Doctor Archive

/cries

Didn't we already have this debate before :-/

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riotcontrol wrote:

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Obata wrote:
There are doctors in the military who treat soldiers where they fall. Even in the old model with hospitals behind the lines (like in M*A*S*H), there were still doctors at aid stations right at the front who stabilized the wounded soldiers for their trip to the hospital units. Yes, most doctors are still in relatively safe areas, but not all of them.

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This 'line of work' is currently actually represented in the titles of the Medic profession - Field Stabilizer, First Responder, Emergency Technician...

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The titles may be in medic, but the skills aren't (healstate, revive, cure poison/disease, etc.).

Docs are a combat profession.

I was testing Fencer/Doc yesterday. I went up to the Marauder stronghold. I would have died if I could not heal myself. The ability to SELF HEAL is mondo-strong in combat. The ability to heal others is MONDO STRONG in combat. This ability pushes the envelope of effectiveness.

Secondly, look at the combat map. Doctors are on it. Doctors now get XP on the combat scale. We get armor certs.

If you don't consider support a combat profession, then Squad Leader should not be a combat profession. They are support, right? Right????

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VemaGara wrote:
Docs are a combat profession.

I was testing Fencer/Doc yesterday. I went up to the Marauder stronghold. I would have died if I could not heal myself. The ability to SELF HEAL is mondo-strong in combat. The ability to heal others is MONDO STRONG in combat. This ability pushes the envelope of effectiveness.

Secondly, look at the combat map. Doctors are on it. Doctors now get XP on the combat scale. We get armor certs.

If you don't consider support a combat profession, then Squad Leader should not be a combat profession. They are support, right? Right????

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Um, no.. I wouldn't consider Doctors and SLs similarly.

SL skills directly support the flow of battle. Their skills (swg historically) enhance the performance of the group, degrade enemy effectiveness against the group, or focus the attention of the group. The SL presense acts as a force multiplier for the group. Because of this, you really expect them to be at the forefront of battle.

Doctors work in a way that is entirely defensive in nature. Generally (ignoring the ranged healing line in Medic) they heal individuals, rez individuals, enhance individuals, et cetera. While that activity improves the robustness of the group by making it more hardy in the long run, the activity doesn't multiply over the size of the group. The other capabilities of Doctors are further long-term in nature: enhancers and wound healing (note neither of which Docs get XP for).

I personally think as Doctors as being more supporting in nature.. most effective at enhancing, crafting widgets that they and Combat Medics would use (for healing) and wound healing, with Combat Medics performing the role of offensive and defensive chemistry. If Combat Medic relied on Doctor for some of it's components (along with BE), then a nice set of dependencies could be created.

IMO Combat Medic should be in the stead of Doctors in the combat map.

But, that's just me.

--doogie

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DoogieHozer wrote:

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VemaGara wrote:
Docs are a combat profession.

I was testing Fencer/Doc yesterday. I went up to the Marauder stronghold. I would have died if I could not heal myself. The ability to SELF HEAL is mondo-strong in combat. The ability to heal others is MONDO STRONG in combat. This ability pushes the envelope of effectiveness.

Secondly, look at the combat map. Doctors are on it. Doctors now get XP on the combat scale. We get armor certs.

If you don't consider support a combat profession, then Squad Leader should not be a combat profession. They are support, right? Right????

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Um, no.. I wouldn't consider Doctors and SLs similarly.

SL skills directly support the flow of battle. Their skills (swg historically) enhance the performance of the group, degrade enemy effectiveness against the group, or focus the attention of the group. The SL presense acts as a force multiplier for the group. Because of this, you really expect them to be at the forefront of battle.

Doctors work in a way that is entirely defensive in nature. Generally (ignoring the ranged healing line in Medic) they heal individuals, rez individuals, enhance individuals, et cetera. While that activity improves the robustness of the group by making it more hardy in the long run, the activity doesn't multiply over the size of the group. The other capabilities of Doctors are further long-term in nature: enhancers and wound healing (note neither of which Docs get XP for).

I personally think as Doctors as being more supporting in nature.. most effective at enhancing, crafting widgets that they and Combat Medics would use (for healing) and wound healing, with Combat Medics performing the role of offensive and defensive chemistry. If Combat Medic relied on Doctor for some of it's components (along with BE), then a nice set of dependencies could be created.

IMO Combat Medic should be in the stead of Doctors in the combat map.

But, that's just me.

--doogie

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In a perfect world, yeah, combat medic would be where doctor is. In a more perfect world, combat medic and doctor would be the same profession.

I disagree that doctors don't contribute to the force of a group. Take one squad of five people. Four fire, one heals. Now, if only one member of the group is knocked down, DPS drops to 75% of its former effectiveness. That's a critical debuff. Much past that, and you are looking at a collapse. Preventing debuffs is what a doctor does.

Now, let's put us in the Deathwatch Bunker, where the players are on a timer. One player gets killed. The overall ability of the group has permanently dropped. In this case, the Doc "support profession" is quite critical to making the combat mission a success. The Doc can heal and REVIVE a fallen member, restoring a combat group to full strength. If you only look at DPS and attacking creature lairs, docs are just support. Big deal. If you look at combat missions, and staying full-powered in the field, Docs provide a critical component to the long term combat effectiveness of a group. A SL makes a group MORE effective. A Doc PREVENTS a group from becoming LESS effective. Both have direct results in combat.

If you add a timer into the mix, then Docs become even more critical. Imagine doing the Deathwatch Bunker without a doctor. A doc can heal everyone faster, which allows for a more aggressive push into the bunker, which means accomplishing all tasks with a larger time margin, eliminating more opponents for more loot drops, and increasing the likelihood of crafting your mandalorian armor. That's a mighty big effect for a support profession.

