Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-17 Star Wars Galaxies Combat Profession Mix and Match
What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?
Flexibility, that is the strength of the current system. If someone wants to mix Rifleman/Swordsman (targeting Mind Bar), Pistoleer/BountyHunter (Pistol Offense), TKA/Doctor (Self Buffed/Tank) or Armorsmith/Creature Handler (Cash/Tank), the current system let's them do this.
As it is, players who are willing to devote more points to a given aspect of their character are then rewarded accordingly. I believe stacking defenses, for example knockdown resistance, dodge or block is great, if the player wants to focus on those elements. Another player might choose to pursue both Carbineer and Bounty Carbines or Pistoleer and Bounty Pistols, thereby stacking offensive bonuses for their character. In both of these cases, they are spending the points, which allows them to excel at a chosen path, but at the expense of having fewer points for other paths.
If you were to devote 10 years of your life towards mastering the sword, learning to dodge the thrusts of your opponent... and you were to also spend 10 years boxing and learning to weave and evade blows, each would benefit the other. Overall, you would be better at not getting hit, then someone who merely pursued one of these professions.
Having divided your 20 years between two paths, you wouldn't be as good of a Fencer or a Brawler as someone who had spent 20 years in a single vocation, but at the same time, certain aspects would overlap and provide greater ability then either single career.
However, having spent 20 of your years mastering combative aspects of life, you would not be as versed in entertaining or healing as someone who spent all their time, or a greater portion on a different path.
What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?
In a sentence, the master boxes are not worth enough.
While a Master Pistoleer / Master Fencer should be better at dodging then a Master Pistoleer / Artisan / Chef..... (ie, bonuses should continue to stack).
There should be a strong incentive for mastering a class.......
Currently a Bounty Hunter (0040) / Smuggler (0040) / Pistoleer (0410) has greater accuracy with a pistol then a Master Pistoleer / Combat Medic.. +145 vs +95.
Make the master boxes count for something, for every class. This could range from additional certifications in the best weapon/tool/dance technique etc for the given field... to high enough skill mods to make the mastering of any class worthwhile for someone pursuing that field of work.... to a skill which makes the weapon considering an Armor Piercing category higher then it already is (or extra experimentation for a crafter)... to adding a special move or ability of great value.
Whatever you do, the master box should be very tantalyzing for anyone pursuing that field.
How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?
Every profession needs something unique. Sure there will be a lot of overlap in the game, but everyone needs a chance to shine or something to contribute that no one else can do as well. Attaining mastery of a profession should increase this ability significantly.
There needs to be a balance between solo abilty and group ability. In Everquest, at the higher ends of play, a player (of most professions/classes) is forced to look for a group, sometimes their entire playtime as solo play is impossible. SWG rocks, in that a solo player can play game without the need for a group.
A group of three, with the best healing profession, the best scout to locate opponents and the best brawler profession should be more rewarding for each character in the group then any could do on their own solo, yet each should have some ability to play outside of the constraints of a group...
What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
The Dark Sun campaign setting for Dungeons and Dragons features Psionic Powers. Psionic powers are to Darksun as the Force is to Starwars.
I'm not suggesting add in psychic/psionic characters, as that does not fit in the genre or promote the starwars feel.
In Dark Sun, there was a Psionic class (Jedi Profession), but there were also those wth "wild talents" or inborn ability that had not yet manifested into anything beyond a very minor power/ability/skill.
In numerous Star Wars novels, characters who are not Jedi or Sith, have some limited control over the force. These characters are by no stretch of the imagination built around using the force, but do have access to a very minor application of the force which is both useful at times and builds the verscilimitude of the setting.
I would find this to be neat.
Anything else you want to say on this subject?
FIRST:
Star Wars is a skill based game, as opposed to a class/level based game. Allowing players to pick and choose the mods/skills which they wish to stack promotes the mix and match system of play or customizing your character to be that which you desire to play.
