CUEmu - Thread Posts

SkyeDarkangel

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:14 pm

Well, all I can do it iterate what's been said already.

Bad change, bad.

There won't be any more variety in items, we'll see a lot less. WS's are going to max out Power/Speed, Chef's are going to max out Power or Duration (whichever is necessary for said item) because the experimation bars AREN'T equal.

I'd suggest a serious upping on the use of the other bars. If I spend 2 or 3 exp points getting an extra use out of my Brandy as a Chef, I'm wasting them. I can get a lot more power using those 2 to 3 on the Nutrition bar. If however those 2 - 3 get me3 or 4 uses, then it's a very useful attribute. Remember, this game is at the point where money isn't usually a problem for combatants, they get high level and do group missions, then they can spend as much as they need to get the best weapon available, or BE Brandy (regular brandy doesn't sell anymore, it's all about the power. Period.)

Also, you're making the established crafters even HARDER to compete with. How does a new crafter make money to GET resources good enough to compete? If I'm in business for 3 months, I've seen a lot stuff come and go, all I need to do is wait for a really high level resources and plop 15 harvestors on it. Boom, I'm stocked for a long time. A new crafter can't afford big harvestors, nor will they be able to catch up since they don't have the money to spend getting resource types or quality that haven't spawned. It'll be months before they can even come close to competing.

I say thee nay.

You want to make the level more fair for everyone? 1. Make the "other" bars useful. 2. Make ALL products useful. 3. Lessen resource quality's importance.

1. We'll see more variety

2. We'll see more products and less "BE Brandy or Bust"

3. We'll see high level items that only have small improvements, making low level weapons, armor, foods, etc, more useful.

And BTW, you should add droids to this game, I think Star Wars could use Droids.

.-----------------------------------------------------.
| Skye Blueriver:                                     | 
| Master Droid Engineer & Master Weaponsmith          |
| Lost City on Naboo, Lowca : Vendors at 3660 5667    |
'-----------------------------------------------------'

rogi

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:15 pm

#93

Remove this change ffs.

Kevy

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:15 pm

#94

I have a number of concerns:

- Are you going to do anything about pre-patch items? As a new Armorsmith, how am I to make a living?

- I am concerned you don't realize the full scope of this change. After the pre-patch items get filtered out, the combat ability of everyone in the game will go down. This is fine for PvP, but may need some thought for PvE.

- You claim the change will create more diversity. I don't. Want to know why? Because now there are about 10,000 more combinations of items I can make through experimenting than I will be able to make with the new system. So don't tell me about diversity!

- I MIGHT, just *MIGHT* be able to stomach this change if you make HAM, durability, etc. WORTH experimenting on. Right now, all that matters is getting the highest number when you divide damage by speed. Diversity, my ass.

- My biggest concern is pre-patch items though. Please tell me you're deleting them all. To not do so would make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Know you nothing of economics?

Kevy Junior

Artisan: [4-4-4-4] | Marksman: [2-4-4-4] | Scout: [4-2-4-4]

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on." - Theodore Roosevelt

AvaroT

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:16 pm

#95

jefmes wrote:

The fact of the matter is that the majority of you posting here are people who play the game a lot (like I do) and like being Masters and/or near Masters because you're making these best items. What do you normally experiment on when making a weapon? Damage. No one wants a weaker weapon - why? Because there are almost ALL max capability weapons out there.

Do you not see the other experimentation bars? Most of them go unused because the current implementation is lacking importance for these other stats. Part of what this crafting change is supposed to do (as Chrysalide mentioned) is make crafters make CHOICES. Right now we don't make choices, we go for the damage first, and speed second. The other stats need to have importance and effect overall gameplay to a greater degree. Does it water down the playing field a little. Yes - because it IS evening it out. There will MUCH greater difference between players, but on a smaller level.

I for one think these changes are for the better, as it's a step toward putting the economy where it was SUPPOSED to be in the first place. It ain't gonna be all that bad except for you freaking power-gamer min-maxers, and if it drives some of you away them I'm ALL for it.

