Development Cycle Archive

Thread: Should Force Sensitivity be a known path or a mysterious one? (II)

WesBelden
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:17 pm
#105



I'll start off by stating my opinion on the question asked:


As to the actual question? I'd ultimately prefer it to be some system that was extremely random so that no online guide (short of one of the Devs writing it) could get you through it and was for the most part unknown... and please, nothing akin to the Holo grinding - whatever it is, be sure to test it and think of ways that it could affect the game, because it obviously wasn't realised that the hologrinding would inflate the econemy to the extent that it has.


Now, here's something extra if you have the time to read:

I remember a post that was made last year a few weeks after the game had been released.


Before I go on I must state that the post was of course complete and utter Beloni, but the poster obviously had the best intentions and was attempting to make the gamebetter for all.


It was posted on the main board (no longer with us, may it rest in peace) and it was someone stating that the game had been decompiled and in doing so, the people doing ithad noticed a tracking system, very much like the visability Jedi have with BH missions, only this tracked various different things:


The amount of times you DB'd someone from a duel (note, not GCW),

The amount of foul and abusivelanguage used, including "leet" speak etc. - essentially things that would mark you out as a none roleplayer and detrimental to the gaming experience and immersion,



Now, this system more than likely isn't going to be made, but I use it as an example to illustrate the sort of thing I'd like to see. Something that rewards players for playing the game as it should be played, maybe even for helping other players out (although no idea how that would be implemented).


Right, that with some mysterious element as to actually unlock would be the perfect way of unlocking FS for me, it's mostly known and makes the game a better place, because everyone who wants Jedi so bad is doing their darndest to make the game a decent place.

Message Edited by WesBelden on 07-10-2004 02:18 PM



=======================================================================
WesBelden the last Smuggler Correspondent.
Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?
Chavabegga
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:24 pm
#106

I vote for known. As many people have said, once someone does it everyone will know anyways.

Things I think should definently NOT be part of it:


1) Camping- Sitting around fighting with a bunch of people for a particular spawn or loot off a spawn is in no way fun


2) Random Loot- Not only does this leave out non-combatants its completely random which can make it unfair. Some one could find the things they need quickly while others could kill things and never find it and not through lack of effort.


3) Do not lean towards the powergamer- This game is suppose to be for casual gamers too. Powergames will do anything you implement quickly no matter what. by making things super hard it just further pushes the casual gamers out of the fold. Powergamers all ready have the knight trials and the FRT to look forward too. Let unlocking FS being something the casual gamers can do too.


Things to consider:

1) Time requirement- this path should be open to casual gamers but it should not be open to people who just started. If people can join the game, grind a profession out and do the profession in a week soon there will be Jedi everywhere. By simply adding a few months existence requirement to characters it levels the playing field a little. No brand new people will be Jedi so as long as there are new subscriptions there will always be at least some non Jedi around. Casual gamers who may take a week or a month to finish something will not feel left behind because the powergamer who finished in a day still has to wait a little bit before moving on.

Now this should not be unreasonable. 1 month between parts and a total time of like 6 months is a little far. Casual gamers need time to complete things but no need to make people get bored simply waiting(kind of like why camping sucks). The first Jedi appeared in Nov which was 4 months into the game. So maybe 2-3 months before people can start and maybe take a month or two to complete.



Trader Revamp- Loot and Crafted Symbiosis

UDF Inc. Chu'unthor, Talus
-1258, -566
SideWind3r
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:26 pm
#107

I don't mind whether it's mysterious or known,just please do not make them like the knight quests or hero of tatooine quest where you have to spend hours and hours searching.



Nithalon Retzar

~Master Swordsman~
lupomaster
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:27 pm
#108

I am a stron beliver in continuity of the actual storyline of the books and movies...In the movies, how did luke become a Jedi? He had to talk to a Jedi to get started...how did Aniken get his start? He had to be "discovered" by a Jedi.


