Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Jedi Feedback: Jedi and Combat
Page 1 of 6
l0ngsh0t
Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:56 am
#1
Defence
- Force Armornow uses FAR too much power with the increase in damage.
:- reduce the amount of force used when armor abosrbs damage by 50%
- Mititgation has now gone too far the other way. Make high defence achievable only with mastering the LS and Defensive boxes.
:- reinstate the effectiveness of lightsaber and jedi toughness combined by 25%
- Lightsaber MasterBox. AE sabermoves are too low in damage andsimilar to theae moves of a single line in 1h/2h or polearm. 4th Gen lightsabers are barely higher in damage to their 3rd gen counterparts
:-Increase the damage of dervish2/phantom2/flurry2
:-Increase the base damage of a 4th gen saber over a 3rd...onenerfed+20-50 damagepearl is not going to cut it.
Enhance
- Force resistances are not even close to being effective enough
:- to sacrifice that many skill points you should be almost immune to poison, state effects, disease and bleeding.
- Master Enhance box. Regain conciousness and force run 3 are not enough reason to bother taking the whole tree.
:- Make it worthwhile...Tripple the force regen of meditate or standing rate , Increase the effectiveness of feedback/absorb (level 3?). Increase resist states mod.
Healing
- healstate self cost is now too high. States can be readily spammed with the AE moves in the lightsaber tree
:-Lower the cost
- total heal is now only curing 200 battle fatigue at a time
: make it a total heal as it should be
- healall other 1 and 2 can heal the jedi using it and for less cost than heal self. In addition thisability is contained in the same line as 'healwound other', making 4-4-x-x lines almost redundent, save battle fatigue heal.
:- Put 'self' and 'other' abilities in the same box. There is no need separate them. Instead the 4 lines may consist of, 'Damage'/ 'Wounds+Fatigue' / States+poison+dis+bleed' / 'AREA EFFECT HEALS'. Make this a discipline worth mastering
- Introduce a new line of AE heals (see above), not going to happen now I know but that's what you get asking for feedback 5 days before i live publish.
- Master Heal Box. Make it more attractive
:- Speed mods to heal2 self and other.. 6 seconds is a lifetime dueling,3 seconds off thatwould be a great boost
:- Power mods to the amount of damage healed with heal2 self and other.
:- Area effect heals drastically improved.
Powers
- Force Choke ticks for around 200 damage every second or so. This is completely negated by a buffed constitution.
:- increase it's damage
- Lightening is far too costly in comparison to lightsaber damage moves (i.e I candervish2 for5 force power with my saber at fc 1)
:- Increase it's damage/ lower its force cost
- Basic skills which jedi need to surviveGRIEFING (remember that?)while permanently overt state are force run and cure poison. 60 seconds safety after you zone and then what?
:- move force run and cure poison to novice enhance and healing respectively.
Thunderheart
Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:48 pm
#2
As we approach the combat balance and try to fine tune Jedi combat, we are looking at many details and we are looking for your input on different kinds of combat. What were your experiences when fighting:
- Jedi vs. Jedi Combat
- Jedi vs. Other Professions
- Jedi vs. NPC's
- Jedi vs. Creatures
loomis001
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:20 pm
#3
with the currunt light dmg vs creatures/critters patch i do 2k dmg with pecials against 2k ham stuff getting exp bit easier.
Ko-aIri
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:20 pm
#4
Just got back from dueling on TC2, 6/16.
My template is Master Lightsaber/Master Force Powers/Enhancement 4.0.0.4.
PvP Impressions:
First of all, wow, I can kill my opponent. And the duels are FAST now. No single fight lasted more than 2 minutes before one of us was down for the count. Marked contrast to the 20-30 minute boredom fights we had. None of my opponents were master defenders... so I don't know how that would affect these duels.
I was pulling about 1200 damage a hit in PvP with Saber Dervish 2 when the target was KD'd. About 500 when they weren't. This is what I expected from sabers all along. If the target is KD'd and has no healing, dervish 2 = dead opponent in under 10 seconds.
Force lightning 1 was hitting for about 500, force lightning 2 was hitting for around 1K. Throw wasn't particularly powerful, throw 2 hit for about the same as lightning 1. The force costs for these moves were reasonable, about 150 for lightning 2 and throw 2, less for lighning 1, though the delay time for lightning 2 seems very high. I was able to do more damage with multiple lightning 1s because they would hit much faster than lightning 2. Seems like a 1 second delay for lightning 1, 4-5 seconds for lightning 2.
I still think weaken is too weak. Weaken 2 knocked 400 HAM off my target and took 30 seconds to achieve it. Yes, against an unbuffed target this is crippling, but in buffed PvP or any real PvE this is a pretty worthless ability. It really needs to be higher to be of much use, IMO. Didn't get to see if weaken 1 and weaken 2 will stack with each other, I assumed not.
