Doctor Archive
Thread: Arguments and Comment for New Enhaced Vote
vortex4 wrote:
Losing the ability to buff for 2800 points with a base 875 enhance pack is most definitely a nerf...
...Basing assumptions only on the existing variances, I have to infer that a static value would end up somewhere near the middle. Perhaps ~1700 for the aforementioned D pack. Not only is this unacceptably low, but now every player will always be buffed by the same amount.....
Sure, losing the ability to buff for 2800 with 875 base is nurf, but do you get that every single time? or consistantly? or even 25% of the time?
How about if we turn that around? could we just as easily say this is HUGE love for doctor since we no longer get 600 buff on 875 base?
And I find it interesting that you seem to think that Average is 1700, when you seem to be getting consistant 2800. That is 1100 difference from 1700. Does that mean you also consistantly get 600? And you find it acceptable?while guaranteed 1700 is not?
very interesing indeed.
The variability is too high to deliver a consistent service. #1 is the best option available. The ideal solution is to drop the variation to +/- 10% with Master buffs noticeably better than anyone else's (with the same packs).
I get enough 2800's to be satisfied.
If I don't like that 900 low buff, I can always try again. It's my decision to live with it or not. A static value affords no such options. You're simply stuck with it.
vortex4 wrote:
Negative llyaMasool. That is a flawed analogy.
Choice one would would be to always get one scoop of ice cream, whenever you wanted it, but never more than one, and you can't have seconds.
Choice two would be to get 1-3 scoops of ice cream, whenever you wanted them, and if you wanted more, you could throw your cup away and place another order.
See, now we KNOW you don't understand.
Your analogy is better than mine for sure, I give you that, but the choice is
1) ALWAYS get two scoop of ice cream
2) get 1 - 3 scoops of ice cream. And if you want to try again, you have to EAT the first serving, puke it out, and try it again. (Reason for this is simple. You buff 6 stats. Given variance. If your first 5 are 1 okay and 4 great, and 6th is really crummy, then you gotta start all over again. And you use up your enhanced packs everytime. And I don't know about you but making them 875 base packs are not the easiest.)
vortex4 wrote:
I get enough 2800's to be satisfied.
If I don't like that 900 low buff, I can always try again. It's my decision to live with it or not. A static value affords no such options. You're simply stuck with it.
I am not even sure why I am arguing here. It is NOT that I have really strong feeling one way or another.
I am willing to accept #2 just as easily since it means I can continue to be lazy.
I don't know why so many of you seem to say everyone will get same mediocre buffs.
There are wide range of Enhanced D's out there.
Some are on 900 range with advanced components and great resource, while other are 400ish range made with ho-hum stuff.
If they were to go with option 1, then price of enhanced pack will most DEFINATELY determind by the base buff.
You can probably sell your 900ish range buff pack for 2-3 times the price of 400ish range sinceif you use 900ishenhance buff, you ALWAYS buff for 1900ish, while if youuse 400 range ones, you ALWAYS buff for 900ish.
When you see people with buffs, you will KNOW someone got a good buff because the doctor who buffed him used a good pack, not because that doctor was just lucky.
I see so many doctors here who post "what is best enhanced base you made" kind of thread and I always wondered "so what? whats the point?"
Right now, it is 10% your enhanced pack and 90% your luck.
Option 1 means in the future, it will always be 100% your enhanced pack.
vortex4 wrote:
Negative llyaMasool. That is a flawed analogy.
Choice one would would be to always get one scoop of ice cream, whenever you wanted it, but never more than one, and you can't have seconds.
Choice two would be to get 1-3 scoops of ice cream, whenever you wanted them, and if you wanted more, you could throw your cup away and place another order.
Yeah, I can see I must not have made myself clear. As stated your analogy is wrong about what we are talking about.
As mentioned above. Choice 2 is 2 scoops of ice cream, not 1.
Choice 2 is 1-3 scoops.
THe whole thowing away thing applies to both options. (Assuming you mean death as teh option to "throw away" here) There will be no change to the utter inability to simply overwrite or dump a bad buff.
In the first base the buff is always the same. But no dumping it without death.
In the second case the buff varies just as it does now, and no dumping it without death just as it is now.
Is that any clearer? That is what I mean by the formula being a known factor. If you know you are always getting between 1 and 3 scoops of ice cream, then you know that if this changed you would always get 2 scoops. It's the exact midline.
So as I said before, if you REALLY want to know what you buffs would look like with this change, just buff with the same power packs some number of times in the same conditions, the divide the totall buffing values by the number of buffs you gave. That should give you a decent idea of your actual midrange as it stands now. You may THINK you are getting a lot more of those 2700 buffs than you are the 600 buffs, but if that is true, it's a statistical anomoly. The average is simply the average. You skill and the base power of teh buff provide the midline that is varied from by some currently unknown percentage.
So if you LIKE big buffs, but also don't mind getting the same amount of really garbage buffs, then #2 is the option fo you. But would #1 really be so bad, let alone "stupid"?
I mean, you're getting the same average no matter how you look at it. It's 6 of one, and one-half dozen of the other.
Besides, this vote won't stop me from pushing for the reduced variability option that folks seem to prefer anyways. ALthough you might see that option as "stupid" too, because that is like chaning option 1 to look like option 2, but with a range of 1-1/2-2/12 scoops of ice cream.
Here is some meaty data for you.
I tested the following, first as a Master Doc (+100 Wound Treatment), then sold Master Doc for 4-4-4-4 Doc (+75 Wound Treatment). I then manually readjusted the values to compensate for the 110 med droid. Applied to myself, willing test subjects, and my pet Durni
First the baseline:
Enhance Health D - 694 base
Enhance Constitution C - 197 base
110 Med Droid
20 uses of each type for each skill level (80 total results).
