Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC4: Path of the Jedi
My first post and I'm not sure that my Station Name and such show up so let me say I'm "Stryklone" on the Intrepid server. My personal background covers many years as a professional writer dealing with epics and such and long ago I did some major rules stuff long ago with an RPG whose name you would instantly recognize. I don't say that to get you to go "we must hear and obey" only so you know where my point of view comes from. Thanks for the chance to offer suggestions and feedback. I'm going to deal with questing to open up the FSCS. Ever since "The Iliad" there are elements which make a Quest different from the ho-hum mission. The major elements: Goal; Commitment; Investment; Conscious Sacrifice. Goal: Clear and well-defined up front. The Goal can change - for example a "mysterious stranger" to be escorted safely to Point A can turn out to be a royal princess or the like - but it's better to have that revelation happen after arrival at Point A, perhaps spinning off into a new mission to be done then. Changing the Goal in the middle robs the sense of planning, adds confusion, and lessens the sense of accomplishment, so please - no plot changes or revelations in the middle of a step. Commitment: A change in routine must be made to perform a Quest. The player cannot continue as they have day to day. They may be able to resume afterwards. Luke cannot stay on the farm which has been his life and expect to also do the Quest. The factory owner must prepare to be separated from his rounds for an extended time. The dancer cannot Quest and still be AFK in the Coronet Cantina. Perhaps all on the Quest must carry no more than, say, 20 items for its duration or something like that, whatever requires preparation/choice/decision to be made. The Commitment element should also be clearly spelled out up front. We're not trying to blindside people here or get them mad, they need to know what's involved. Investment: Hopefully that won't be monetary. It wouldn't be fair to those who haven't played the game to become wheeler-dealers to see those with massive bank accounts buy their way through to Jedi. What's the equalizing Investment? My vote would be for game time spent which will have to be spent to achieve the Quest. And that would be game hours spent progressing at some rate, not doing the AFK grind. Can't have something take half an hour and call that an important Quest. No sense of accomplishment there. Conscious Sacrifice: Several parts to that. First, it is not a sacrific to give up something one doesn't have. Merlin asked Uther Pendragon to give up his firstborn, Uther said, "fine, np" because Arthur wasn't even a gleam in his eye yet. No sacrifice. But had Arthur been a year old when Merlin says "give him up" .... aha. Second, the Conscious Sacrifice asks the player to make a choice to continue or not, and it will always be easier to not continue. So how can Conscious Sacrifice be handled in a game? Give the player a nice item which can't be dropped/traded/sold (using the Special Edition goggles as a reference here) but have this with definite special boosts. Perhaps a Clothing Attachment +3 or +5 in the player's specialty area ... a special musical instrument which boosts mind buff duration by an hour ... a special storage module for a bike ... a card which means whatever the player buys on the bazaar will actually deduct only 80% of what he pays from his bank account ... a devastating weapon which will absolutely blow the enemy but can never be repaired. Remember, this should be special and above the norm. Now here's the catch: After a period of time - 100 game hours later, 200, as long as there's been plenty of time for the player to use it, love it, show it off and grow quite fond of having it - THAT'S the time when the choice pops up to be made: keep it to use, but not finish the quest; or give it up (because the Emperor's new Legion wants to rally around their artifact which you have, or because a poor family can't afford to keep living in the ancestral home without it, or whatever) and giving it up is what really completes the Quest. Conscious Sacrifice. Giving up some neat stuff the player has been using for a while. They didn't have it before Questing, so they have no right to carp and moan. They still will but that's okay. *g* It will be their choice to make.
I agree with most everyone that the holocron system should stay in place and that not allowing a new character when you open your FS slot is quite unfair. I dont understand your arguements that a "casual" (as you say) gamer cannot get to jedi? Yes, it may take them quite some time to get to a jedi position, but dont you think it has taken us, who have done 20+ professions "quite" a long time? Just because we have decided to play a massive amount in a short time doesn't give you the right to say "well he can't get there because he is a "casual gamer".... He CAN get there! In exactly the same amount of time it took me.. He/she just spread his playing time out longer than I did.. That's not my fault or anyone elses.. It's just how the game was set.
