Doctor Archive
Thread: About the DevChat Area Cures and Innoculations : Feedback Time, Folks
Giftmacher
Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:20 am
#27
Oh and a word on CM components to craft innoculations, I don't like this idea because why should a CM sell a doctor something that will damage their own effectiveness in combat? I think it will limit availablity of innoculations too much.
Oh and to those of you drawing parallels with rl vaccines using live viruses etc. entirely synthetic vaccines are in use and indeed likely going to be prefered in future.
Gift.
VemaGara
Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:59 am
#28
Here's what I think: the problem with combat medics is that there is no effective counter against them. We want some mechanism to work against them that are fun in game.
- Area cures belong to combat medics. Area cures are the single most important counter that needs to be implemented.
- Delay the action of poison and disease for XX seconds. Experimenting for more power gives the agents longer delays. Delays gives time for the doctors to react. If the combat medics want fast acting agents, then the agents won't be as strong. If they want strong agents, the delay time will be much greater. The agents will be more effective, but others will have a better chance at countering their effects before they begin.
- Armor should provide some protection against agents. Full composite armor and ubese should have 90%-95% resistance vs. these agents in air dispersal attacks. (The person is fully suited up and wearing and enclosed helm!)
- Allow docs (or maybe bio-engineers) to create hazzard masks which act against agents. These masks get used up over time.
- Allow innoculation vs. air-dispersal attacks in pill form. Anyone can use these. (Doctors don't need more lines. LINES ARE BORING FOR EVERYONE!!!) These pills only need to last for 1-5 minutes to be effective. Think of these as stop-gap measure. They last long enough to survive, but not so long that characters are immune. The pills delay the onset of the agents. When the pills run out, the agents start working. This allows characters to stay alive without gimping the need for doctors and combat medics in the field.
- Avoid solutions that cause people to form lines.
- Area cures belong to combat medics. Area cures are the single most important counter that needs to be implemented.
- Delay the action of poison and disease for XX seconds. Experimenting for more power gives the agents longer delays. Delays gives time for the doctors to react. If the combat medics want fast acting agents, then the agents won't be as strong. If they want strong agents, the delay time will be much greater. The agents will be more effective, but others will have a better chance at countering their effects before they begin.
- Armor should provide some protection against agents. Full composite armor and ubese should have 90%-95% resistance vs. these agents in air dispersal attacks. (The person is fully suited up and wearing and enclosed helm!)
- Allow docs (or maybe bio-engineers) to create hazzard masks which act against agents. These masks get used up over time.
- Allow innoculation vs. air-dispersal attacks in pill form. Anyone can use these. (Doctors don't need more lines. LINES ARE BORING FOR EVERYONE!!!) These pills only need to last for 1-5 minutes to be effective. Think of these as stop-gap measure. They last long enough to survive, but not so long that characters are immune. The pills delay the onset of the agents. When the pills run out, the agents start working. This allows characters to stay alive without gimping the need for doctors and combat medics in the field.
- Avoid solutions that cause people to form lines.
Glum_Moonfist
Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:28 am
#29
Wow. I can't believe how many Docs are willing to sell out our profession here and turn us into nothing but BuffBots at Coronet. Giving CMs the ability to /cureX is a bad idea!
A few thoughts:
1) If we are going to use the whole ranged/nonranged argument as the basis for giving CMs the ability to AreaCure then I want to know why Docs can't ApplyPoison at close range?
2) Maybe instead of giving CMs the ability to completely cure, the Area effect could instead be a drastic lessening of the poison until a Doc arrives at the scene?
3) As much as it would benefit me to be innoculated & sell them alongside buffs, isnt this basically the same as nerfing the damage of CMs (something I know they complain about). It doesnt take a genius to figure out within days of this being implemented that EVERYONE will be getting innoculated & the 12pt crafters will be making godly ones that completely make CMs useless. Lets keep it simple and stick to the ability to AreaCure poison/disease which is all we really need instead of adding innoculations into the mix.
A few thoughts:
1) If we are going to use the whole ranged/nonranged argument as the basis for giving CMs the ability to AreaCure then I want to know why Docs can't ApplyPoison at close range?
2) Maybe instead of giving CMs the ability to completely cure, the Area effect could instead be a drastic lessening of the poison until a Doc arrives at the scene?
3) As much as it would benefit me to be innoculated & sell them alongside buffs, isnt this basically the same as nerfing the damage of CMs (something I know they complain about). It doesnt take a genius to figure out within days of this being implemented that EVERYONE will be getting innoculated & the 12pt crafters will be making godly ones that completely make CMs useless. Lets keep it simple and stick to the ability to AreaCure poison/disease which is all we really need instead of adding innoculations into the mix.
