Doctor Archive
Thread: TEF change implications for buffers
DoctorGriggs wrote:
Question I guess is this so bad?
What is a side effect of letting anyone buff anyone else? The way I see it it could benefit PvP since the docs won't keep getting ganked.
What do you guys think?
I think it is a non-issue.
Look at what happens to day.
1. Everyone goes to the battle buffed.
2. Only person who needs to be buffed is someone who has died. 70% of them were covert and useing TEF and thus upon being rezed or cloned are no longer TEFed. As a result they could be buffed by anyone and not give a TEF.
3. Those that are overt when they die it will depend on which side they are on. Since there is no advantage to getting rezed if your defendingthen they are getting buffed in the PC cloner anyway so they can not be attacked (doc and buffie).
4. So this leaves only the Overt Attacking players that will get a bonus by being able to get buffed by a civilian (non-PvP enabled). However, since the civilian can not rez (I assume rez falls under heal) then another doc will have to rez the person and then have the buffer do the buffing. Not a great advantage IMO.
I suggest that the compromize be that they can not be buffed while they are in the groggy post rez phase. This means that by the time the PvP enabled player could get a buff they could also be attacked. So the result would be that a rezed player would try to find a safe spot to get buffed. This would prevent abuse of a doc just running around free in a battle. Sure there is no risk to the doc but the PvP enable palyer is not gonna want to stick around in the thick of it.
TEFS were removed from buffing, trading etc...
HEALING will not be allowed on PVP players by neutrals (civvies).
Buffing is a HEALING action. (Uses woundheal skill).
You do the math.
I am willing to 4500000000 cr. the above is the way it will be.
Devs write like programmers.. Hell half of the Doc Patchnotes read "Medic: ... somthing something...
There is nothing stopping anyone from buffing them before they go PVP + though.
Buffing has always followed healing restrictions in SWG (for PVP etc.) and has always been treated as a healing action by the engine. I doubt they will stop now.
-T
Message Edited by Traigus on 02-05-2005 10:43 AM
Traigus wrote:
Read it again, and think like a programmer.
TEFS were removed from buffing, trading etc...
HEALING will not be allowed on PVP players by neutrals (civvies).
Buffing is a HEALING action. (Uses woundheal skill).
You do the math.
I am willing to 4500000000 cr. the above is the way it will be.
Devs write like programmers.. Hell half of the Doc Patchnotes read "Medic: ... somthing something...
There is nothing stopping anyone from buffing them before they go PVP + though.
Buffing has always followed healing restrictions in SWG (for PVP etc.) and has always been treated as a healing action by the engine. I doubt they will stop now.
-T
Message Edited by Traigus on 02-05-2005 10:43 AM
Traigus wrote:
Read it again, and think like a programmer.
TEFS were removed from buffing, trading etc...
HEALING will not be allowed on PVP players by neutrals (civvies).
Buffing is a HEALING action. (Uses woundheal skill).
You do the math.
I am willing to 4500000000 cr. the above is the way it will be.
Devs write like programmers.. Hell half of the Doc Patchnotes read "Medic: ... somthing something...
There is nothing stopping anyone from buffing them before they go PVP + though.
Buffing has always followed healing restrictions in SWG (for PVP etc.) and has always been treated as a healing action by the engine. I doubt they will stop now.
-TMessage Edited by Traigus on 02-05-2005 10:43 AM
I agree with you but as Obata says in the post right below yours it looks like buffing has been taken off of the wound treatment timer now.
I would test it out on TC but I have not leveled up my character there enough
DoctorGriggs wrote:
I agree with you but as Obata says in the post right below yours it looks like buffing has been taken off of the wound treatment timer now.
I would test it out on TC but I have not leveled up my character there enough
Traigus wrote:
If they are spending coding time to separate them, then I'd expect some serious changes to how it all works. It is not worth programmer time for minor changes.
I've always been for separating buffs from wounds, makes stuff easier to balance.
-T
Serious changes, like along the lines of getting rid of TEFs and letting overts of each faction buff each other? I think the separation was most likely coded in to facilitate the faction changes. I don't mind the separation either, though I'm somewhat disturbed by the rules that do not restrict who can be buffed by whom.
Obata wrote:
Traigus wrote:
If they are spending coding time to separate them, then I'd expect some serious changes to how it all works. It is not worth programmer time for minor changes.
I've always been for separating buffs from wounds, makes stuff easier to balance.
-T
Serious changes, like along the lines of getting rid of TEFs and letting overts of each faction buff each other? I think the separation was most likely coded in to facilitate the faction changes. I don't mind the separation either, though I'm somewhat disturbed by the rules that do not restrict who can be buffed by whom.
Once they are separated, the exact endpoint can always be discussed.
That's why we have Texxie. We Sic Texxie on people until they cry and give in.
Seriously though, there is no way it'll end up live with no restrictions. Something like that will be abused so fast, they'll have no choice but to limit it. Without TEFS, whatever the final lists are will be much easier to balance and change. TEFs were a huge tangles nightmare of "maybe" type answers attached to an action.
