Doctor Archive
Thread: HAM revamp opinions
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Darmaul
Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:34 pm
#14
Hey guys!
I wanted to pop in here and answer some of your questions.
Just to clarify this new HAM System is part of the Combat Balance. As many of you have noted, while this does address many of the core problems in combat it isn't a full solution in and of itself. In the future we will continue to post details about other parts of the Combat Balance here to see what your feedback is and make sure we cover all the primary issues. For now we'd like to keep the discussion focused on the HAM System. Other issues are equally important but it is much easier to process feedback when it is focused.
Now on to the questions.
Wyyne wrote:
As I recall, this was actually on test for a while. I hope that that indicates it can come in pre-JTL. Mind damage complete dominance in pvp is a serious problem and I hope we don't have to wait until after JTL to fix that.
What was on Test a while back was a very quick tweak to the existing system to prototype some of the ideas for this final system. We originally had hopes that the prototype could be used to get us part of the way to this but it turned out not work quite the way we had hoped.
There were two key problems with that test. The first was that using specials still contributed to accelerating your death. Decreasing the maximum HAM value with a quick recovery gave the "feel" that we were looking for but didn't solve the core problem. The other issue was that using multiple specials stacked in a way that caused the regeneration to increase the more you used your specials. This led to a situation where it was even easier and more beneficial to spam abilities instead of timing them to tactical opportunity.
What we did get out of that test was confidence that we were heading in the right direction. So while we couldn't release even a partial solution we were more convinced that this complete new system was needed. Implementing this new system has been no easy task however. Lots of core systems on the server and client needed to be adjusted which requires programming time. Additionally, while this new system lays the foundation for a more balanced combat experience it alone is not sufficient. Lots of further number tweaks and balancing are required to make it all work, but this is the key that gives us a solid starting point.
Sahnd wrote:
So far as needing to take buffs and heals and what not into account first, that's like putting the wagon before the horse. This is a redesign of the basic HAM system, and as such needs to be designed in a vacuum. Once there is a solid design for the HAM system, then can buffs and heals be discussed, as those all affect the HAM system and take that for granted.
Precisely!
It is important to remember that this is not THE solution, it is only the first and fundamental part of the total solution.
BigSteve03 wrote:
I don't understand how this fixes the first problem? Right now I use special moves, my health lowers, and a mob can kill me with fewer hits. With this change, I'd use specials, my total health would decrease the same (just wouldn't be healable) and a mob can kill me with fewer hits.
Actually the key difference is that using specials does not decrease your health, only your health ability pool would decrease. Using special abilities alone could never get you killed and in fact will never increase your risk of being killed by damage. Using your specials will deplete the ability pools which will limit your tactical options which can result in being killed. The key difference being that taking an action will never get you killed, taking a wrong action will. This is fundamental to a fun and exciting tactical combat experience.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
If high numbers will be "so ineffective as to not be worhwhile", then the latter part of your statement ("rewarding, players for pushing the value higher") seem anti-thetical, si?
Great question. This is one of the great dilemmas designers need to deal with all the time when creating game systems. How do we give continued reward for advancing a stat while simultaneously not allowing the number to go so far out of control that the entire system breaks down.
A common system is to give advancements with diminishing returns. This creates a "soft cap" a value where most players feel that advancing any more in a specific area does not give enough of an advantage as to be worth it. The reality is that further advancement does have continued meaning. Different players will stop at different point in their advancement depending on their priorities and what the consider "good enough". Often times players will come back however and continue advancing an area they had previously given up on once they have taken care of their other advancement priorities.
Groovymarlin wrote:
What determines the size of your special ability pool? Is it the same as everyone else's? Can it be buffed? Does it grow or shrink based on the level you are in your profession? Are there racial differences?
Your Health, Action & Mind ability pools will be equal to your Health, Action & Mind stats. The pool size and method in which it works will be nearly identical to how it currently works with a couple critical exceptions.
The ability pool is detached from damage so that you can never "hurt" yourself by using an ability. The ability pool is reduced from taking damage however so your tactical options decrease as you get increasingly injury exactlythe same asitworks now.
The ability pool will regen quickly so while you may deplete the pool rapidly from powerful ability use it will recover quickly allowing you to use further abilities. This will stop immediate successive spamming of special abilities and add a tactical pacing to combat.
Neige wrote:
My question is about the interaction of the new special bar with wounds and damage. what shall be substracted from it ?