I think the new path so force sensitivity should be as such:


1) Everyone has some force sensitivity to begin with...(the force is strong with this one)


2) The Jedi wannabe should then find an existing Jedi. The level of the Jedi will be important here.


3) The force sensitive wannabe will then politely ask the Jedi to see if he/she is force sensitive enough (this should be done by having the Jedi examine the potential padawan. He (the Jedi) will then see a message about either a mission or a waypoint that the potential padawan must complete or go to.


4) The Jedi then chooses wether or not to tell the potential padawan about the location/trainer he must visit by way of a waypoint.


5) the potential Jedi candidate then goes on to find a series of randomly generated (NPC's for him/her the he must get missions from in order to earn Force Sensitivity points (maybe 24?).


6) This is repeated until the candidate has enough points to unlock their FS slot (again, maybe 24 pts). Whne he then re-visits a Jedi and gets trained as a padawan (ie: unlocks the FS slot and second character).


This method would allow for the following:


- Jedis will control the Jedi population

- Allows for veteran rewarding ( ie: if you have mastered 20+ profs while hologrinding you could start off the jurney with 1 point per profession mastered)

- Removes the "spawn camping" of NPC Jedi trainers

- Adds a level of seeking for the Jedi wannabe (ie: it's not something that is walkthroughable)

- Removes the "grinding aspect" and makes the process fun and dynamic for every player.


The problems i see here are:

- Malicious Jedi giving erroneous waypoints.

- The amount of coding that wiull have to go into generating a random NPC spawn for EVERY player

- The potential for "robbery" by Jedis (ie: I know what you need to do next but you must pay me for me to tell you )


I think this has got to be the method as making the new system wholly mysterious (much like hologrinding) will defeat teh purpose of removing the tedium of the grind. (Damn that last profession...still have not found it).


Overall, I thin kthe goals here should be:


1) keep in line with the movies and books

2) make it hard but not impossible

3) Make it FUN!!!

lund0529
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:29 pm
#109


When I first heard about this game, it was explained to me that getting Jedi was all about making the right choices at the right time. (This would have been about Beta 2 era I think...)


I thought it wasn't so much a prize ground out, or worked off, but rather an extention of the game to those that "deserved" it, based on playstyle, maturity, and any characteristics that would make those holding the Jedi accounts the ones that would add to the game by doing so. And I thought, those guys (devs) are incredible!


In this way, you could decide "What type of player do we want to wield the power of the force?" Then take that answer, and get someone with a psych degree to lace personality tests into the game. When a person has shown they have the right stuff, grant FSCS.


Go to the movies.In ESB Yoda tested Luke by acting like some simple-minded swamp hermit. If you really wanted ultimate control over FSCS, log a dev in to interact with the player to see how they react. Question them on their knowledge of the game, offer to sell them something at a huge loss to see if they tell you what it's really worth, taunt them, offer to share some new exploit. There are tons of things you could do. Heck, you could create exploits just to see who reports them "for the good of the game".


This view of the system would make FSCS mysterious. If it were done right, someone who got it wouldn't know how they got it. You could, like standardized tests, cycle questions or scenarios to keep it out of spoiler sites.


There is a great excerpt from Jurassic Park (the book) that fits this situation:





"You know what's wrong with scientific power?" Malcolm said.
It’s a form of inherited wealth. And you know what **edit** congenitally rich people are. It never fails."
Hammond said, "What is he talking about?”
Harding made a sign, indicating delirium. Malcolm cocked his eye.
"I will tell you what I am talking about," he said. "Most kinds of power require a substantial sacrifice by whoever wants the power. There is an apprenticeship, a discipline lasting many years. Whatever kind of power you want. President of the company. Black belt in karate. Spiritual guru. Whatever it is you seek, you have to put in the time, the practice, the effort. You must give up a lot to get it. It has to be very important to you. And once you have attained it, it’s your power. It can't be given away: it resides in you. It is literally the result of your discipline.