Type Min Max Average
MD Health-D 735 2067 1352
Doc Health-D 619 17251247
MD Con-C 208 571 373
Doc Con-C 175 510 349
As a percentage Min Max Average
MD Health-D 106%298% 195%
Doc Health-D 89% 248% 180%
MD Con-C 106% 290% 189%
Doc Con-C 89% 259% 177%
Some other nice notes
- both packs at all skill levels require the same mind cost per use
- As a 4-4-4-4 Doc, I buffed at minimum 89% of the pack level for both the Health and Con packs. Lesser docs may be able to buff even lower than the baseline.
- As an MD, I buffed at minimum 106% of the baseline.
- The minimum difference between the two was consistent for both tests at 19%, despite the +25 wound treatment difference
- The max for a MD is probably 300% of the pack's base value
- The max for a +75 Doc is probably 260%
- The average for a Master Doc is probably around 195% of the base value. For these packs, that would mean a 1350 point heal for the Health and 380 heal for the crappy Con pack.
Anyway, this is some food for thought. Would be great to match this up with the skills of a lower doc, but I'm not going to sell back that many skill points to check it out.
One thing is missing here though:
Buffing for 3000 on a secondary stat is near pointless. Even a 1000 point buff has for me generally negated special cost / need to recover, in anything but damage. With some of the highest and most costly specials this may be slightly different, but it probably holds true.
So even if it does get nerfed, the only real nerf is to the ability to buff health and action, and considering that those are not usually the determining factor in a fight at the moment, mind is, im not to terribly worried about what they do to buffs.
LuellaLokidottir Posted
" 2.
It seems to me that by voting 1, you are asking to take out the effort of experimentation."
Isn't that opposite?
Right now, it doesn't matter if you experiment your Enhanced D to 800 base from 500 base. With the variation you can get 2500 with 500 base and 1100 with 500 base.
It also doesn't really matter if you use advanced sub-components or really great avian meat. it is gamble either way and you take your chance.
If buffs are always same, then if put efforts into your enhanced D, you use advanced componenets, Use best Avian meat you can find, and you get your base to 900ish, then you will ALWAYS buff for 2000ish where as if you don't really put much effort into your enhanced D, use crummy sub-components and lousy avian so your base is 400, then you will always buff for 900ish.
If you use advanced components, you will ALWAYS buff for more than those who make their buff pack with regular sub-component.
And if you use better avian meat, you will ALWAYS buff for more than those who use regular avian meat.
I guess #1 mean you get your reward if you care about what you craft.
Not much else we know about the two choice we are given, but this much we do.
Well, actually we know all about choice #2. It's what we have now.
Choice #1 has a certain amount of the unkown quantity to it only because we haven't had folks do enough experimentation on their own to discover what the formula is that determines buff range. If we knew that formula we could, likely, figure out exactly what out buffs would look like if the vearibility were removed from it completely. For now your best bet would be to buff a bunch of times with same stat packs and figure out the average as best you can. Then you'd know pretty much what you would be buffing for is such s achange went through.
Personally I like the idea of some variability, but we are not given that option, at least not at this time. Overall, though, because there is such a massive overlap Ilya has a very good point that one any given person on any given day it is possible for a lower level medic with worse buff packs than me to actually buff better than me at any given time. I think that does, in fact, lessen the value of being a Master Medic because it is harder to see the direct impact your Wound Treatment skill is having on your buffs. In this respect I decided, finally, to vote #1 on that thread. At least I wwould know, then, that as a Master Doc, making sure I have a 110 med module droid and makeing sure I use the best resources and components that my buffs will always payoff better than a lesser buff and/or Doc will.
Here is some meaty data for you.
This is consistent with the experiment I ran. It very much appears that the current formula is something in the neighborhood of 1x to 3x base, with a linear distribution (so the average is 2x base) with the end result affected by wound treatment skill and medicul module rating of your droid (or med center).
So I think we are talking about the difference (at master doc) of switching from 1.1x to 3.3x base buffs (since most of us have good droids) to 2.2x base buffs.
Marzuk147 wrote:
One thing is missing here though:
Buffing for 3000 on a secondary stat is near pointless. Even a 1000 point buff has for me generally negated special cost / need to recover, in anything but damage. With some of the highest and most costly specials this may be slightly different, but it probably holds true.
I cenrtainly hope this is not true.
The Doctor buff are supposed to be other half of Chef buff, and once they start fixing food & drink scheme, it would be easy for chef to buff any one stat for 8-16k (although I doubt anyone would want to buff just 1 stat). Assuming chef spread their buff out, that is about 1k-2k on each stat while we pick up another 2k, so I think secondary buff should give significant and noticeable difference upto 6k atleast.
anyway it seems like most of you who are voting are not all that thrilled with the choices given.
Can't blame ya. I'm not all that thrilled myself.
It seems kinda lame (you though I was gonna say "slap in the face (tm)" didn't ya?) to give us two option. One which Coder don't have to do no work. And second one which they had to do as little as possible.
I know they are upto their neck with work but can't help but feeling we are given left-over second hand attention.
Anyhoo, IF you had your choice, what would it been?
Personally I would have taken modified option 1. Fixed Buff where it is determind by how well you made your enhanced pack.
But here is twist. I want Enhanced E pack
WITH OPTIONAL Component!!! which we can get from nest and/or BE
With rare drop or well made BE optional component, Advanced Enhanced E should have base of 2k max and buff for constant 4k(assuming you are master doctor) where as if your Enhanced E is made from whatever junk you had left over, you;d have base of 500ish and buff for 1000.
Anyway thats what I REALLY want