1 - nothing, special bar maximum will always be max HA or M
2 - wounds, special bar maximum will be max-wounds
3 - wounds and damage, special bar maximum will be max-wound-damage
3.
Special Ability points will be impacted by damage and wounds. Each ability pool will never be greater than your current damage level. The only difference is that using ability points does not have an affect in the other direction.
LordPIB wrote:
One more thing TH, are the HAM costs of specials going to be balanced? They should have a logical relationship to the amount of damage they do and any other effects they cause.
Absolutely. Part of what makes this change so difficult to do is that we need to evaluate every single special ability and their HAM cost to make sure that they are balanced correctly in this new system. HAM costs of abilities across the board will need to be adjusted to work correctly.
Treguard wrote:
Would this force specials into 'opening volley' slash 'finishing blow' usage only, to make them count?
This definitely will accentuate the value of opening volleys and finishing blows, but combat will not be limited to such. The best combatant will be the one who knows when to use their abilities hard and fast and when to hold back to keep tactical options open.
Skankin wrote:
Am i to assume that with this new system in place, the need for mind healing to be removed would no longer be there. So mind healing would be put back in?
Putting Mind healing back in is critical to restoring the balance of the game. Details on how mind will be healed and by which professions will be discussed in future "In Concepts".
neinnunb wrote:
The inability to spam (which is great!) will produce another problem if you do not revamp buffs in that nobody will be able to do enough damage to kill others.
Correct. Ability damage values as well as how pools are targeted, damaged and healed all need to be looked at. We will be discussing this part of the Combat Balance in more detail in the future.
Astroidea wrote:
If your special move pool is equal to your health/action/mind pools, wouldn't buffs still give you a huge pool to draw from?
Yes, buffs will still play an important part in this new system. It's mostly a question of balance. Buffs which allow you to use the most powerful ability indefinitely and to shrug off the need for heals is too much. Buffs which open new tactical opportunities, alter the pacing of combat or give more breathing room between heals is what we are aiming for.
Cordellbacination wrote:
I for one would not want to see my business that I have worked hard to set up for months destroyed because people are no longer interested in food now that specials dont require HAMs.
This should definitely not happen. We do need to look at the strength and balance of all buff types but buffs will still keep a purpose and value.
Heltain wrote:
Can you please fix the attribute maxima for the different species too ? Because if you choose your race for playability there's no choice but humans which have a maximum of 1100 for every attribute.
Definitely. Species attribute ranges must be looked at and balanced appropriately.
Camrux wrote:
What impact if any will armor have on this new stat pool?
Armor Encumbrance will still have an impact on all attributes. This will mean a reduced pool size for both damage and ability potential as well as a reduced regeneration rate and increased HAM cost for specials. The altering of the drain and regen formulas will potentially reduce the significance of armor encumbrance. Because of this we are reevaluating every aspect of armor to give a more balance benefit to penalty ratio. Look for a future "In Concept" post discussing further details on armor changes.
dementedpoultry wrote:
All told this sounds pretty good. If I understand it though, it doesn't negate the need to balance the special costs for all weapons. For example, while carbineers may no longer be killing themselves by using specials, they will still be at a disadvantage because they'll drain their special attack pool much faster. There needs to be some balance between "spamability" and the amount of damage done with specials (i.e., a spectrum of high spam/low dmg to low spam/high dmg).
We are looking at the functionality and usefulness of every single combat ability. Not only will HAM costs be adjusted but each ability will be evaluated. Some will need to change, duplicate useless abilities may be removed and new abilities may be added. The end result being a diverse set of useful abilities with different strengths and purposes that allow for an exciting, tactical combat experience. Look for a future "In Concept" post to discuss profession roles and abilities.
Ok, that's all I can answer for the first round. I'll be back next week after our office is fully moved to answer more questions concerning this new HAM System.
~ Dave "Keldarin" White ~
SWG Live - Lead Systems Designer
This was posted as a follow up of TH's post. Sounds like a interesting system and that they understand the flaw of the system that was in test center a while back. I just wonder who is going to get the ablity to heal mind out in the field. With some tweaks could be interetesting.
Cypher71
Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:36 am
#16
Dragonian
While your idea is an interesting one, I would have to disagree. Being a master doctor in this game takes ALOT of skill points. We don't have the ability to def stack like the combat specialist are able to. When we go fight, our biggest saving grace is being able to heal in the heat of battle. Now if the devs want to look at giving doctors defensive combat skills like dodge or hightened toughness, or something along those lines that make up for the doctors weakness in combat, I say ok, that's fair.
