Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Correspondent Top 5 Lists: Where we are and where we're going.
Good day,
TH I read your post "the art of combat" it has some very interesting and very exciting possibilities to it.I have to say the idea of having weapons speiclization is a very keen idea, from a profession stand point I see a huge fault.
As a bounty hunter, I'm left with next to nothing for skill points, in a over all look at other hard combat professions. (BH IS a hard combat profession) they have a huge amount of skill points to use and modify their templates the way they want. Bounty hunters do not have this in any way shape or form.
My questions is this:
Has there been any thought what so ever at removing the scout template from the requirments of BH. I'm sure you know, if not , that the original template was bralwer as well as marksmen. That template actually gave the bh an ability to fight not only our npc targets but to be able to participate in the pvp as well.
It has been said many many times on the Bh fourm that we need have scout removed from our template, the wonderfull things you have planned for combat as a whole will not even be a glimmer in the eye of a master Bh simply becase we have no skill points available to use effectively.
Some will disagree with me, but no matter what being a basic medic to heal your wounds when you come back into town is huge help, especailly when their isn't any medics around to help you out.
I would hope that my comments have not fallen on blind eyes or deaf ears and that some consideration is givien to my question. I do have ideas to support my suggestion here.
Thanks for your time and consideration
L Garuk
Yrab wrote:
Neologist, your an ass.
The feeling is now mutual.
The guy was only trying to give you food for thought. Hate to break it to ya, but he's right. I know what kind of crap these Devs have to put up with. In fact every Dev I know puts up with the crap. Doesnt matter which game.
Wrong. He was not trying to give any "food for thought" he was whining about whining and saying 'coding is hard', the fanboi mantra whenever something goes wrong. It's a completely IRRELEVANT point. I don't care if coding is 'hard', when something is broken I will ask for it to be fixed. I'm not going to stop asking for things to work correctly because coding is 'hard'. It's a completely stupid and moot point that has nothing at all to do with anything at all. My analogy was sound. You are not excused from the responsibility of a job just because the job is hard. It's so blatantly obvious that I can't believe I have to keep explaining it. BUT, you're attitude is exactly the kind of lazy attitude I expect from young people. You're both probably college students or new to the work force and think that because something is complicated you get a free pass when you screw it up. So just to sum up my first response to your post, not only are you making an irrelevant point, you aren't even making or defending the actual point of the person I was replying to.
Everybody wants their problems fixed...and now. The forums of every MMORPG are full of whining people who don't have a clue about bringing a game to life. And they don't want to hear the answer...it makes them 'sick'. Am I totally satisfied with the game? No, but I know the Devs are working on it. It is a never-ending job. When they aren't working on it anymore, then you can kiss the game goodbye.
Here again you have no point. People shouldn't complain? Seems to me YOU aren't being very constructive either, being as how you are merely whining about whiners. Let me promise you, despite how clever you obviously believe you are, I will never get all tingly inside about thunderheart going around and bumping a bunch of posts with the standard spin answers about we're working on it. I can't conceive of why that should be so excellent. Why does it merit this thread? He didn't even hit ALL the professions, much less put anything substantive into the majority of the threads. He BUMPED a bunch of complaints. Pardon me if I'm not creaming myself in ecstasy. Big freaking deal. He could have just as easily left them as they were.
I would like to see more content. I would like to see new quests. But, griping because the shuttle runs every ten minutes? Doesnt bother me.Griping because it takes so long to travel from one place to another? Doesnt bother me...impresses upon me that this place is massive. I for one like that.
This is a straw man argument. You attempt to undermine legitimate complaints by attacking flimsy ones as if the ONLY complaints are flimsy ones. Perhaps you need to go read the problems some professions are having if you think they are flimsy. I'll give you an example. Politicians repeatedly fail to receive their experience from elections. Without experience, there IS NO PROFESSION. It's a basic and fundamental part of these games. I'm sorry, but 'coding is hard' is NO excuse for failing such a basic function. What if no one got ANY experience for ANY action for WEEKS at a time? Everyone just running around doing nothing for weeks hoping to get a fix. Would you be here saying coding is hard? Or would you be a rational person and realize that it's a major ball drop, a MAJOR display of incompetence, to allow the most fundamental aspect of an MMORPG to slip through the cracks? I wonder.
