by attackers and those that say no no no mind healing because its all mental hence why you have to go to a cantina to have mind wound healed...
unless SOE clear defines what the F*ck mind damage is...no solution can be made...