This makes me think that "support" is a misnomer. A combat support profession is still a combat profession. For any combat support profession to matter in combat, the profession must effect combat in a meaningful way. To be a combat profession, one must effect combat in meaningful way. At that point, the difference between support and combatant blurs to meaningless. In a mixed group, each profession brings its own unique abilities to a group that are beneficial to combat. In a group, there is no difference between support and combatant.

Ultimately, Docs are a combat profession because the Devs said that they are. Thus, they are. Thus, all design decisions assume that they are. That's why there are on the combat map. That's why our levels count for health points. That's why our levels count for weapon certs. That's why our abilities are made to counter combat conditions (such as blindness, poison, and such). That's why we get armor certs. That's why we risk aggro for healing. That why crafting abilities were removed from the profession.

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VemaGara wrote:
In a perfect world, yeah, combat medic would be where doctor is. In a more perfect world, combat medic and doctor would be the same profession.

I disagree that doctors don't contribute to the force of a group. Take one squad of five people. Four fire, one heals. Now, if only one member of the group is knocked down, DPS drops to 75% of its former effectiveness. That's a critical debuff. Much past that, and you are looking at a collapse. Preventing debuffs is what a doctor does.

Now, let's put us in the Deathwatch Bunker, where the players are on a timer. One player gets killed. The overall ability of the group has permanently dropped. In this case, the Doc "support profession" is quite critical to making the combat mission a success. The Doc can heal and REVIVE a fallen member, restoring a combat group to full strength. If you only look at DPS and attacking creature lairs, docs are just support. Big deal. If you look at combat missions, and staying full-powered in the field, Docs provide a critical component to the long term combat effectiveness of a group. A SL makes a group MORE effective. A Doc PREVENTS a group from becoming LESS effective. Both have direct results in combat.

If you add a timer into the mix, then Docs become even more critical. Imagine doing the Deathwatch Bunker without a doctor. A doc can heal everyone faster, which allows for a more aggressive push into the bunker, which means accomplishing all tasks with a larger time margin, eliminating more opponents for more loot drops, and increasing the likelihood of crafting your mandalorian armor. That's a mighty big effect for a support profession.
[xxx]
Ultimately, Docs are a combat profession because the Devs said that they are. Thus, they are. Thus, all design decisions assume that they are. That's why there are on the combat map. That's why our levels count for health points. That's why our levels count for weapon certs. That's why our abilities are made to counter combat conditions (such as blindness, poison, and such). That's why we get armor certs. That's why we risk aggro for healing. That why crafting abilities were removed from the profession.

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Ektually, I said:

Doctors work in a way that is entirely defensive in nature. Generally (ignoring the ranged healing line in Medic) they heal individuals, rez individuals, enhance individuals, et cetera. While that activity improves the robustness of the group by making it more hardy in the long run, the activity doesn't multiply over the size of the group. The other capabilities of Doctors are further long-term in nature: enhancers and wound healing (note neither of which Docs get XP for).

..and your examples only support this point. All of your examples point towards a Doctor improving the robustness of the group against death or health loss. In no case, however, does the Doctor's power extend to -increase- the power of a group as an aggregate . He only preserves what is there already. This is completely different from Squad Leader, who uses his abilities to improve the group as an aggregate. Hence if anything, the Doctor's role is more passive to the group damage output and reception, whereas the SL is active.

If we look on the combat map.. sure. Doctors have been declared "combat". So have Combat Medics. One might ask whether it'd be appropriate to suggest to the Devs that Combat Medics assume the Doctor's role in combat (becoming even more like a cleric) and permit Doctor to demote from combat status and retain it's crafting? Does the combat map NEED to have two distinct healing classes, given that forcing groups to retain a Doctor dilutes combat power to a small extent?

In my mind that's a very interesting question.

--doogie

Garvin, I think the definitions, at least as they started, from the Devs were combat and non-combat based on if the character is/should be IN combat, not their actual role once combat was started.

So rather then split combat to combat and combat support, that everyone that brought something useful to the team in a fight was "combat."

Sooooo... a doc helps the group in combat, and is therefore a Combat profession, while AS, or Fizzz mastery doesn't halp anyone defeat a critter so they are non-combat.

That seems to be the way the devs are intending it, indeed it is the line where a lot of stuff is deemed " in the scope of the CU."

-T

If we look on the combat map.. sure. Doctors have been declared "combat". So have Combat Medics. One might ask whether it'd be appropriate to suggest to the Devs that Combat Medics assume the Doctor's role in combat (becoming even more like a cleric) and permit Doctor to demote from combat status and retain it's crafting? Does the combat map NEED to have two distinct healing classes, given that forcing groups to retain a Doctor dilutes combat power to a small extent?

In my mind that's a very interesting question.

--doogie

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I'm afraid I have to agree to disagree on most of that. Well said, though. You bring up good points.

As for synergy, is a rifleman/fencer more powerful than a rifleman/doctor? Neither profession synergizes well. In a mixed group, if the rifleman only uses his rifle, and he never makes use of his second class, does he contribute less than a rifleman/doctor, who maintains long term buffs, rezzes the dead, and switches in and out of offense as needed? Is doc more valuable to a solo player? Is a doc player more valuable to a Jedi, as his XP penalty is mighty big? Is a doc a liablity on a Krayt hunt, as he can't synergize? In what situations is a doc a liability? Is a doc ever a liability in a combat group?

More to think about.

(edit) I guess the real proof is in the pudding: does having a doc in your group make a combat challenge harder or easier, or even possible?

Message Edited by VemaGara on 04-21-2005 08:20 PM