Others have posted that skills should not stack, but instead you should take the highest single modifier with the others meaning nothing. If this were to be the case, and nothing was to stack, we could take this slightly further and do away with skills by moving entirely to a class based system. By taking away stacking of skills or abilities, we essentially remove the benefits of a skill based system and might as well play with a restrictive class system instead.
SECOND:
The current incarnation of Star Wars Galaxies is a skill based system. If a player does not wish to pursue the Force Sensitive Character Slot (FSCS), ie get a Jedi character, a player will eventually find the combination of skills and professions which they enjoy the most. Once they reach this point, what is there to do?
In traditional roleplaying games, expansions have released, amongst other content, additional levels and/or alternate advancement skills to pursue. Basically, while the level cap might have initially been 50, it gets raised to 60, then alternate skills are added which take a character beyond 60th, then more levels are added again....
Providing additional professions to tinker with will be very welcome in any Star Wars expansion. However, some players while wishing to advance their character, will not wish to give up something earnt and treasured with their character.
Since this is a skills based system, the logical answer is to provide additional skill points to go with those new classes. As a marketing incentive, the player base would need to purchase the expansion to receive those points.
Star Wars currently has in the neighborhood of 30 professions, and enough skill points to master around 3 professions, depending upon the combination desired. It would make sense to maintain somewhere around this ratio of points to places where the points can be spent.
THIRD:
I would absolutely love to see something beyond the "Master Box", yet requiring the master box.
If an expansion was released with 8 new professions and 50 additional skill points, but also included a Novice Box, 4 skill tree's of 4 skills and a Master Box over and above mastery in an existing profession, that would be extremely tempting. To make this worth even more, characters could be limited to taking no more then one profession beyond the master box.
This stands with the theme of making the master box mean something.
I'm a little confused by the wording of some of the questions. Is this strengths and weaknesses of the current system? Or is it strengths and weaknesses of this design philosophy? Some clarification would be helpful, but I'll do what I can with what's here.
What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?
I enjoy being able to be self-sufficient. My family has 4 accounts, shared by 3 players, on 2 computers. This makes it impossible for us to "group" to accomplish our goals. We operate in shifts and truly appreciatethat this design allows us to. This design also allows for the greatest variety of characters while allowing others to quickly assess (at least to some degree) your skills and abilities. A pure skill-buy system would allow even greater variety, but would make it impossible to determine who can do what without reading individual character sheets.
What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?
The main flaw with the current design is that it doesn't feel like there is any choice, except to dabble. After mastering your profession of choice you will undoubtably have skill credits left over. "Extra" skill credits = wasted potential, and few players will choose not to spend them on something. Additionally, the Master Boxes are generally unworthy of the title "Master." These are not weaknesses of the philosophy; they represent flaws in the way the skill trees were built. There are certain "touchstone" skill boxes that you would be foolish not to spend skill credits on. (Quick show of hands: How many of you have Explore III?)
How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?
The most important thing (I feel) is to give players a distinct CHOICE between being a generalist and a specialist. One way of doing this is by replacing the Master Boxes with "Professional" or some other title and moving "Master" up one level and increasing the cost. The current "Master Artisan" then becomes the new "Professional Artisan." The new,improved Master Box would cost all ofyour remaining skill credits and allow a corresponding benefit. This would create a true purist, solely committed to his or her profession.
An alternate approach is to seperate the weapon certifications, droid certifications (?), and certain crafting schematics from the skill tree. Reduce the cost of the skill boxes accordingly,and add twice that cost on to the certifications. Players can than select the certs/schematics they want (within a hierarchy) at the increased cost. Alternately, they can take the appropriate skill to earn a "reduction" in cost fora class ofcert/schematic (in effect gettingthem at the current cost.) This allows you to add "Synergy Certs" that can be accessed by taking skills from two professions and "Specialist Certs" tied exclusively to the master box. It also allows a puristto purchase more certs/schematics than a dabbler.
Either of these systems draw attention to the CHOICES available, which is the strength of this system.