Fine, so make SPEED matter more on weapons by reducing the speed skill mods that anyone can get. How does changing the crafting system help this? And what does this have to do with the economy? At best, it will screw up the economy for a long time to come, because of the huge "pre-nerf" everything market that it will create.

____________________________________________________
Tekhap Ybrae: RIP
Avaro Trimihow: Back For More

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

kayxfour

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:17 pm

#96

So to "fix" the economy you introduce crafting nerfs that will make hundreds of thousands of items "pre-nerf", causing an insane spiral of inflation? Brilliant, you need to fire the people in charge of these kinds of decisions.

=============================================
*Please deliver auction winnings to my vendor unless specified
*In-game name kayxfour
*Kay's Place and Sales, hundreds of loot items available! -4850, 3000 just outside of Theed
*Currently in persuing RIS and all its wonders... 7 peices to go!
*Currently 4/1/1/1 jedi initate, sick of the grind already

DarthIguana

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:19 pm

#97

Psycho11 wrote:
I must be confused here.
You say that all Master crafters make similar products and that this change is intended to level the playing field for crafters. That is a contradiction. There are *no* crafters that simply go up one or two crafting trees. They *all* go to Master. Thus they are "all" on the same playing field so to speak.
Furthermore, this is in *no way* going to help fix the problems with the economy. People are gonna pay whatever the crafter makes them pay. Let me show you something:
Just for the sake of argument take these two pistols
Pistol 1 - Pre nerf: Expertly crafted has 180 max damage. Thats the best there is. It sells for 100k.
Pistol 2 - Post nerf: Expertly crafter has 150 max damage. That's the best there is. It sells for 100k.

This is very crude, but there is NO price shift. Top dollar will always go to the best items, no matter how you nerf the actual values.
The real effect of this nerf is not going to have any impact on the economy *at all*. It's only going to make the very best items, less useful overall. The dollar value will not change. I am somewhat confused as to how you think a sweeping nerf of all items will cause a price shift.
Top quality gets top dollar. Whether top quality is 180 or 150.
You have effectively nerfed everything *except* the economy. Well done.

Yes, every crafter goes to master and, the point to this whole change, is that every crafter makes the SAME guns (or whatever you craft) because resource quality doesn't have that great of an effect on the final product. Effectively, 2 master weaponsmiths, one with average resources and the other with excellent resources, mke roughly the same product in the end and, because resource quality takes a back seat to experimentation points, that product will be maxed out in nearly every experimentable catagory. Under the new system, the weaponsmith with the weaker resources won't be able to make "the perfect gun." The two weaponsmiths will make weapons with different stats that will have to sell at two different price points because of the difference in quality. Additionally, two master weaponsmiths with IDENTICLE resources will have some choices to make about what stats to boost. THIS is the the part that levels the playing field. Now they have to choose what attributes to accentuate and THAT is waht will create diversity of product in place. At a given market price point, there will be low HAM guns and high damage guns and an average of the two.

As a crafter, I'm happy about that. Product differentiation is what will set us apart from each other. The newbies that don't have uber resources will get them eventually just like the established guys do. Like every other crafter in the game, it will just take time to build their inventories.

Chris

~ Liavuss Mekka of Chilastra ~

RallyFire

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:20 pm

#98

TH you gave an example of how the new system works but there's still some lack of understanding from some people. Perhaps, if you can give a real in-game example people will have a better idea of what's going on. Give a more solid example like crafting a FWG5 pistol and an advanced comp helmet. Show us how the pistol and comp helmet work now and how it would work after the patch you intend to apply. Give step by step explnations from the resources with exact stats used to how exp. points are distributed.

Oh and one more thing I know you guys say you always read and lurk around but just checking... are you guys reading this?

Kevy

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:21 pm

#99

We demand an answer on what you're doing about pre-nerf items! It will not only bar new crafters from doing what they do, but you're also hindering new players from participation in the GCW!! How is a new player supposed to compete with pre-nerf 80% resist all low ham composite armor and more effectice weapons? Are you just ignoring this problem? Surely you discussed it with the team and simply *forgot* to mention it in your post?!!?!

