Doctor Archive
Thread: Erm.. Buff nerf?
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Shiro_Okami
Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:39 am
#1
This morning just before reset I was told about plans to "nerf" buffs...
Could someone give me a breakdown of how this will happen?
I'm sure there are negitive's and positive's to this.. just interested in the details. =)
paladin0111
Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:05 am
#2
what i heard was that it was gona be a persentage of the max health that u have up to 100 percent so if u have 400 health and action the max u can have is 800
Putt_Ski
Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:49 am
#3
So will the % increase be based on our buff pack ratings? I guess what I am asking is will we still need to make 900+ rated buff packs, or is that going to be wasted on someone with only a 400 health bar? are we going to have to start carrying around 4 or 5 different buff pack levels (400, 500, 600..etc.)to do the job of buffing a group, so we are not wasting the expensive 900 packs on someone witha 400 HAM? I agree that buffs do need to be knocked down. It is ridiculous that i can solo enraged rancors by just walking in on them a trashing them all (I am Dr TK), but i don't think a solid cap is the way to go. I thinkit would be better to go with the packrating and a multiplier for skill level (Master Dr does better than lower level docs) now the multiplier doesn't have to be hughe, say a 900 pack does 1350 for a master doc and 900 (or 720) for a non master doc.I think it would be fine if the 900 pack only did 900.I just hope that they make sure that there is a clear advantage to being a master doc as well as making it advantageous to make good meds.I am not a buffing doc by trade (I case you thought so) I just feel that the master levels should have more of a benefit than they currently seem to, and I don’t want to see all of our hard crafting be wasted on giving just a 400 buff.That would be worse than the random buffing I think, because at least then you could have hope that they would all go good.
Agent001
Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:11 am
#4
paladin0111 wrote:
what i heard was that it was gona be a persentage of the max health that u have up to 100 percent so if u have 400 health and action the max u can have is 800
and a dev said this where?
taloncard
Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:31 am
#5
well according to TH
(paraphraseing here)
Multithousnad power buffs were never intended, they are the result of clever players working the system.
Ain't it gret when the community relations manager implies you are an exploiter when you are working within the confines of the system
(paraphraseing here)
Multithousnad power buffs were never intended, they are the result of clever players working the system.
Ain't it gret when the community relations manager implies you are an exploiter when you are working within the confines of the system
MrSensitive
Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:37 am
#6
I dont' find that TH statement to be offensive, he has said far worse to us CHs. 
I think "clever" and "working the system" are good things. However I also like the above presented idea about the 100% buff max thing. I know I am in the minority there though.
Happymob
Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:03 am
#7
We know there will be a buff rebalance (or nerf if you prefer). We have no idea how this will work, but people have speculated the following as possibilities:
- The raw numbers will go down. So no more 2500 power buffs.
- The regen and special cost formulas will become non-linear. This may mean that we still have 2500 power buffs, but the value of the last 500 isfar less than the first 500 on the buff. For example, each 1000 in a stat might cut the special cost in half (a logarithmic formula). Under this system, you get diminishing returns and can never drive costs to zero. As a concrete example, suppose my /headshot3 costs 160 mind with my T-21 at 0 focus. At 1000 focus, it would cost 80 mind. At 2000 focus, it would cost 40 mind. At 3000 focus, it still costs 20 mind. At 500 focus, it would cost something like 106 mind (whatever the logarithmic formula spits out). Thunderheart actually mentioned a non-linear formula in the HAM revamp post, but no details were given.
- The buffs could be based on a percentage of the base stat. So a 900 base power buff pack might instead become a 225% buff pack. On a stat of 1100, this would still be a lot, but on a stat of 400, much less. This has the advantage of making stat selection meaningful again.
Eyedun
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:09 am
#8
Happymob wrote:We know there will be a buff rebalance (or nerf if you prefer). We have no idea how this will work, but people have speculated the following as possibilities:
- The raw numbers will go down. So no more 2500 power buffs.
- The regen and special cost formulas will become non-linear. This may mean that we still have 2500 power buffs, but the value of the last 500 is far less than the first 500 on the buff. For example, each 1000 in a stat might cut the special cost in half (a logarithmic formula). Under this system, you get diminishing returns and can never drive costs to zero. As a concrete example, suppose my /headshot3 costs 160 mind with my T-21 at 0 focus. At 1000 focus, it would cost 80 mind. At 2000 focus, it would cost 40 mind. At 3000 focus, it still costs 20 mind. At 500 focus, it would cost something like 106 mind (whatever the logarithmic formula spits out). Thunderheart actually mentioned a non-linear formula in the HAM revamp post, but no details were given.
- The buffs could be based on a percentage of the base stat. So a 900 base power buff pack might instead become a 225% buff pack. On a stat of 1100, this would still be a lot, but on a stat of 400, much less. This has the advantage of making stat selection meaningful again.