I also played Asheron's call, and left the game after my level 83 mage was still relatively useless in many situations (failing to dmg the target really got on my nerves). That's why I stopped playing Asheron's Call. Not only did you have a chance to fail the casting, but also the landing can be resisted. No other profession had 2 ways of failing an attack.
Unless you start making it so weapons can jam, befumbled or dropped, and fairly do that to every single profession in this game, you can't really expect it to happen to doctors. We can heal, that's our saving grace, be it in PvE or PvP, it's what we do, why cripple that?
Angle
Harbinger of Death, Gifter of Life
Roustabout
Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:45 am
#17
Darmaul wrote:
Astroidea wrote:
If your special move pool is equal to your health/action/mind pools, wouldn't buffs still give you a huge pool to draw from?
Yes, buffs will still play an important part in this new system. It's mostly a question of balance. Buffs which allow you to use the most powerful ability indefinitely and to shrug off the need for heals is too much. Buffs which open new tactical opportunities, alter the pacing of combat or give more breathing room between heals is what we are aiming for.
Well they do seem to be taking into account the fact that buffs SHOULD let you access areas that a normal player cannot access. This sounds like it might be in the range of a 25% reduction or so...which, honestly, wouldn't be that bad I suppose...as long as they are still worthwhile -- but don't have to be overpowering. If nothing else I'm glad to see that it looks like everyone's concerns are really being looked at and examined instead of just putting a band-aid on a broken leg.
Dragonian
Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:32 am
#18
Cypher71 wrote:DragonianWhile your idea is an interesting one, I would have to disagree. Being a master doctor in this game takes ALOT of skill points. We don't have the ability to def stack like the combat specialist are able to. When we go fight, our biggest saving grace is being able to heal in the heat of battle. Now if the devs want to look at giving doctors defensive combat skills like dodge or hightened toughness, or something along those lines that make up for the doctors weakness in combat, I say ok, that's fair.I also played Asheron's call, and left the game after my level 83 mage was still relatively useless in many situations (failing to dmg the target really got on my nerves). That's why I stopped playing Asheron's Call. Not only did you have a chance to fail the casting, but also the landing can be resisted. No other profession had 2 ways of failing an attack.Unless you start making it so weapons can jam, be fumbled or dropped, and fairly do that to every single profession in this game, you can't really expect it to happen to doctors. We can heal, that's our saving grace, be it in PvE or PvP, it's what we do, why cripple that?AngleHarbinger of Death, Gifter of Life
You have a point there. But I wasn't infering that there should be a double chance of failure as there is with mages. Btw, that double whammy only effected war spells and debuffs, not heals you cast on yourself or team mates.
But you bring up something else I forgot. The idea of a 'fizzling' a heal only worked by comparing the medics Med Useage against the opponent mobs. I forgot about a medic healing a team mate. Since the /assist command can determine who your team mate is fighting, then it shouldn't be hard to compare the aggro'd mobs level against the medics Med Usage. Though, if the medic isn't himself aggro'd, then he should get a bonus modifier since he doesn't have to worry about defending himself at the time.
The idea is to discourage novice medics with hyped up stim-b's. Just about every template includes novice medic because of this. The dev's would have to nerf stim-b's by about half to begin a shift away from this. This idea would make novice medic fine at the lower levels but as the mob difficulty increased and your med useage didn't (because you had no intention of going beyond novice medic) then having just novice medic would have diminishing returns. You'd still be guarenteed a heal out of combat, but in the heat of battle it would become more and more difficult. This would be akin to having novice entertainer to heal your own battle fatigue. At low levels it would work, but at high levels it would take too long to be worth keeping, thus dimishing returns.
The idea is to encourage players to continue on up the medic tree if they keep it at all. The idea is to encourage but not require groups at the higher levels. With buffs a player can still solo a lot of content with the ability to heal themselves. A group having a Master Medic, MD, or CM would be a boon.
The idea isn't to gimp Master Doctors, but encourge them. With a med usage of 100, an MD should be able to heal team mates most all of the time against even the toughest of mobs.
Edit: stupid grammer
Message Edited by Dragonian on 07-26-2004 09:37 AM
Eraint
Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:18 am
#19
I just want some way to heal the mind. Every time I have been incapped it has been through the mind. Even unarmored, I always take it in the head.
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