If the system is changed, which obviously it is going to be, then those who are on the silent, 2nd, 3rd, etc. should definitely get a huge bonus. I read your "compensated" politically correct term for avoiding the answer to the question. But those who are silent should only have to do 1/5 of the quest system, those whoare on holocronfour should only have to do 2/5 of the quest system.....etc. That is the only compensation that I will accept. Otherwise I will have to take YOUR compensation away (a.k.a. MY MONTHLY MONEY).
As far as suggestions for quests, I leave that to you guys. I just don't want all my time and effort wasted without having to do CONSIDERABLY less than someone else who has not put in as much time as I, and others, have.
Thank you.
Stryklone wrote:
QUESTS
[snip]...
can never be repaired. Remember, this should be special and above the norm. Now here's the catch: After a period of time - 100 game hours later, 200, as long as there's been plenty of time for the player to use it, love it, show it off and grow quite fond of having it - THAT'S the time when the choice pops up to be made: keep it to use, but not finish the quest; or give it up (because the Emperor's new Legion wants to rally around their artifact which you have, or because a poor family can't afford to keep living in the ancestral home without it, or whatever) and giving it up is what really completes the Quest. Conscious Sacrifice. Giving up some neat stuff the player has been using for a while. They didn't have it before Questing, so they have no right to carp and moan. They still will but that's okay. *g* It will be their choice to make.
Here is the trouble with quest, it takes a short period of time for someone to publish a spoiler.
My suggestion is that some of the quest should be offered by Holocrons, and be completely random. Not simple go master some skill, but rather visit a difficult point of interest or slay some difficult mob. The trouble with quest that require one to get a rare drop is that all to often they can simply be bought.
I agree that if this requires a quest it should be a sort of epic quest. Oh, and dark jedis should play out a story line that embrasses sorrow, anger, and hate, like a quest of personal revenge, or building one's pride.
Here is my impression of a Jedi Master... Go padawn and learn to skillfully handle a light saber by hacking at a bunch of crazed durnies. I would teach you the finer art myself, but I pulled a muscle while trying to open a sealed container.
As for trainers, why are they such whimps in this game. All the trains I have had taught combat and similar arts by basically kicking my unskilled frame around the training center. To suggest attacking a Piket with a light saber is like trying to learn kendo by attacking the local wild dear. You may infact learn how to kill the dear with a long stick, but you're not even going to be close to developing any real martial skills. Why nothave a test of skill that requires the Padawn or Jedi to attempt to overcome one's master in a contest of saber skills and such.
Corandor wrote:
Ok first if i'm not mistaken we are in a time period AFTER the destruction of the deathstar, since it was mentioned in the leadins for the imperial crackdown. which is to say that the only living jedi is yoda, luke of course is on the path, but he would be in the padawan stage at this point since he has yet to visit yoda. This leads me to my suggestions 1. yoda would definately have to be an npc that needs to be met, of course this would require the creation of a whole new planet (which i think would be cool since it would be something that not everyone has been to fifty million times, and it could be a planet without a listing of POI). 2.problem with the blue glowy people showing up, is that obi wan was (at the time lucas did the first movie) the FIRST jedi to ever do that, it had to do with their power in the force, we see that obi wan, yoda and anakin all become glowy people, but they were also the 3 most powerful jedi, which we learn from episode I and II (though there is rumor of qui gon becoming a blue glowy person in episode 3) HOWEVER i'm sure there are plenty of people who were historians, which would make for great quest givers for the force sensitive slot. make them..research missions, a person has to go somewhere find something return it to the historian who then tells them a story about the jedi using this artifact, and that person then tells the player another random npc who can help them further. each of these research missions would require the player to travel great distances, MAYBE kill beasts on the way as we all know there are aggie beasts out in the wild, a general schematic for some sort of tool needed to retrieve this item that the historian gives them (crafting) the location of the artifact would be at the end of a maze, something that isn't easily solvedthus taking thinking skills of tpb. now these are all just for the force sensitive, at the end of the quests TPB has been given many stories about the jedi and the sith both (allowing them to decide for themselves which path they may want to try and follow, however their actions would determine where they end up on that path) the last npc may be a person who is force sensitive themselves, not a jedi but just someone who can sense the force in people, and that npc tells you that they sense the force is strong in you, and thus your FSCS is open. from there you have to take the knowledge you learned and seek out other artifacts that can guide you on your way, holocron cubes with schematics for light sabers, or other possible force items. through the construction of these items you gain a deeper knowledge of the force and become ready to seek out a jedi named yoda that you learned of through the historians, this could then lead to a shuttle ticket much like what will be available in the corellian corvette quest, and only those who are ready to become padawan's get it and go to degoba to meet yoda. from there all quests are given by yoda, this prevents bounty hunters from camping the jedi trainer as they will be unable to get there, and the padawan will be able to return to yoda whenever they need for a small price (rental fee of a spaceship). this is just my input on the whole shabang. based on where we are in the timeline of the star wars world, and a way to include all professions, and to keep bh's from killing all potential jedi.