Choke is still ridiculously worthless. It needs some major help. It did literally nothing against my targets. I never even saw a gleam of whitebar from this attack. I think at best the fact that "You are choking!" popping up as a system message might fool the opponent into panicking, but that's about it. For a master-level attack, this is sad. It should 1.5 to 2.0 times the damage of lightning 2 and perhaps inflict states. Like do stun/intimidate and force to kneeling or something. But if lightning 2 does 1K in PvP, choke should be able to do 2K over 30 seconds. Hit for 500 and tick up to 2K full damage, then it would be rightly feared. Up the force cost if need be, but make this attack SCARY. I know this isn't the movies, but ask Captain Needa, Admiral Motti, or the gammorean guards what they were able to do when Vader/Luke choked them. Not a whole heck of a lot. And either Jedi could have easily killed their target with only the choke. Just ask Captain Needa.
So at any rate, saber damage and powers are MOSTLY fixed in PvP IMO. They are very powerful, with the exception of weaken and choke. Fix those, and maybe bump force throw up to match lightning (since they are both the level 1/3 of their respective trees), and close the book on Saber/Powers in PvP.
PvE Impressions:
In PvE, I can do very well now. Fought some various Mereks (harvesters, cavern creepers, etc). The damage output is on par with what I'd expect. 2-3K a hit with Polearm Spin 3 (gen 4 saber).
Choke appears to do about 4-6K damage in PvE. Why it does nothing in PvP, I don't know. Decent, but not as I had hoped. Lightning 2 does about 3-4K damage for 150 force, so why use choke that costs 300? Also, choke seems to deal its damage over 5 seconds, equal to the initial tick. So if the first is 1250, it will tick 4 more times for 1250 over the next 4 seconds.
Weaken surprised me in PvE... Weaken 2 does about 2000 off the health bar, which was more than I expected since last time I used it it seemed to do nothing. Didn't seem to do anything to the rest of the HAM though, just health... so benefits someone who can target health only, or who is using untargeted specials.
Overall though, a marked improvement. I feel like a Jedi now. If they can fix choke in PvP, I think we'd have a winner.
My template is Master Lightsaber/Master Force Powers/Enhancement 4.0.0.4.
PvP Impressions:
First of all, wow, I can kill my opponent. And the duels are FAST now. No single fight lasted more than 2 minutes before one of us was down for the count. Marked contrast to the 20-30 minute boredom fights we had. None of my opponents were master defenders... so I don't know how that would affect these duels.
I was pulling about 1200 damage a hit in PvP with Saber Dervish 2 when the target was KD'd. About 500 when they weren't. This is what I expected from sabers all along. If the target is KD'd and has no healing, dervish 2 = dead opponent in under 10 seconds.
Force lightning 1 was hitting for about 500, force lightning 2 was hitting for around 1K. Throw wasn't particularly powerful, throw 2 hit for about the same as lightning 1. The force costs for these moves were reasonable, about 150 for lightning 2 and throw 2, less for lighning 1, though the delay time for lightning 2 seems very high. I was able to do more damage with multiple lightning 1s because they would hit much faster than lightning 2. Seems like a 1 second delay for lightning 1, 4-5 seconds for lightning 2.
I still think weaken is too weak. Weaken 2 knocked 400 HAM off my target and took 30 seconds to achieve it. Yes, against an unbuffed target this is crippling, but in buffed PvP or any real PvE this is a pretty worthless ability. It really needs to be higher to be of much use, IMO. Didn't get to see if weaken 1 and weaken 2 will stack with each other, I assumed not.
Choke is still ridiculously worthless. It needs some major help. It did literally nothing against my targets. I never even saw a gleam of whitebar from this attack. I think at best the fact that "You are choking!" popping up as a system message might fool the opponent into panicking, but that's about it. For a master-level attack, this is sad. It should 1.5 to 2.0 times the damage of lightning 2 and perhaps inflict states. Like do stun/intimidate and force to kneeling or something. But if lightning 2 does 1K in PvP, choke should be able to do 2K over 30 seconds. Hit for 500 and tick up to 2K full damage, then it would be rightly feared. Up the force cost if need be, but make this attack SCARY. I know this isn't the movies, but ask Captain Needa, Admiral Motti, or the gammorean guards what they were able to do when Vader/Luke choked them. Not a whole heck of a lot. And either Jedi could have easily killed their target with only the choke. Just ask Captain Needa.