Menoetius
Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:24 am
#30
Question: What about ranged cure along the same lines as ranged stims?
vortexala wrote:
How do YOU see Innoculations being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
Doctor only ability, 2 packs (1 poison, 1 disease) 3 versions of each pack with increasing power and med useskill
Components: ABEC, ALS & ASDS.
Crafter: Doctor
Resources: Twice that ofCure Disease/poison, but named resources (ie specific greens/flowers from a certain planet and certain named inert gas)
Levels: Skill available at 0020 Doctor (poison) 0040 Doctor (Disease)
Effect: Similiar to a stat enhancement, adds a base amount to players poison/disease resists (use the same forumla as buffing for power)
Duration: 10 mins (poison), 20 mins (Disease)
How do YOU see the Area Cures being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
CM only ability, 2 AoE Packs (1 poison, 1 disease) 3 versions of each pack with increasing power and CM use skill.
Components: ABEC, ALS
Crafter: Doctor for the components, CM for the final combine (same as AoE/Ranged Stim Heal packs)
Resoures: Same as Cure Disease/Poison for Docs plus a metal
Levels: Same as Doctors AoE Cure poisol at level 2 & Disease at level 4 (dunno which CM tree)
Effect: Same as Doctor Cures but at lower effectiveness compared to Doc Cures.
Duration: no needed it's a cure
And finally... Why should WE get any of it over Docs?
CM should get the ranged AoE Cures as it part of the CM speciality, ranged healing. Doctors should get the innoculatons as it is would be considered enhancing a players stats. As for the components being Doctor, same reasoning why the Ranged/AoE Stim require Doctor Components.
vortexala
Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:04 am
#31
A Single-Target Poison/Disease(CM) has a single target counter(Doc). Range isn't an issue here and it's not something CMs nor Docs are looking for, really, and I personally don't think it's something that should be on the table.
Let's just stick with the Area Cures and Innoculations for now
Let's just stick with the Area Cures and Innoculations for now
Chickenbone
Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:44 am
#32
Any kind of poison/disease cures should belong to Doctors. Inoculations could go to the CMs or Docs but I think they should be like stims. Inoculations with varying charges, power, and timer that novice medics could use.
Lexy
Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:25 pm
#33
I'm of the opinion that Mind Heal should be switched to Doctor, and Area Cures and Innoculations given to CM. Here's why:
Doc's are the surgeons. If I had to have mind surgery, I'd want a Brain surgeon working on me, not some field Combat Medic
Also need to give the Docs something in compensation to get CM's Area cures and Innoculations.
Area Cures of course should go to CM. Perhaps require the Cures from doctors as components for the Area Cures, crafted by CMs. Class interdependency.
And as for Innoculations, this is a service related skill, and CM's have no source of income really. Doc and CM's both can craft stuff to make money, but Docs also have a service via Buffs. Give CM's the Innocuations and give them a service skill, making them more a part of the community. Of course it wouldn't last as long as doc buffs, so you'd want the CM with your group to do innoculations right before you go into battle, encouraging their role as a Combat Medic.
Doc's are the surgeons. If I had to have mind surgery, I'd want a Brain surgeon working on me, not some field Combat Medic
Also need to give the Docs something in compensation to get CM's Area cures and Innoculations.Area Cures of course should go to CM. Perhaps require the Cures from doctors as components for the Area Cures, crafted by CMs. Class interdependency.
And as for Innoculations, this is a service related skill, and CM's have no source of income really. Doc and CM's both can craft stuff to make money, but Docs also have a service via Buffs. Give CM's the Innocuations and give them a service skill, making them more a part of the community. Of course it wouldn't last as long as doc buffs, so you'd want the CM with your group to do innoculations right before you go into battle, encouraging their role as a Combat Medic.
Orgin
Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:46 pm
#34
I agree with innoculations for docs and ranged cure poison/diseases for CM. Ranged is the CM profession. Docs are close range. Who cares if evryone else has ranged and docs don't. Thats like choosing between mele and ranged attacks. Docs have alot of abilities just the same as CM's. As far as CM curing CM what can you do. We as docs will still be able to heal poison/disease, just notat a distance and not more then one at a time. This is a great idea nad will help the game out. Dots are getting vewry strong and innoculatins will help that matter out. As far as the length of time goes...maybe we shold look into how long the poisons and diseases last. That should help with the amount of time that these innoculations should last. Just my opinion.
skywalker007l
Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:02 pm
#35
I have to agree with Tenshi here 100%. Curing poison/disease is inherently a doc skill, if anybody should get an AOE cure, that would be a doctor. Though I can understand how CM are unwilling to give the doctors any range, so I actually think there shouldn't be an AOE cure. If innoculations are introduced, this should decrease the amount of people actually being infected, thus making it more reasonable that a doctor or two could heal them all.