Since Faction can be turned on and off, the devs always have the option to make something illegal now. The default state of PVE allows all PVP people to get what they need if the devs have to clamp down on the rules because of fairness. PVP+ can always become PVE, if only for a short time.
It is really jsut passing the onus of risk/inconvenience from the PVE peopel (where it was with TEFS, with possible ganking) to the PVP crowd (who will lose soem time waiting for switch timers to allow them to switch back.
The GCW needs a huge hammering on, outside of TEFs It is a big mess of cheats, exploits, and unintended effects. Until he 700 base exploits get wrapped up, who buffs whom is actually pretty minor. We also have no idea what buffs will be like after the CU ( I have no idea really). I would suspect they would be balanced down as they finally get all the weapons etc. in some kind of rational order.
The important of this problem is directly proportional to the power of buffs after the CU. If buffs are good to have after the CU (as opposed to being mandatory for walking outside you house... like right now), then there is not much importance on how/who/when you get them. If they stay uber and mandatory (like now) how/who when becomes critical to survival in PVP.
I for one, am hoping for all of combat to be balanced in a way that does not make evereything manadatory, but rather, an advantage to have.
For example: I often Use Buff B packs (non-super crafted) in my everyday adventuring. They are just enough to do what I need to get done. I COULD do what I need to do with no buffs at all, but the B's make my life easier. D's are massive overkill for pretty much everything. Very Well crafted Ds are beyond insane still... even after variables taken out on buffing.
I'd pay for B buffs... but there is no point, because Ds are readily available and make me godlike.
B buffs in PVP are not a huge deal, they can be overcome by good gear, or smart special usage ( an a base level... no armor.. especially excuding uber composite.. I won't go there). If B buffs were te market.. then who passed them out, and who could get them would be a minor issue.
Righ now, with massive D buffs... Everyone MUST have powerful D buffs to think about PVP, with such a huge power gap between the buffed and unbuffed, it is a game breaking choice to decide who can and cannot get buffs baced on PVP flags.
I for one, hope that the overall plan (even if enacted in chunks) will be linked is such a way that changing one feature will bring about a balanceable change in al lte connected features as well.
Yes, I am for Nerfing the hell out of buffs. I always have been. They are so out of balance it isn't funny. With lower buffs... this question is pretty minor.
Then again, the only person that gets listened to less then me (by anyone) is MNS... People even take Texxie more seriously then me :/
-T
This was done back with FS. Notice that the FS healing tree does not speed up buffing but does wound healing.
Obata wrote:
Traigus wrote:
Read it again, and think like a programmer.
TEFS were removed from buffing, trading etc...
HEALING will not be allowed on PVP players by neutrals (civvies).
Buffing is a HEALING action. (Uses woundheal skill).
You do the math.
I am willing to 4500000000 cr. the above is the way it will be.
Devs write like programmers.. Hell half of the Doc Patchnotes read "Medic: ... somthing something...
There is nothing stopping anyone from buffing them before they go PVP + though.
Buffing has always followed healing restrictions in SWG (for PVP etc.) and has always been treated as a healing action by the engine. I doubt they will stop now.
-T
Message Edited by Traigus on 02-05-2005 10:43 AM
There is evidence that they have already made a distinction between buffing and wound healing though. The new wound healing timer, currently on TC, does not affect buffing speed.
Traigus wrote:
Once they are separated, the exact endpoint can always be discussed.
That's why we have Texxie. We Sic Texxie on people until they cry and give in.
That's what i'm here for
[snip]
It is really jsut passing the onus of risk/inconvenience from the PVE peopel (where it was with TEFS, with possible ganking) to the PVP crowd (who will lose soem time waiting for switch timers to allow them to switch back.
That's where the onus should be anyway, really.
[snip]
The important of this problem is directly proportional to the power of buffs after the CU. If buffs are good to have after the CU (as opposed to being mandatory for walking outside you house... like right now), then there is not much importance on how/who/when you get them. If they stay uber and mandatory (like now) how/who when becomes critical to survival in PVP.
Regardless of how powerful the buff is in the end, it will STILL be mandatory for a PvPer. Any advantage, regardless of it's overall power, will be mandatory. Especially one with no drawbacks such as Doctor Enhancements.
[snip]
Yes, I am for Nerfing the hell out of buffs. I always have been. They are so out of balance it isn't funny. With lower buffs... this question is pretty minor.
I'm not for nerfing buffs, I'm for balancing them.
And even though you may see it as a minor question in the grand scheme of things, it should still be addressed now since this is when it's going in. Might as well do the work now instead of waiting forever...
Then again, the only person that gets listened to less then me (by anyone) is MNS... People even take Texxie more seriously then me :/
They take me seriously because I will be relentless about something until it gets fixed. Plus I'm more forward about things whereas you take the whole 'eloquence' route. That just ain't me
I've always been for separating buffs from wounds, makes stuff easier to balance.
-T
BUT, I am talking about rebel vs. imperial! Civilians should be able to help/heal/buff overts!
Message Edited by Jittaba on 02-05-2005 12:50 PM