Try, from a RP aspect, to make the game better for you and others. I've been here from day 1 and have alot of memories...good and bad. I will take them both...adds depth to the game for me. I also tend to find that some of those that gripe on these forums (some mind you) are the same that treat people like crap in-game.
What a worthless point. I play a merchant/crafter and a politician/pa leader. Our PA does player created spying missions for the GCW. I haven't run a mission terminal missionin weeks. I do nothing BUT add depth to the game, support my friends and PA mates, etc. I bought this game for Christmas for my brother-in-law. I've convinced many friends and family to join. WHY? Because there is not only potential, there is a great deal fun to be had CURRENTLY. But that changes NOTHING. Fundamental aspects of the game should be dealt with more quickly, more professionally, more accurately, it's a fact. Things go wrong in this game that I couldn't CONCEIVE of going wrong in other MMORPGs when I was playing them. I cannot imagine how the Asheron's Call playerbase would react to spending weeks at a time unable to advance because some bug was failing to award experience. To have that compounded by a total failure to even ADDRESS the problem by the guy who's job it is to address things EXACTLY like that is absolutely stunning.
Thunderheart posted this spin thread as if he'd just accomplished some great task. But you know what I don't know? When are they fixing political xp? When are they fixing the 100s of other bugs, MAJOR bugs that affect FUNDAMENTAL parts of the game? When??? Soon? They're working on it? Coding is hard?
Give me a **edit**ing break. You may be all giddy about the fact that thunderheart bumped a few threads, but me, I'll be happy when something ACTUALLY starts getting fixed. So why don't you take your little excuses and shove em, mmkay?
You may go.
I think the Devs are doing a great job, but then again...I know what they do. Griping at a Dev is not the way to get things changed. Bringing forth great ideas with thought will get their attention.
I am just throwing something in here................
I am sure you have all heard this many times but................
I AM SICK OF THE DECAY!!!!
I REALLY WANT TO ENJOY PVP, BUT IT'S HARD TO WHEN I KNOW MY STUFF IS ABOUT TO BE DESTROYED BECAUSE I WANT TO HAVE FUN!!!
It really makes me not want to engage in PvP.
I am poor ingame and now have to always worry about what I am taking with me and if it's about destroyed, ect.
Enough is enough already!
Come on guys!
PLEASE!
IT'S CRAZY!
And enough with, "But it's for the economy".
I never have enough money!
It's always being spent.
There is plenty to buy.
Unless you have cheated or can play for limitless hours!
We'll see after tomorrow when devs'll be back what they do.
Changing for example HAM cost of any skill is less than 10s coding+compiling. By the way some other bugs aren't that easy to fix.
By the way if unsatisfied we should make a petition to encourage everybody to suspend our accounts during 1 month to help the devs working with more efficiency realizing that the game will die if they don't respect their customers by providing what the game claimed to be.
Sith, yes. Only 2.
Now, if you're saying they're the only two Dark siders; you're incorrect. You have the Inquisitors and the High Inquisitors, at least a dozen including High Inquisitor Tremayne. You have the Emperor's Hands including the pilot from the TIE Fighter series games (Mikas, I think) and Mara Jade. You also have the Dark Side Prophets that the Emperor allowed to exsits.
The Emperor destroyed the Jedi Order and anyone who didn't bow to his will. All the dark siders in this game are effectively fulfilling those roles.One also can't say "Ignore the Expanded Universe!", because Thrawn is a POI character, and he's Expanded universe.
Also, technically, that's exactly what this game is, an Alternate Expanded Universe for Star Wars.
"Anyone that disagrees with this needs to go and read the books again."
Umm...Mara Jade, the 1st that comes into my head atm, im sure there are more...
electricnomad wrote:
Thunderheart, I can't be the only one out here who wonders what exactly is going on at HQ.