What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
I am not sure what this is asking. What's my favorite class combo? Is there a Hybrid Profession we are missing? I would personally like to see more "Synergy Bonuses" between classes and more oomph in the Master Boxes. An example of a "Synergy Bonus" would be adding a +5 Creature Harvesting bonus to the Master Marksman box. The logic being that a great shot would be less traumatic to the creature and result in less wasted resource. A +5 Surveying added to the Master Scout box would represent his or her ability to associate certain land forms with certain resources. This would encourage players to combine professions instead of just "cherry picking" individual skills.
Anything else you want to say on this subject?
I would love to see the current system evolve to the point that there are more viable choices instead of 75% of the players taking certain skills. All dreams aside, I think it is critically important to add teeth to the Master Boxes, add flavor to the Novice Boxes, and make each branch of the tree worthwhile. Novices should access 4 new skills at a very low level of ability, one for each branch. Each branch should be a progression of that particular skill instead of capping early (i.e. Explore III); allowing those interested in only one ability to focus their efforts. Masters should be proficient at each of the 4 skills and access a 5th that can only be gained by committing to the Master Box. (I would also like to see a reduction in the professions branching off of the Master Box; even if they branch off of all 4 of the lower boxes.)
Finally, I would like to say I appreciate that the new format of correspondance allows me this opportunity to share my views in a manner most likely to make an actual difference.
Tam Darkfell (Intrepid/Infinity) / Vendt Darkfell (TC)
Tycalibur wrote:
I think that Master Rifleman and Master CH are a highly effective combination (but I have posted my areas of improvement for each on the appropriate thread).
I do want to say that I think that Commandos should have some of their their skill points increased so that they cannot dabble in Combat Medic or the skill tree changed to exempt them from it somehow. I had a Commando poison and disease both me and my pet in PvP before he even used his flamethrower on me. This, imo, was a VERY cheap and dishonorable tactic. He was doing it to everyone he could get his hands on in this particular PvP situation.
If it had been a Commando and a Combat Medic doing this to me, two on one, I would have nothing to say about it. But what this particular player did, imo, gave him an unfair fighting edge.
Commandos are designed to be tough, and aside from a Jedi, they wield the most powerful weapon in the game. That's the point, though. They are already difficult to defeat wielding a weapon that can deal up to 800+ max dmg., I don't feel it is fair for them to have too many more abilities than they already possess. But I think what they are allowed to dabble in as a sideline profession should belimited some more than it already is. Thank goodness the last creature patch prevented them from being able to pull out creatures like GSPs anymore.
OK, master commando can not be a combat medic,,,, PERIOD.
OK your looiking at the flemethrowers max damage and not looking at the fact that it has a very long delay between specials and the specials can only be used up to 16m, AND commandos have the lowest accuracy mods in the game, AND has the 3rd lowest defenses in the game, AND is one of the only combat professions that dont get a counter/block/dodge, AND you say limit to what they can dabble in when they got the second largest skill dump in the game, AND neglect to realize even through the skill dump the DEVS still insist on leaving them balance with professions that spend little over half the points to master that and dabble in a lot more to become well more powerful than commando, AND commandos only have one working non-consumable weapon of their own.
I can go on forever on how rediculous you people are that are afraid of commandos and their FTs. Its not enough for you to accept that our one working weapon is geting some nerfs thrown on it. We have got to be one of the most broken professions in teh game, and yes, im starting to atribute it to the FT because moron noobs like you dont know enough to treat a commando like a brawler and kite them. Maybe if the damned FT didnt exist we would get some real fixes, but that doesnt seem like it would stop you uninformed noobs.