Now what is interesting about this process is that, by the time someone has acquired the ability to kill with his bare hands, he has also matured to the point where he won't use it unwisely. So that kind of power has a built-in control. The discipline of getting the you so that you won't abuse it.
But scientific power is like inherited wealth: attained without discipline. You read what others have done, and you take the next step. You can do it very young. You can make progress very fast.
There is no discipline lasting many decades. There is no mastery: old scientists are ignored. There is no humility before nature. There is only a get-rich-quick, make-a-name-for-yourself-fast philosophy.
Cheat, lie, falsify--it doesn't matter. Not to you, or to your colleagues. No one will criticize you. No one has any standards. They all trying to do the same thing: to do something big, and do it fast.
"And because you can stand on the shoulders of giants, you can accomplish something quickly. Yon don't even-know exactly what you have done, but already you have reported it; patented it, and sold it. And the buyer will have even less discipline than you. The buyer simply purchases the power, like any commodity. The buyer doesn’t even conceive that any discipline might be necessary.
Hammond said, "Do you know what he is talking about?"
Ellie nodded.
"I haven't a clue" Hammond said.
I’ll make it simple" Malcolm said. "A karate master does not kill people with his bare hands. He does not lose his temper and kill his wife. The person who kills is the person who has no discipline no restraint, and who has purchased his power in the form of a Saturday night special. And that is the kind of power that science fosters, and permits. And that is why you think that to build a place like this is simple."
"It was simple," Hammond insisted.
'Then why did it go wrong?"

Delusionalminer
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:29 pm
#110

I would personally be happier if the start and finish locations were random in a similar way to the hero quests. Also I would love to see the missions involve more than just go from point a to b, maybe have puzzles to solveor non linnear quests such as collecting items to craft an object for the npc or hunting a specific animal.


Although the experience doesnt need to be unique to everybody, having only small hints at what to do next at most, and no walk throughs posted on internet sites is the most important thing in my opinion.
Numen
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:32 pm
#111

All of my opinions are based on the idea that Jedi will be a huge part of the game going forward. It can't be assumed only a handful of people will unlock even if the quest is incredibly hard.


With that assumption, I consider Jedi a new experience in the game. It should not be a frustration 6+ months of guessing what to do. We already did that for the last 12 months.


Somewhat mysterius I don't mind, but I'm hoping for some quest system similiar to the hermit quest. Which it is static content, its not a static wp.




I would like some sort of quest system that gets me involved in the game. If this isn't possible with keeping it a secret, then you haven't changed the system at all. I stopped hologrinding because it was boring as hell. Even if being a Jedi is fun, it didn't matter because I'm not going to play a game and be frustrated by it, I do enough of that in RL already.





Amandil Morier - Tempest - Master Chef
Adonus
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:34 pm
#112

Simply put...the path to becoming force sensitiveshould be an unascertained mystery.


In the movies and the lore, no one knows why they have a highmidichlorian count. Perhaps it may be known that it is handed down through the gene pool, but otherwise, it is the unknown will of the force that seemingly picks and chooses who is born with a high concentration of midichlorians.


For those that say, "Well, once someone achieves force sensitivity, it will be all over the forums and everyone will know!", I say that there are ways to implement an mysterious path and not have anyone wise to it. It could be as simple as having a random timer set to go off anywhere from 3 days to 2 weeks from the point of the achievement. The only reason people figured out the old method of unlocking was because holocrons mentioned professions and people always got their unlock message right after training a master profession.


A truely mysterious path CAN be encrypted!
Darovarr1
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:37 pm
#113

I think it should be known.If it is a mystery the first person to get it done will post it and everyone will try to become a jedi, on the other hand if it is known being a jedi wont be as great and wonderful therefore not as many ppl would want to become a jedi.



Drem'/Darovarr MYST
BlueMilk
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:39 pm
#114

Make force sensitivity a reward for roleplaying.

Make it known that evaluation will often take place at publicized player-run events.

Can you imagine what a positive effect this would have on the game?