TenshiHanaKinu
Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:07 pm
#36
Why do people feel that the AoE pack has to be RANGED?!
O = Doctor
X = players
|<-- 10m / 6m -->|
X
X
X
X
O
X X
X
Doctor uses AoE stim. All players surrounding the Doctor get healed. If you want, make it so the stim can't heal the doctor itself. It doesn't matter, Doctor Cures are so much stronger than CM poisons (even "spider venom") without 'special' components it's almost ridiculous. Until you start pulling out 1200+ tick mind poisons I am not worried there. Even then I can make special components, too.
Why do you guys say "Area = CM". Do you understand what you're saying? You're saying GIVE CMs A DOCTOR SKILL. CM's just toss stuff. They do not have any skills for curing poison or disease. Why are you guys trying to give it to them? There are specific reasons why you go Doctor and specific reasons to go Combat Medic.
I personally did not go Doctor to be a Macroing Buff bot "Applying Enhancement 1 of 6." So, are you saying our only use in Combat should be Reviving now? Well, we healstates.
- Which, by the way, the person who says we're not used on the field? Is that so? STATES are currently one of the biggest things in PvE right now. A lot of Powergamers pick up Doc 4/0/4/0 to be able to heal everything they're hit with. Poison, Disease, and every state.
Indimidate, Stun, Blind, Dizzy... all of that stuff is combat-related. It's all important. /Healstate is a very necessary skill in combat. Especially /healstate dizzy .
---
Combat Medic = Ranged AoE Poison
Doctor = Point Blank AoE Cure Poison
Perfect balance.
Stop trying to reduce us to nothing but a macro'ed profession.
---------
Edit:
But seriously if you want to give them one of our skills, I want to be able to run up to someone and jab a poison needle in their leg or something. /applyPoison single target.
Sounds fair.
Message Edited by TenshiHanaKinu on 07-16-2004 05:10 PM
badgic
Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:08 pm
#37
As a md/cm i dont see the inocs or the area heals as the answer here. Someone did mention a interesting solution tho. Ranged stims that slow the poisons/diseases and give the player time to reach a doc. The cm's will work as something other than poison/disease pitchers and can help combat the other teams cm's. The docs dont have to get into the fray to try and use an area heal with no range. Inocs if used prior to the fight would most likely make the cm,s totally useless during battles. A cm has only one function in pvp (poisons/diseases)and one funtion in pve(ranged stims)as it stands, lets try to find a solution which wont make them totally useless. Keep in mind the pve aspect of inocs also. Inocs would render the weaker poisons/diseases of mobs ineffective.
Obata
Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:19 pm
#38
I think it would be a mistake to introduce BOTH innoculations and AOE cures at the same time. It would be best to do just innoculations (or some mechanism that makes resisting the DOTs a real possibility) and see what that does for balance before putting in any type of AOE cure. The innoculations belong in Master Doctor, IMHO.
I have a problem with giving AOE cure to CMs, because a profession should not be the counter to itself. I also have a problem with giving an AOE effect to docs. If AOE cures have to go in, I would like to see them require skills from both trees. This could be accomplished by having them require the /curepoison or /curedisease command AND giving them a combat medicine use level. This would keep AOE cures in the hands of dedicated healers, and make them rare enough that CMs don't become irrelevant.
OMGStarsiderisdownagain
Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:20 pm
#39
Looking at the posts since my last post make me realize that all the folks who are saying keep /cure Poison&Disease to the doctors only are absolutely right. If we give combat medics that ability we will in effect render ourselves worthless in mass PvP encounters. Well that being said, anything we do really is to "nerf" the combat medic profession. Innoculations and area cures would both be nerfs, but I guess are better than a 75% damage nerf to combat medics which would completely kill the CM profession. Area cures for docs with the same range as stims, but have them with an AoE effect the same size as a CM's poison/disease. In pvp we are going to be right in there with the troops so range won't be that big of a deal. One exploit to this is that a doctor could target themselves and run in circles spamming it... With regards to innoculations give them to docs too, its like a buff so we should get it. I agree now with above posters, make doctors the antithesis of Combat Medics.
Combat medics won't need a nerf to their damage, and they will still own everyone who doesn't have a doctor attached to their buttocks. Combat medics really aren't hard to kill 1 on 1, just fix the stacking of poison/disease so we frigging incap three times after we have already killed the CM and he is sent to the cloner. You wanna fix something, fix that. And fix the bug where if you stack poison/diseas on someone and you db them they get decay too.
Its the large scale PvP where the balance on CM's is out of whack, so doc's should get some measures to counter mass poisoning better.
Anyways keep up the good posts ppl!
Syn Hun'atar MD <CFM>