Tycalibur are you a nubi? Oh wait, 3 posts, registered yesterday and afraid of a GSP, you friggin noob! What are you a chef? (no ofense to chefs)
Sorry for getting off subject TH but you got to admit, we have gotten some very unfavorable nerfs and more to come, but these people dont let off stomping all over our dead corpses!
the current flaw of this system is the uncontrolled stacking of certain abilities (mostly defensive abilities) granted by choosing several parts of different professions. i feel that there should be some reward for doing this, but full stacking is not right.
this could be changed by splitting the current modifiers into skill ratings and skill modifiers:
a skill rating is an absolute value and only the highest rating determines a characters level of that skill while a skill modifier is a bonus on top of the highest skill rating. (to give an example: the mitigation abilities are what i consider skill ratings - mitigation1 + mitigation2 = mitigation2)
this way, a player can get additional skill modifiers for the skills he already has by choosing an additional profession, but it will not be possible to create an overpowered combat character if the skill ratings and modifiers are balanced. (note: i consider a character not overpowered if another character that did not spend all skill points into combat but mastered at least one combat profession has a realistic chance to win a fight)
it might also be a good idea to change some of the offensive abilities so that they can be used in another profession (ie change a part of "carbine accuracy" to a "general ranged accuracy"-modifier so that combining carbineer and pistoleer gives a slight boost to a characters offensive skills)
another aspect i would like to talk about is the distribution of skill modifiers within a single profession:
i think it is good that each of the four lines a profession has reflects a certain aspect of a profession, it allows to choose those aspects from a foreign profession to add the skillset of a character.
however i feel that upon mastering a profession one should get a small but significant bonus to all skill abilities of that particular profession. this bonus should be big enough to give a reason to master a profession, but it should not be too big - only taking part of a profession should remain a feasible choice (otherwise the charm of a skill based game system is lost)
one last thing i want to say:
after reading a skills name and the description it would be clear what this skill does and under which circumstances that skill is useful.
skills should either work all the time - regardless of the equipment a character is wearing/wielding - or it should be made clear that a certain skill only works with a specific weapon. (if dodge only works with a pistol or a 1h sword it should definitely stand in the description)
likewise only skills that do the same thing under all circumstances should have the same name (ie if a pistoleers dodge only works with a pistol and a fencers dodge only works with a 1h sword they should not both be called "dodge")
Give in to your anger 
One of the reasons I love this game is the skillset profession system you've implemented. There are countless complimentary professions, mainly because most people aren't yet (or do not even choose to become) Master. For instance, I'm a sniper qualified rifleman and do not have any other combat skills due to my commitment to Tailor. Therefore I need some protection from close encounters. This enforces me to find an experienced melee or CH with BIG pets. Because I have a choice who I team up with I have the opportunity to select the best team for the occasion. Lots of tanks for non-aggro tough critters or a variety of swipe type skilled close combat fighters for small camp invasions.
As for weakness in profession mixing, I think it's essential for there to be some major weaknesses in group mechanics. The leader is required to find the appropiate skills for the job. But in terms of Master x fighting alongside or against Master y, I guess there can be weaknesses when there shouldn't be. But I haven't mastered enough professions to really comment here.
I think the professions need to be able to each become very unique, becoming a Master should qualify for real changes in play. I think Squad leader has the most to change in my experience. Becoming a Master of anything should be hugely rewarding. Saying that, the ladder to master should be (and is) a long process, but it shouldn't be boreing. Each level up the skill tree should allow a slightly greater XP reward (unlike tailor)
As for combinations, again I haven't experienced enough of all the skills to really comment. Althoughthe Squad Leader needs some real leadership powers, so any profession combat or not can be complimented by a SL in any group situation. Issueing waypointsand various commands could sway the tide of any battle.
Elaborating on the SL for a moment, how about bonuses for the increase in military faction status. The more you progress as Rebel/Imperial the greater command you should have over your battalion. With the highest military status and master Squad Leader perhaps it would be nice to hold real authority over your cannon fodder. By commanding from a HQ base seeing a commanders satelite view a commander/squad leader would be able to issue vital orders/waypoints.
Finally, how about some Very rare items found off random NPC quests, like items only Master's can use making them very individual. I do think it's a shame all the mastery professions are within reach of everyone without any real customization. Being able to a Master Polearm with an incredibly rare special action taught off an NPC could potentially make celebrities of Dancers, Chefs and TKA's.