It seems to me that 6 months into live, we're actually ditching a large part of the three-year development process and starting anew. Combat itself is getting totally reworked. KeyStar Wars professions like Smuggler are being scrapped and sent back for "redevelopment," as if no input up until now has mattered and the profession we had before was a holding pattern.
In short, SWG seems to be dying and SWG2 is already rising in its place.
Granted, this is my first MMORPG, and it seems there are many people like me who have never seen a game develop. Is it typical that a key system like combat is taken out and completely overhauled after six months? That seems remarkable to me.
Have the remaining Devs decided that Holo's vision simply didn't work and agreed to take SWG in a different direction? Is this a sign of complete upheaval, or am I jumping to the wrong conclusions? I'd like to know what the Devs have in mind for this game, becausenow that the coire system is in place and the promised cities, vehicles, and mounts are in place,I get more signs that we're on the verge of a revolution. Am I wrong?
Please, Thunderheart, I've followed the Devs this since Beta. I just want to know where they're going and if it's a different place than we've been told up until now. I want to get my bearings.
I can answer this guestion. unless it was answered already,
I have played Many MMORPG's and the combat system is most have been tweaked here and there, but never totaly revamped. But I know and understand why they are doing it with SWG.
The original combat system (minus ham cost on weapons spec) was going to be teired in the type of weapons and the damage they had done. Back in beta they had upped and played and lowered damage out put from both PC's and Mob's to get a balance. Then they decided to be in Weapon Certs. At the very first patch. Most weapon certs where in the Elite prof levels and spread through out the lines. so novice pistoleer only had two or three weapons at thier disposal. To get any of the good weapons you had to work on Pistoleer.
Same with all combat prof. A couple lower end weapons for novice level and much better weapons at the higher end.
Mobs as well where much lower in CL and Ham. also damage output was much lower during beta. They had an idea where they wanted to put it, but really didnt get it set until the last week. (at least on Live Beta servers)
That where I think Creatures didnt get tested properly. Beta 3 should of been as close to launch stats as possible so it could of been tested. (Opps, an oversight maybe?)
But the change with launch was because of a huge outcry from the beta testers about weapon certs being so high in the tree (elite trees) I guess most only had skills in the marksmen line at the time. So do to popular demand they moved most weapons certs to Marksmen tree. or Brawler.
After months of data, and the player base stating that lower end is to hard and high end is still to easy. They decided to revisit some of their original ideas and see how they can adjust combat to make the lower end a bit easier and the higher end more chalenging.
This is why the combat system is being revamped. If they took away the markmen certs now and moved them up, There would be a HUGE outcry again so they are making better weapons. AKA Advanced FWG5s and DX2s and the like. That will also give Weaponsmiths more weapons they can make. Might also give Armorsmith more armor to make as well. This might also tie in with elite elite profesions? (thats just a guess)
I hope this helps understand whats happening, Of course this is just in My opinion and could be wrong. But from the sidelines where I sit. this looks to be what is happening. And I am looking forward to it.
I personally think there should be a salary. For both factions. But different for both factions. I think the salary should be in credits and in faction points. The salary should be based on a few things. It should be based on overt/covert status and enemies killed/ missions completed and finally rank. Each combination would be worth a different amount of points and credits(for example an enemy kill while covert isn't worth as much as when overt same goes for missions completed, or an npc kill isn't as important as a player kill).
How often the salary is payed i dont know cause that the devs can decide on.
Now the salaries for the two faction should differ in types of pay. The empire is full of money and full of people. sooo. An individual is less important than the whole. Therefore the imperial salary should be more based on credits than it is based on faction points. Now the rebel Alliance on the other hand doesn't have that much money but has alot of brave men(and women). So for the rebels Salary should be based more on faction points than credits. Both sides should get faction and credits for a salary the only difference is how much of each. I believe this system is a good one because it follows up on the themes of both sides strengths and weaknesses.
One more side note. The salary system in my opinion was meant to be based on a system added onto the current one. Not one that replaces the current one. Meaning i think the faction missions need to remain the same in style of pay and faction points. The salary is just something i think that needs to be added onto that.