------------------------------------------------------------
Zenox Bochastle


The Z.Bochastle Company
Starsider

Ice-Cold
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:39 pm
#115





JustG wrote:


Should the method of becoming Force Sensitive (not the path from Force Sensitivity to Jedi) be a mysterious, unknown mechanic orone that is visible and known to everyone?






let it remain mysterious, dont listen to people who says it's not fair "i've been tryng since beta to get jedi" etc.. thats not the point, the point is to minimize the number of Jedi, and i myself am getting tired of seeing Jedi everywhere i look, overt guardians talking trash, showing off in a starport killing every other overt who walks past in one shot, killing tef doctors (you get the point)


if force sensitivity is mysterious, then this gives the people something to do, If I unlock FS and have worked hard in doing so, then I know all my efforts have paid off. But make sure it's a random task/quest (and hard) from random spawns in cities (c'mon, we dont want walkthroughs posted on the forum now...) if it's random spawns, then people wouldnt be in one place all the time, like at one point, in order to get the quest, maybe one will have to go speak to luke skywalker.. which involves you doing the Rebel ThemePark first, or go speak to the Emperor.


I dont care, just dont make it easy to get.. I've seen the professions after FS already, and we dont want everyone getting them now


p.s. All i want isan extra free slot to work on, and maybe the FS skills so I can actually get past the door in the Death Watch Bunker

Message Edited by Ice-Cold on 07-10-2004 10:43 PM



Arann Kandrov
Imperial Commando
- Best Pilot in the West Quadrant

"I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe" ~ Jango Fett
Orchta
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:46 pm
#116

don't make it a very hard one (like the grinding etc), but a behaviour one. You need to get points, badges, by doing quests. Well, no static quests but like if you do a quest, you get a point rating. After some amount of time you get force sensitive appereances (you can choose a skill from that points, and then you start over...)



Erut, Master BH, Master Carbineer, 0004 CM, Rebel 4433 Pilot -- Infinity
Minerunner
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:48 pm
#117








The question to continue discussing is this:


Should the method of becoming Force Sensitive (not the path from Force Sensitivity to Jedi) be a mysterious, unknown mechanic orone that is visible and known to everyone?




I think that it should have a level of mystery to it, however I don't think that it should be unknown or even unavailible to the average player, It should be difficult but not in the manner of killing things.


I think honestly that it should begin with a random encounter vision or some random encouter clue...For instance...


Roogah is rideing his Swoop across Tatooine, andI recieve a system message across my screen.


*Your neck beings to tingle and you feel as if someone is watching you.*


Roogah slows down and gets off his swoop and equips his sword cause he's an old jaded fencer who thinks he's gonna have to kill someone.


a minute after the first message


*You see a figure out of the corner of your eye* (NPC spawns off about 64m away)


As he approches the figure it says.


"Roogah, have you sensed it?"



Insert followup dialogue thru character boxes outlineing quest 1 of the path to realizing Force Sensitivity.


Because in essence ALL PC's will be Force Sensitive in it's base description, it's the path to realizing that sensitivity that is their journey.


You could even put modifiers to the trigger that spawns the random event.


Such as was the last mission performed for a good cause or an evil cause. Have the missions spawn based on faction or interactions in the dialogue defineing weather the player character is of noble ideology or of an evil allignment.


The NPCwould choose a path that eithercajoled Roogah into embracing his anger (if he showed he was an evil sort) or one that focused him towards peace and balance with it. And the Missions would have both possible outcomes...


For example if Roogah outwardly was a peacefull sort as evidenced by dialogue choices the NPC could give him a mission nearby that was to diffuse the situation, but if heused combat to solve the mission the NPC would "give up onhim" and then later a "dark NPC" would find him and carry on with thequest from the dark point of view.








Roogah Heeveah : Starsider, Alien Master of the Force : Roleplayer
Leoaf Be'lya : Bothan Ace Alliance Pilot : Eclipse
Minerunner : Test Center


"Cast aside your preconceptions and you will be delivered from this sin of assumption."
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