Doctor Archive

Thread: Relationship Buffs/Armor source of the problem

GuardianHawk
Wed May 05, 2004 9:18 am
#1

I would like everyone and mostly the developers to think about this for a minute while considering what should be done about buffs and combat balance.


I believe the key to the problem comes from the encumberance of armor.


First, an unbuffed person even has trouble putting armor on. They just don't have high enough HAMs in many cases. So in other words the encumb is a huge issue for any unbuffed player. Even if they can get it on the hit they take to the HAM is so large they can hardly fight at all with it on.


Second, when a person gets buffed the encumber is insignificant. It doesn't matter in the least!


The thing is that encumb should be scaled to a person's HAM buff or no buff. That way people not buffed can get the stuff on and still be somewhat effective even without a buff.


Also the hit must be much greater to people that are buffed up as they arealmost unstoppable. This is not the fault of the buff or the armor. It is the combination of them.


I believe,


THE SOLUTION is in scaling the hit that armor puts on HAMs to the size of the HAM. And take a bigger hit to the secondaries (mostly regenerating abilities). This would help everyone all around. It takes a notch out of the uber armor/buffies and doesn't kill doctors. It makes armor more useful on the low end but still has serious advantages on the high end as well.


So Doctors, I encourage you to think over this concept and add your thoughts, flames, or support. I have my fire blanket around here somewhere.



Hawkeye'
Guardians of Light
Bringing Honor to Online Gaming
www.Guardians-of-Light.com
Rchuno
Wed May 05, 2004 9:40 am
#2

he he yeah this has been brought up on our main page already. I would say that just the armor alone is the biggest problem. 90% resists is too high in my opinion. Thinking about it if armor was dropped down to 70% max it would eliminate many problems in combat. Sure it would be more dificult but would give people less to complain about as well. 70% is still high but at leaste somone can be taken out with at this level. PvE would still be easy. I can tank a Krayt in my wookiee armor already and that is no where near 70% resists. But 70% with mitigation is still going to be a good deal better than nothing. At 90% people start to hit the "I can almost regen as fast as I get hit" point. But at 70% they have to watch themselves.



****************************
* Niccaurra {} Master DOC / Aspiring Merchant
*Niqe {DRUNK} TKM/Pist
****************************
SioBabble
Wed May 05, 2004 9:53 am
#3

I agree that the the buff/armor relationship is a synergy, and that we're seeing some consequences of that. Armor encumbrance is trivial if you're sporting enhance-D buffs. It means that the tradeoff that is supposed to happen in combat when you wear armor is not happening.


My guild armorsmith prepared composite armor suits for the PA's assault on the Corvette, and because we've go ta master doctor who routinely buffs us 2200 points on all six stats, he ignored encumbrance issues when crafting the armor. Likewise, our master smuggler went for effectiveness slices when he took his turn at the armor. If you're fully buffed, encumbrance is simply not an issue.


This has created some serious anomalies, one of which is to make CMs seem to be far more powerful than any other damage dealing profession, when the thing is that CMs are powerful because they can get past the armor, which other proffs have problems doing. The Geo stun weapons likewise are seen as very powerful because they get past composite in a way that other attacks cannot.






Tazz vonMannstein Baron-Administrator of Corellia, master navigator of Corellia, captain of the Gregarious Gurreck

Sio Babble MBH/MCH/Cabana Boy; master of Tyson, the GNORT OF DEATH

Jeffn Akbar Nerfed from here to Lok MD/MCM

Zanti Agaesia Bothan MBE, 12 point Master Chef, Havoc Squadron Ace pilot


Aggressive
Wed May 05, 2004 10:47 am
#4

Why not simply have the encumberance work as a percentage of the HAM, instead of a fixed number? That way, buffed players would still feel the effects of the armor. The buff would still end up being beneficial, however, because the stat (minus the encumberance percentage) would probably still be higher than the unbuffed HAM of the player.



________________________________________________________

**Never hold your farts in. They travel up your spine, into your brain, and that is where Sh*tty thoughts come from**

Valcyn: Aggalina vF - Master Combat Medic, some Dancer (among other things)
Sunrunner: Lyrra Lydell - Master Architect, Artisan & Scout
SioBabble
Wed May 05, 2004 11:29 am
#5






Aggressive wrote:

Why not simply have the encumberance work as a percentage of the HAM, instead of a fixed number? That way, buffed players would still feel the effects of the armor. The buff would still end up being beneficial, however, because the stat (minus the encumberance percentage) would probably still be higher than the unbuffed HAM of the player.







Even as a percentage, the discrepancies in terms of raw numbers would still be there, UNLESS you also turn the special HAM costs into a percentage. Rumor has it that the devs realize that specials spamming is one of the imbalance issues and that this aspect of combat may be dealt with.


What the encumbrance is supposed to do is make you give up offensive potential for a defensive benefit. This is not happening under the current system. Even after you adjust the encumbrance cost, you're left with a lot more HAM to play with in terms of spamming specials.


Furthermore, the other problem, that of attacks that composite is vulnerable to appearing to be overpowering will remain with us. There will still be whines of 'nerf' from those who want this to be a MMFPS, not a MMORPG, and can't stand the fact that a "carebear" is pwning their min/max butts.