And in turn you might wonder that would mean too many imperials would have too much money and too many rebels would have too much faction points. well there are ways to balance that (increase faction perk prices along with credit prices to traveling the galaxy paying your houses maintenance and so on). For the nuetrals this may be hard on the pocket but in the time of the movies i dont think there really were many nuetrals. This encourages one to join a side.
And faction pets should have more uses then they currently have. For examplemedics should really focus on healing and not fighting(at least having the healing factor being more important than the fighting factor). They basically need to be more useful then they are right now.
I know this was a really long post and most prolly wont read it but thats really whatI think should be done with this Galactic Civil War. Well one of the things at least.
aries_liak wrote:
You have built a game where the only ability to compete with another person is to spend your time grinding out 3 primary professions. TKA, pistoleer, fencer. Once that combo is achieved a player can compete on par with his other fellow players in combat with one another.
It's too bad that people have only discovered ONE possible combination of combat professions for power gaming. First, there are roles to be played. The one you have mentioned is called a tank. Use your fists or knucklers with this combo and you'll lose your sacred dodging ability, as it is weapon-specific (to pistols and 1H swords), so the TKA is only for the melee/ranged defenses. Pistols and swords don't do close to the damage (at a time or per second on average) as most other weapons classes, hence the tank role: this person is there to "take" damage (to distract the offense), so that damage-dealing classes, like commandos, can get their attacks in without having to get killed (since they can't take much damage, without crap for defense abilities). Since the tank is redundant with creatures, this class combo is superfluous, and thereby ineffective. Too bad you haven't thought of that. MCHs spend far less SP for several tanks, and they can add to that their own offensive abilities.
This is not to mention that the "dodge combo," created by stacking pistoleer and fencer dodge bonuses, is erroneously seen as unfairly "uber." Carbineer and Swordsman counterattacks stack just as well, as do rifleman/pikeman blocks. They are all the same in effect. Still, this is a tanking combo, which is unnecessary because of CHs.
The problem here is that everyone **edit** about what one combat class can do, and yet they can't. And everyone thinks that the ability they don't have is the better one. Watch as those people switch over, only to complain that a third class has an ability they don't have, which is, again, seen as better. You're all a bunch of whiney 5-year-olds who want whatever the other kids are playing with. Until you have it.
I have played every class in the game except for image designer, musician (thought it redundant with dancer), chef, and politician. I have enjoyed them all in their own right. I probably enjoy my high-damage commando/TKA character the best in combat, although he dies MUCH faster than my low-damage dodge-tank character. The dodge-tank can whine all day that they should be able to do the damage the commando/TKA can do ("I spent just as many skill points!"), and the commando/TKA could whine all day that they should be able to stay alive like the dodge-tank. The two should group, as far as I'm concerned, and utilize each others' talents in complement. If they want to solo, however, they should choose whichever they want. You can't have everything.
As far as the grind goes... welcome to another MMO! If you can't manage to have fun, you're being a powergamer. Fine by me if that's what you want to be, but don't complain about the natural consequences. For non power-gamers, there's richness in conversation at the med centers and starports. There's beauty in the diverse landscapes of the many planets. There's fun in duelling your buddies or participating in player-made events. I am, myself, a powergamer, but I manage to enjoy the downtime when I can, and try not to be too impatient. I don't have to be able to kill anyone and everyone that challenges me... Think of real-life martial artists and combatants. To be good at what they do, they had to grind. A LOT! I'm sure Chuck Norris put in a TON of work, most of it far from enjoyable. But your average black belt can pack a punch, and can have a life, too. It's up to you which you want to be.
Don't blame the devs!
As i work my way to jedi i see NOTHING in this about them. If you just read what the jedi say now and tell us if your fixing things that would be a big help.
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As far as the grind goes... welcome to another MMO! If you can't manage to have fun, you're being a powergamer. Fine by me if that's what you want to be, but don't complain about the natural consequences.
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Grind being fun? Sigh...Been playing RpG's for more then 20 years, ever since the first Atari platform and the old Commondore. I don't think you youngsters know what I am talking about. Granted, gaining exp (Grind) is an integral part of almost every game i played, with the exeption of games like Mist.