Kevy Junior

Artisan: [4-4-4-4] | Marksman: [2-4-4-4] | Scout: [4-2-4-4]

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on." - Theodore Roosevelt

Animi

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:23 pm

#100

Chrysalide wrote:

...

In reviewing the threads on this forum regarding this new change, I have seen a lot of intelligent testing and discussion going on. More than a few people have mentioned that "if it isn't broken, we shouldn't fix it". The point as we see it though is that the current system is broken, and does need to be fixed. We feel that this is a change needed for the long-term health and enjoyment of the game, and we wanted to provide and frank and honest explanation of our reasons behind its implementation.

You see, you are right that the economy is broken, but I can't by any stretch of the imagination wrap my head around this theory of yours that more diversity in goods will curb inflation. What economist told you that this would cure your problems?

Inflation in this game has been caused bythree things, and three things only:

The existance of a money printing press that never stops churning out credits (a/k/a mission terminals);

Credit duping (this is probably the largest contributor); and

Inadequate money sinks.

Nowhere in that equation is "lack of diverse goods"listed as a contributing factor, because, quite simply, it's not a factor at all. Accordingly, since it is not a factor, your attempt to bring more diversity into crafted goods is not going to do ONE THING to fix the economy.

In fact, it's going to make things worse. It's going to do even more to concentrate wealth in the hands of already established crafters. The reason is because those crafters will stock up on legacy weapons, which will command a super-premium price after the patch. New crafters will continue tohave nothing of value to offer their customers after your "fix." Furthermore, you will drive up the bring even higher on those ever valuable experimentation SEAs. If one of these new crafters even hopes to have a chance to compete with the legacy weapon vendors, they will need to expend hundreds of millions of credits just to get those 2 extra experimenation points.

I hope you can see the folly of your plan. Just because you say it will fix the economy, doesn't mean it will. In fact, there are only three ways to fix the economy, and they correspond directly with the causes listed above. Those fixes are:

Decrease mission payouts.

Get rid of all credit dupes.

Increase money sinks.

That's it. Those are the only ways you will be able to fix the economy. This proposed change to the crafting system is only going to punish new crafters and reward established vendors who can stock-pile legacy items.

And trust me, three years from now, people will still be selling those legacy goods. Saying those goods will slowly bleed out of the market is just burying your head in the sand.

Trost Bemin Profession Undecided
Tsort Nimeb Munitions Trader Extraordinaire
- Back with a Vengeance. (1) (2) (3)
- Bemin Industries Armor - On Sale Now!
- How to Fix the NGE

stevenc413

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:26 pm

#101

This is stupid devs. WHy can't you just stop this madness.

Arrya

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:26 pm

#102

This reasoning baffles me. I could honestly care less about the nerf, but the dev reasoning does not seem accurate at all. Honestly, if you guys want to nerf crafted goods across the board, you should just come out and say it. The arguments about more variety and competition just don't hold water. In fact, they will be worse in the new system.

Higher dependence on:
1. Resoure quality
2. Skill tapes

Both of these things raise the barriers to entry for new crafters coming into the field. A good stockpile of resources can take months to build, and maxed out skill tapes require HUGE investments (or a month of loot macroing).

There is not going to be more vareity after this change - there will be less. There will always be one "most important" stat to experiment on, and the rest will not be used at all - now that it takes all your experimentation points to max that stat, the rest will be useless. And for non-master crafters - now they cannot even remotely compete at any level. For weapons, you might as well just have the damage/speed experimentation lines and remove the rest now because no one will bother at all with the other things. The "variety" of more accurate, more durable or easier HAM weapons are going to go away.

_______________________________________________________
Arsenal
The little green Napoleon
_______________________________________________________

UmmonPrime

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:26 pm

#103

Animi wrote:

Chrysalide wrote:

...