Tazz vonMannstein Baron-Administrator of Corellia, master navigator of Corellia, captain of the Gregarious Gurreck

Sio Babble MBH/MCH/Cabana Boy; master of Tyson, the GNORT OF DEATH

Jeffn Akbar Nerfed from here to Lok MD/MCM

Zanti Agaesia Bothan MBE, 12 point Master Chef, Havoc Squadron Ace pilot


LordOfFatness
Wed May 05, 2004 11:36 am
#6






SioBabble wrote:





Aggressive wrote:

Why not simply have the encumberance work as a percentage of the HAM, instead of a fixed number? That way, buffed players would still feel the effects of the armor. The buff would still end up being beneficial, however, because the stat (minus the encumberance percentage) would probably still be higher than the unbuffed HAM of the player.







Even as a percentage, the discrepancies in terms of raw numbers would still be there, UNLESS you also turn the special HAM costs into a percentage. Rumor has it that the devs realize that specials spamming is one of the imbalance issues and that this aspect of combat may be dealt with.


What the encumbrance is supposed to do is make you give up offensive potential for a defensive benefit. This is not happening under the current system. Even after you adjust the encumbrance cost, you're left with a lot more HAM to play with in terms of spamming specials.


Furthermore, the other problem, that of attacks that composite is vulnerable to appearing to be overpowering will remain with us. There will still be whines of 'nerf' from those who want this to be a MMFPS, not a MMORPG, and can't stand the fact that a "carebear" is pwning their min/max butts.






There does have to be a benefit to buffs though. If you made special moves costa percentage, then buffs become pointless. The problem right now is that your pools regen most of the time before you get hit again. Also, because of the strength and quickness buffs, the cost of special moves is negligible.


If the encumberance took a percentage off of your secondaries, buffs would still help, but they wouldn't be uber. Your pools wouldn't regen as fast and your specials would cost more (i.e. you might actually take damage). Right now, I rarely even have to use a stimpack.

I'm ok with them reducing the power of buffs somewhat, but you can not make a special move take a percentage of your pools.

Akaya
Wed May 05, 2004 11:40 am
#7

I guess we will need to wait and see how much they ruin the game with this combat rebalance.



-Nakaya-

-Master Doctor-
-Master Swordsman-
Happymob
Wed May 05, 2004 1:10 pm
#8






Aggressive wrote:

Why not simply have the encumberance work as a percentage of the HAM, instead of a fixed number? That way, buffed players would still feel the effects of the armor. The buff would still end up being beneficial, however, because the stat (minus the encumberance percentage) would probably still be higher than the unbuffed HAM of the player.







I think this is the best answer. A secondary buff would then benefit the unarmored the most, but it would still benefit the heavily armored. The heavily armored would not be able to spam specials though.


An interesting consequence of this would be that the lighter armor types would become useful again in many situations for those that wanted to retain maximum offense (aka spamming) while adding a bit of defense. The "tanks" would wear the stun composite, but give up a lot of offense.




Imadoh and Ikiecobi
Quality Resources and the Corellia Butcher - NoCo
NoCo Trade Center, Corellia (just northeast of Coronet) 796, -3076


GuardianHawk
Wed May 05, 2004 1:50 pm
#9






Happymob wrote:


I think this is the best answer. A secondary buff would then benefit the unarmored the most, but it would still benefit the heavily armored. The heavily armored would not be able to spam specials though.


An interesting consequence of this would be that the lighter armor types would become useful again in many situations for those that wanted to retain maximum offense (aka spamming) while adding a bit of defense. The "tanks" would wear the stun composite, but give up a lot of offense.







Ahh, finnaly someone is seeing the light. I really hope that the developers look at this as a very useful way to address the combat re-balance.


This idea would work with so many interactions to make them work better together. Everything from buffs to armor to special attacks, to armor types, to different combat types etc. This idea really hits the mark in so many ways. It even helps balance the melee fighters vs the ranged fighters in how much armor they want to wear vs how much offensive power they want.





Hawkeye'
Guardians of Light
Bringing Honor to Online Gaming
www.Guardians-of-Light.com
Lucreel
Wed May 05, 2004 5:33 pm
#10

Slightly off-topic, but as to the issue of CM attacks being 'overpowered' because they get past the armor - how about a special type of armor that gives less kinetic protection, but gives some resistance to chem/bio attacks? I mean, come on - in real life we have bio-hazard suits, and have for quite a long time. *Certainly* the Star Wars universe should have something a bit more. . . advanced. . . than what 20th century Earth had. Note that this wouldn't give you complete immunity to CM attacks - just some reduction in the effectiveness of the disease/poison.
mr2tran
Wed May 05, 2004 6:35 pm
#11

I totally agree with you, I had actually posted the same idea in the GCW forum and no one replied to it.


I agree that armour penalty should be a percentage of the secondary ham's stats.

For example if your wearing a 79% base composite armour unslice then have a high penalty for it to go along with the high base protection rate.


An idea would be to have the percentage as high as the base rate. For example if the "base protection" was 68%, unsliced then the penalty for the secondary stats could also be 68%.


This way other armour type like ubeese which has a low base rate but a high protection for a damage type like kinetic would still have a low penalty.
HomefryZappa
Wed May 05, 2004 8:46 pm
#12

I know ill get flamed but....I think that enc shoudl be lowered so it can be worn...but it should not change with the use of armor. Why must we keep trying to even combat by making the best worse.....lets make the worst better.....then no one wines. DONT nerf rifleman MAKE pistoleer better. same thing.....it is more fun killing rancors tha dieing



homefry zappa scout swords

homefry' zappa Master Doc
Master Swords

Prowd member of team-NOVA
donnysabertooth
Wed May 05, 2004 10:06 pm
#13

hoooohhhhh



aivut
The UnTouchAbles
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