So at any rate, saber damage and powers are MOSTLY fixed in PvP IMO. They are very powerful, with the exception of weaken and choke. Fix those, and maybe bump force throw up to match lightning (since they are both the level 1/3 of their respective trees), and close the book on Saber/Powers in PvP.
PvE Impressions:
In PvE, I can do very well now. Fought some various Mereks (harvesters, cavern creepers, etc). The damage output is on par with what I'd expect. 2-3K a hit with Polearm Spin 3 (gen 4 saber).
Choke appears to do about 4-6K damage in PvE. Why it does nothing in PvP, I don't know. Decent, but not as I had hoped. Lightning 2 does about 3-4K damage for 150 force, so why use choke that costs 300? Also, choke seems to deal its damage over 5 seconds, equal to the initial tick. So if the first is 1250, it will tick 4 more times for 1250 over the next 4 seconds.
Weaken surprised me in PvE... Weaken 2 does about 2000 off the health bar, which was more than I expected since last time I used it it seemed to do nothing. Didn't seem to do anything to the rest of the HAM though, just health... so benefits someone who can target health only, or who is using untargeted specials.
Overall though, a marked improvement. I feel like a Jedi now. If they can fix choke in PvP, I think we'd have a winner.
aquaboy1976
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:40 pm
#5
I assumed that the high Lightsaber damage is because of the hidden modifiers that will be in place until the combat revamp. Is this correct?
izzysplace
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:43 pm
#6
Jedi Vs. Jedi takes a long time and Im normally out of force power before there is a clear winner
Havent seen any other professions on TCII other then Bounty Hunters and they are easly defeated
NPC's seem to be easy to wipe out though I have only killed Rebel NPC's nothing like Sisters yet
Creatures are just about where they are on live though to match the damage I do on live with auto attack I have to use sabre specials.
shagon
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:51 pm
#7
Jedi vs Jedi is pointless 1 on 1, or even 2 on 1. Dont do enough damage. Also testing a template of master d, saber 4400 healing, to a master healinger, mester d, 0044 saber, there was no difference at all. Master saber should do a lot more dmg and a non master saber shoudlnt block the same amount either.
Everything else is ok right, but still fighting high end 300k+ ham stuff, dont do enough dmg and need to be raised more.
Kitoth
Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:08 pm
#8
Feedback from my two jedi toons at different levels:
- Firstly, my master healing/master enhancement/4004 saber Rank 7 consular LJK is still horrible to play in 1-1 PvP duels. Against anyone with defense, I can't do any damage and can't protect myself. I eventually run out of force power from healing myself. I've tried to get a KD/Dizzy to stick, so that I can drain their force power (and cut off their defenses) but state effects with 1handflurry3 weren't sticking. Force drain doesn't seem to drain much, nor fire very quickly. I was able to posture down and KD people with saberthrow2 and combo3, but they usually pop right back up again. I haven't tried PvE yet today but until now it's been middling to fair. Against single mobs using melee attacks with buffs, I do fine- just takes a while to kill them. Ranged attackers are easier with saber block. However, against several opponents, I tend to die quickly if I don't forcerun away first.
In essence, while I could have gotten to the trials with this template (though painfully and slowly), I would never have gained a rank in the enclave if I hadn't been granted it. I simply can't PvP with this build- it seems I'm more a support player for group PvP. However, in groups, while I do get a little force ranking experience, it's not enough to progress or even stay at a certain level. And if opposing players realize I'm a healer, they typically seek me out and kill me first within only a few moments- that is if I don't flee first (since defnders can absorb damage from anyone attacking them, they can just focus on getting me out of the way). The healing/enhancement disciplines need some defensive boosts if they are to be a viable 'choice' of any jedi. Otherwise no one will master them and will simply take a line or two with their master defender/master saber template. Either boost these two disciplines or dissolve them into one another or the others.
- Secondly, my novice force wielder padawan has only one power to use (animalscare) which works and gives about 60 jedi xp on low-level mobs. However, using a training saber with no specials is still excruciating. It takes about 3 minutes to kill a carnivorous nuna (at about 120-140 dmg per swing), and I get a whopping 131 jedi xp for it. At this rate it would take 30 hours to earn novice lightsaber and a first gen saber and my first special.
In total, my impressions of jedi combat are... if I had just ground out 20-30 professions, and/or done the 3-6 month quests to unlock, I would be very very upset. From the start it is not fun to play, and even at the high end, unless you have the right template, it's only marginally better than a defense-stacker. For the estimated time investment, it's not worth grinding.
The big problem as I see it is that you should advance more quickly at the lower levels than at the higher ones. As you get better skills, your progress should slow. As it is now, it's the reverse. Progress is excruciating at the low levels, and gets exponentially easier once you get past a certain point. But reaching that point is pretty much an excercise in futility.