In reviewing the threads on this forum regarding this new change, I have seen a lot of intelligent testing and discussion going on. More than a few people have mentioned that "if it isn't broken, we shouldn't fix it". The point as we see it though is that the current system is broken, and does need to be fixed. We feel that this is a change needed for the long-term health and enjoyment of the game, and we wanted to provide and frank and honest explanation of our reasons behind its implementation.

You see, you are right that the economy is broken, but I can't by any stretch of the imagination wrap my head around this theory of yours that more diversity in goods will curb inflation. What economist told you that this would cure your problems?

Inflation in this game has been caused bythree things, and three things only:

The existance of a money printing press that never stops churning out credits (a/k/a mission terminals);

Credit duping (this is probably the largest contributor); and

Inadequate money sinks.

Nowhere in that equation is "lack of diverse goods"listed as a contributing factor, because, quite simply, it's not a factor at all. Accordingly, since it is not a factor, your attempt to bring more diversity into crafted goods is not going to do ONE THING to fix the economy.

In fact, it's going to make things worse. It's going to do even more to concentrate wealth in the hands of already established crafters. The reason is because those crafters will stock up on legacy weapons, which will command a super-premium price after the patch. New crafters will continue tohave nothing of value to offer their customers after your "fix." Furthermore, you will drive up the bring even higher on those ever valuable experimentation SEAs. If one of these new crafters even hopes to have a chance to compete with the legacy weapon vendors, they will need to expend hundreds of millions of credits just to get those 2 extra experimenation points.

I hope you can see the folly of your plan. Just because you say it will fix the economy, doesn't mean it will. In fact, there are only three ways to fix the economy, and they correspond directly with the causes listed above. Those fixes are:

Decrease mission payouts.

Get rid of all credit dupes.

Increase money sinks.

That's it. Those are the only ways you will be able to fix the economy. This proposed change to the crafting system is only going to punish new crafters and reward established vendors who can stock-pile legacy items.

And trust me, three years from now, people will still be selling those legacy goods. Saying those goods will slowly bleed out of the market is just burying your head in the sand.

Well, instead of a hundreds of filthy rich, there will be an elite few who can control just about anything bought and sold in the game.

But I think that's just paranoia

Elood- Trader - Retired AS/SW
Elood'- Jedi- I know, I suck. Bite me
Dark Sword, Naboo 6932 2054 Loots

annelid0

Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:27 pm

#104

It's difficult to add anything new to the incredibly negative response to this change, but here's where I stand.

I'm a master doctor. Not a salesman and not a starport buffer. What I make I make for myself and my friends. I have neither the time nor the funds to get perfect resources, especially given that months at a time can go by without seeing any decent spawns of the more specific resources. My best products are not on par with the best products of crafting-oriented doctors. But they're not bad, and can suit my needs just fine. I could be considered the game's version of "middle class".

When this change goes through my best products will drop drastically in quality, and the price of the occasional sale I make will considerably increase. Not because I lack skill, and not because I want to rip anyone off, but without top quality resources (avian meat at 80cpu, anyone?) all my products will suffer.

Should a crafter who stockpiles the best resources be rewarded? Of course, they put in the time and effort to do it. As things are now, they're already rewarded. They make the best stuff, plain and simple. They have the clientele and bank accounts to show for it. I, meanwhile, could make a modest living selling lower priced goods made from relatively modest resources.

The way to improve crafting is not to make resource quality more important. That rewards mining and hoarding, nothing more. Anyone wishing to craft with any quality will be forced to dump more and more money into the hands of already overpriced resource sellers. There are no hard decisions to be made in a situation like this. There's only one option. Maximize the trait that's most important at the expense of all others.

The rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer, anyone in between will be forced to one extreme or the other, and nobody at any end of the spectrum is going to be having fun. The price of anything of even modest quality is going to go way up. While established players may be able to get along, the unfortunate newer players are going to suffer worse than ever.

This isn't a matter "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." It works fine, so please don't break it.

------
Ilykerrimo
Grumpy Old Pikeman
Masochistic Wookiee

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Thread: Understanding the Crafting Experimentation Changes