I like those last two ideas alot. I also think there needs to be a timer between specials, like a small bar that gets depleted (its determined from base stats, buffs dont affect it) when you use a special. it gets depleted the same amount for ANY special, and will allow say 3-4 specials to be chained before being "empty" ..it will recharge reasonable quickly (like in 5-10 seconds) .. so spacing your specials out and thinking about what your doing would be advised. specials would still cost HAM, and use a formula like above. This would not allow for spamming specials as we have today.
I think Buffs need to be percentage based aswell, that way poeple will need to rethink their 400/400/1100 HAM Templates. a 400 Health would only lead to 600-1200 HAM under buffs (novice Dr to master Dr) .. or how aobut only buffing secondaries ?.. making primaries unbuffable (except via food perhaps ?).. and making food not work on secondaries. ..i dunno..havent put much thought into that last idea.. just kinda spewed out.
but something def needs to be done.
lund0529
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:39 am
#9
I'll guess that they'll make them (Power/1000) as a percent of stat buff, maybe with a 100% cap. Mathmatically, it's nice round numbers, and base-1000 numbers might mesh well with resource stats somewhere. /shrug
900power = 90% buff
1014 power = 100% buff
A 500pt stat then would be 1000 fully buffed. Then they may just add a multiplier to get it where they want it.
Entertainer buffs are 100% at maximum. I'm guessing this was kind of the soft target they were aiming for with us, but couldn't quite figure out how to do it with crafted items.
Whatever they do, it's likely going to be messy for awhile. 
paladin0111
Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:52 am
#10
Agent001 wrote:
paladin0111 wrote:what i heard was that it was gona be a persentage of the max health that u have up to 100 percent so if u have 400 health and action the max u can have is 800and a dev said this where?
i dident say that a dev had said that i said that is what i had heard indeed i may be wrong and i probably am
Shiro_Okami
Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:12 am
#11
A 500pt stat then would be 1000 fully buffed. Then they may just add a multiplier to get it where they want it.
I've been hit with a special for 3355 points of damage. The regular attacks were 350-450 points.
hehe.. this Balance worrys me personally. Then again, I'm newb to the combat scene which is why I'm askin about the "Balance/Nerf".
Forgive my calling it a "nerf", but in my history of online gaming, 80% of the time when a Balance is in conception the outcome ends up a "Nerf".
DomMantell
Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:33 am
#12
If the devs stop to think about this properly for 5 minutes they'll quickly realise that a nerf to both buffs and armor is going to cause massive problems.
If they introduce a system where the best buffs you can produce simply double your current health & action pools (like entertainer buffs) most of the high end content in the game is going to be off-limits to the vast majority of players.
A decent HAM setup (for a human) if this change was made would look like this:
800
600
400
800
600
400
800
600
400
Add in doctor buffs, 2 brandies (average of 400) and an ahrisa (400 again) and you end up with:
1600
1200
800
1600
1200
800
2400
2400
1600
Consider now that you're wearing the best composite available post-nerf, say 50% effectiveness
Now go do the corvette, or the DWB, or go fight some nightsisters and then come back and say that dying in 1 shot was great fun
If they introduce a system where the best buffs you can produce simply double your current health & action pools (like entertainer buffs) most of the high end content in the game is going to be off-limits to the vast majority of players.
A decent HAM setup (for a human) if this change was made would look like this:
800
600
400
800
600
400
800
600
400
Add in doctor buffs, 2 brandies (average of 400) and an ahrisa (400 again) and you end up with:
1600
1200
800
1600
1200
800
2400
2400
1600
Consider now that you're wearing the best composite available post-nerf, say 50% effectiveness
Now go do the corvette, or the DWB, or go fight some nightsisters and then come back and say that dying in 1 shot was great fun
GuardianHawk
Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:01 am
#13
so far it is all speculation and suggestions by players
I made a suggestion before but I think it was missed because people simply don't seem to have enough imagination to understand it. So I will try one more time making yet another suggestion from one nearly insignificant player.
Suggestion goes like this:
Make the changes in buffs happen through a new formula for encumberance of armor. In other words when you put on your armor the encumberance amount could be a non-linear formula based on your stats. So the encumberance of the armor woiuld behigher for someone with higher stats. This would mean thatsomeone with a combination of armor and a buff would see less benefit from the buff.
An upside to this is that no matter how low your stats are you should be able to put armor on. Granted you won't have much for a stat left if you started really low to start with but at least you could get it on. Just think how crazy it is that you need a buff just to even get your armor on. That shouldn't be that way.
Of course this idea revolves around the concept that it is not the fault of armor or of buffs but the combination of the two that is the problem. If that assumption is correct then this solution would make a lot of sence.
This is just my suggestion. I really hope people will take a few seconds to think about how this would add diversity to the game as well as balance. I have my fire blanket ready (it gets a lot of use on the forums) but please just think for a second about how this would actually work in the game before responding.
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