- Firstly, my master healing/master enhancement/4004 saber Rank 7 consular LJK is still horrible to play in 1-1 PvP duels. Against anyone with defense, I can't do any damage and can't protect myself. I eventually run out of force power from healing myself. I've tried to get a KD/Dizzy to stick, so that I can drain their force power (and cut off their defenses) but state effects with 1handflurry3 weren't sticking. Force drain doesn't seem to drain much, nor fire very quickly. I was able to posture down and KD people with saberthrow2 and combo3, but they usually pop right back up again. I haven't tried PvE yet today but until now it's been middling to fair. Against single mobs using melee attacks with buffs, I do fine- just takes a while to kill them. Ranged attackers are easier with saber block. However, against several opponents, I tend to die quickly if I don't forcerun away first.
In essence, while I could have gotten to the trials with this template (though painfully and slowly), I would never have gained a rank in the enclave if I hadn't been granted it. I simply can't PvP with this build- it seems I'm more a support player for group PvP. However, in groups, while I do get a little force ranking experience, it's not enough to progress or even stay at a certain level. And if opposing players realize I'm a healer, they typically seek me out and kill me first within only a few moments- that is if I don't flee first (since defnders can absorb damage from anyone attacking them, they can just focus on getting me out of the way). The healing/enhancement disciplines need some defensive boosts if they are to be a viable 'choice' of any jedi. Otherwise no one will master them and will simply take a line or two with their master defender/master saber template. Either boost these two disciplines or dissolve them into one another or the others.
- Secondly, my novice force wielder padawan has only one power to use (animalscare) which works and gives about 60 jedi xp on low-level mobs. However, using a training saber with no specials is still excruciating. It takes about 3 minutes to kill a carnivorous nuna (at about 120-140 dmg per swing), and I get a whopping 131 jedi xp for it. At this rate it would take 30 hours to earn novice lightsaber and a first gen saber and my first special.
In total, my impressions of jedi combat are... if I had just ground out 20-30 professions, and/or done the 3-6 month quests to unlock, I would be very very upset. From the start it is not fun to play, and even at the high end, unless you have the right template, it's only marginally better than a defense-stacker. For the estimated time investment, it's not worth grinding.
The big problem as I see it is that you should advance more quickly at the lower levels than at the higher ones. As you get better skills, your progress should slow. As it is now, it's the reverse. Progress is excruciating at the low levels, and gets exponentially easier once you get past a certain point. But reaching that point is pretty much an excercise in futility.
Issharraan
Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:20 pm
#9
PvP seems to have improved ALOT with todays patch. Damage and everything seems pretty good. Duels don't last indefinately anymore. BUT.. and that's a HUGE but.
Accuracy is way too low. +100 at master lightsaber is.. well it's too low too. But with just a fourth tier box you only have +75 accuracy. Being 0044 in Lightsaber myself one thing was clear, in the duels i had with Master Defender/FS melee defense i could hardlyland a single blow. +115 melee defense vs +75 accuracy is a lil out of whack.
Don't even WANT to imagine how it'd go in a Non-Master lightsaber wielder vs fencer/Rifleman template using CoB
lockder
Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:14 pm
#10
At the moment if you want survive a few seconds in pvp you need ( you cant pvp without it) get in defense skill tree 0 0 2 4 or master lightsaber. if you try do master powers master enhancement and ls you will die, if you get any template without defense or master lightsaber you will die. I want suggest add *some* (only a few) defense in master healing master power and master enhancement because we can see more templates running. all this is for jedi vs jedi because non jedi arent a problem. Also i tried get master power enhancement 1 0 4 4, healing 4 0 0 0 and lightsaber 0 0 4 4 and i keep me all time healing or dizzy and kd( i have resist all states on me )on me because i get a lot of damage. master power dont deal enough damage to keep them healing, its slow and it do low damage with more force cost than a lightsaber also i get more damage because i dont have my master ls or armor defense 2
Ka-oan
Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:17 pm
#11
PvE: HUGE improvement. Specials now hit in the way they SHOULD have from the beginning. Only issue I am seeing now is... my XP is halved. I was getting 800 or so JediXP per Savage Quenker now I get 400. Can we PLEASE zero in on BOTH issues at the SAME time?
Equalivious
Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:20 pm
#12
Pardon my ignorance TH, but is the "behind the scenes damage" implemented on TC Corbantis? I'm not seeing any real difference in damage with my saber with a high damage pearl slapped into it. It compares with the damage range on TC2.
Ka-oan
Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:20 pm
#13
I take that back. PvE: I seem to be hitting in the 500-1k range using specials with a 1 Handed saber, but not topping 400 with a Polearm. What's up with that?
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