Have You ever heard of the Enter Button??? Maybe Try Hitting it to Seperate Main thoughts...
Casper
almanish wrote:
Gee-ash wrote:Dark side should not be "really" attractive. at least you should experience a downside, for example Dark Jedi are not free they should "obey" to the dark side.
I have to disagree with this completely, the jedi order are the ones who need ot obey rules and regulations. While they suppress emotions such as fear, anger, hate, etc the dark side wielders embrace those emotions and use them to grow more powerful. Not to mention it is made quite clear that the dark side is the "quick and easy" path.
I know this has been stated a bunch before, but I want to add another voice to the chorus, I think armor needs to be taken out for jedi. If that means adding better deflection to lightsabers, adding resists to cloaks (yes we need the hooded cloaks) or add a new force ability granting the jedi "armor" for a certain time. I hate seeing jedi walking around in composite, it's tacky at best.
I remember that Vader and Palpatine were disfigured and body-corrupted by fueling the dark side feelings, like fear, anger and agression. Vader needed a suit of life-sustaining armor and Palpatine, well, he is a decrepit and wrinkled joke of a man. It is stated by light jedi masters that dark side consumes you, so there is a penalty. On the other side, it is stated too that it is not more powerful, it is faster, easier.
well actually Vader got dunked in lava, so dark side or not he was going to need a life support system and as far as Palpatine, the mas was in his 80's by New Hope, so I really chalk his decay up to nature taking it's course on the human body.
Principles that define how Jedi quests work.
Grace;
Research and practice into the arts of graceful skill progression,
graceful conversations, seeing things from a perspective that alters an alternative reality.
Diminishing returns;
For the system to automatedly see the things the players do a variety
of definitions of what qualifies and detection of macroing or doing
the same thing too much while not in a macro should be rewarded or spurned.
Its not how you die it’s how you live;
Measured by change, measured by ones eagerness or resistance to join causes,
number of new people seriously conversed with. Numbers of people helped
Becoming a part of the dark side or light side;
Is choosing near the end of a long series of non pointless decisions to choose
a culture of life or embrace a culture of death.
If by your actions payers are encouraged to defend and die trying rather than to let a culture of death (or life) embrace them then the choice is for the good side of the force.
Their is always movement towards one side of the force or the other, no in between no grey.
For example in love you may only fall more in love or less in love despite the
wounded of heart their are only two choices.
A neglect of the value others have or represent or letting evil triumph is not
an option for a good person and a choice of a dark one to embrace.
We have Axioms like They only thing for Evil to triumph is for good to do nothing.
These are examples of choices that can be measured and detected.
Not complicated (only as complex as the dev's wana make it), but a series of otherwise un-noticed events
which determine a strong likelihood that a player has chosen to be a force for good or evil.
By making becoming a Jedi driven from what I have written above, it satisfies all the design
goals and keeps to the spirit of the fiction without being programmer contrived and a plus,
is that it greatly opens up what the developers can do to programmatically satisfy quests
without introducing as many exploitable flaws.
Dreaming Droids.
fighting professions for non combate it would go into healer witch is medicle professions explorer witch is a mix of combate and non combate this is scout and ranger then entert and finally crafting since i am a non crafter my missions will consist of mission that could be handeled bye my skills some missions might be make a lelv 50 be pet since i am a be of course the dna will consit of a bull rancor rancor voritor lizard to make it dificulte i think u all get my point at keeping it hard but not always nesasarilly killing stuff for it to be hard