The strength is that a player can create a character who is able to fill the roles that interest him/her, without being confined to a single role, or to all the abilities of a single profession.
* What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?
It's horribly hard to balance mixed and matched characters, and a specialist needs to be more markedly more effective at their specialty than a generalist. This shows in two major ways in the current game state. Some abilities are far too cheaply bought for their effectiveness (I would posit a box or two of terrain negotiation and novice medic are two glaring examples). And stacking modifiers throws the whole "specialist should outperform a generalist" for a loop. For this, take a look at master pistoleers and carbineers (pad them out with, say, master marksman and something else) compared to a bounty hunter dabbler. Or, for that matter, a bounty hunter dabbler with skills in pistoleer or carbineer, compared to a master bounty hunter. The stacking mods throws the dabbler into a much more effective position, with the same weapons than the specialist.
Furthermore, defense stacking falls into this realm as well. It's obvious that stacked defenses were never intended to be used, or at least it was unanticipated the lengths players would go to achieve the stacking that they do.
* How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?
Eliminate stacking between different weapon professions completely (ie, BH speed/accuracy becomes only used on BH specials, dodges, counterattacks, and blocks become unstackable between the melee and ranged counterparts, state defenses become unstackable, and possibly ranged and melee defenses as well). Now, implement "flavor professions" that use Smuggler as their model. These flavor professions should be built to specifically modify ANY (or multiple specific ones, in some cases) weapon professions. A flavor profession would be approximately half filled with combat oriented content -- one or two trees, in effect. The others would be skills that are not combat oriented -- perhaps GCW content, or crafting abilities, or the like.
Now, these flavor professions are meant to complement an elite weapon profession, creating the option to choose between several slightly different flavors of that weapon. If you're feeling very ambitious, I'd revamp Bounty Hunter to be this way -- remove the lightning cannon, and replace it with humanoid traps, condense the pistol and carbine moves into one generic-weapon (like overcharge shot) offensive tree, and then grant them "lightweight" tracking abilities similar to the ranger. Finally, remove the master marksman pre-req, since the remaining combat abilities aren't meant to stand alone, and you've got yourself a flavor profession -- bounty hunting is something a character can DO, with whatever their weapon of choice (that they also have skill -- probably mastery -- with) is.
Another example would be to make an assault trooper profession. This would include bonuses to wearing armor, perhaps "trooper mission terminals" that provide missions geared towards small group combat that get more difficult and profitable with increased skill in that skill line, and some special moves. The idea of this would be to provide some "stormtrooper/rebel trooper-like content" that isn't specifically faction-based.
* What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
See my flavor profession idea. Neat combos come from interesting character concepts involving those -- a pikeman Bounty Hunter? I'd love to see that.
* Anything else you want to say on this subject?
When it comes to weapon profession mixing and matching, the weapon you're using should define your role (along with some partial modification of that role by flavor professions). A rifleman shouldn't be a tank. Even if he's also a TKA. The use of the rifle precludes the defensive training of the TKA skills. Therefore, accuracy and defense modifiers need to be based on your currently equipped weapon. The advantage of a mix-and-match character is like a swiss army knife. Sure, your swiss army knife can open cans and cut branches off of firewood -- but not at the same time. And a saw can cut branches better than the swiss army knife, just as a proper can-opener can take the whole lid off the can instead of punch small triangles in it. But if you've only got room for one more tool, and you think you're going to need to open cans and cut wood, the knife is a better option than either the can opener or the saw at fulfilling all the tasks you need done, in turn.
Make masters of a profession much stronger than dabblers.
I hate, I have to dabble because fighting creatures is my main fun but I have to do something that will provide me with credits for weapondry, armor, buffs, misc items.
I would be astraight fighter, if i could profit from it but you can not.
So what does that leave? A lot more people having multiple accounts, which I am against paying 30 month.
So 1 character for crafting and making money the other for fighting. Why cant we figure some way to have people use up all their skill points just be a very tough fighter and be able to provide for themselves financially.
Fighters should not have the cash of crafters but we should be able to make a nice living.