The most fun I ever had was when gaining exp was linked to reaching a certain goal. Example. I was travelling to a certain location and in travelling clubbered the monsters and gained the exp. See! The goal was not grinding exp. The goal was reaching a certain location. An other example: There was a difficult task to be acomplished. Well, you just can not walk into the bosses hut and spit at the beast, you have to have the right equipment and skill to do so. Grinding exp...NO! The Goal was to get the Boss. Exp came along as I collected what I needed to do so.
I could give you a dozend more examples but they all point to the same. Grinding exp for the sake of grinding exp is a game killer. What purpose is there in performing the same action manually over and over again if there is no valid reason (in the players mind) for doing so. And this is where Star Wars Galaxies falls short for me. To much grinding exp with to little reason for doing it. Ok, you grinded your way to producing Speeders and Droids and Weapons. WHAT THEN! There is nothing after that! You are producing Speeders and Droids and Weapons. Yea, if this is what you wish of a game good on you, continue.
Well, if i just could use a little of this and a little of that and something else and produce that.... very special unique item, a one 'of the shelf' collectors item, that would be a goal. What about if I couldhave the ability to poducethe fastest, weapon droid there was. Now even better..what if i could be at the same time a resonable fighter and could use this Droid to be by my side. You say I can? Don't make me laugh. Just see how many skill points are left for a fighter profession after you have mastered two artisan professions.
Star Wars Galaxies is headed for a lot of Elite professions which in the end, by themselves, just produceemptiness.and ifI give one Elite profession up for an other ...the same will happen over and over again. I did like Diablo2. There I had the oportunity to mix the skill trees into something I liked and so build a very special Character with attibutes that I thought useful. Can not do that in Star Wars Galaxies. Since it is called (dabbling) and is not 'ELITE' Well, as far as I am concerned the Elite professions are killing the game.
Had a BH running through Coronet the other day screaming "duel me, duel me! I wanna die!" This guy had mastered BH and was bored out of his brain. Ok, you are Master Dancer! WHAT THEN! EMPTINESS! Spending countless hours in the Cantina chatting to pleople who are AFK. So much for social interaction!
Well, maybe it is just me after all. Been a RpG player for more then twenty year. I like a good plot and story line (not found anywhere in SWG) Got bored of PvP, played to much DoD and other first action shooters. Got the slower Comp..bad luck. Bang! You are dead. Got the faster Comp and better connection. Bang! Kill everyone and be the Big Hero. Problem is that after a few weeks you don't care to being the big Hero anymore. It all ends in bordom.
What I wish of SWG is:
Get rid of Elite Professions only and allow the mingling of professions. (Meaning, there need to be either better items at lower levels or more skill points).
Get all of the hundreds of little go and fetch Pluto (it is a Dog) missions and form them into decent quests with decent Story Plots.
Get rid of the endless repetitive manual production of things to gain exp points. Substitude it by allowing and challenging the player to develop a skillfull mixture of various skill froma variety skill trees. This would shift the view from gaining exp to developing true skills. THERE IS NO SKILL IN GRINDING EXP. THERE IS EVEN LESS SKILL IN REACHING THE TOP, PRESS A KEY AND SEE YOUR CHAR BLOW EVERYONE ELSE TO THE GALAXY. IT IS FUTILITY!
Tell
For non power-gamers, there's richness in conversation at the med centers and starports. There's beauty in the diverse landscapes of the many planets. There's fun in duelling your buddies or participating in player-made events. I am, myself, a powergamer, but I manage to enjoy the downtime when I can, and try not to be too impatient. I don't have to be able to kill anyone and everyone that challenges me... Think of real-life martial artists and combatants. To be good at what they do, they had to grind. A LOT! I'm sure Chuck Norris put in a TON of work, most of it far from enjoyable. But your average black belt can pack a punch, and can have a life, too. It's up to you which you want to be.
Don't blame the devs!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as the grind goes... welcome to another MMO! If you can't manage to have fun, you're being a powergamer. Fine by me if that's what you want to be, but don't complain about the natural consequences.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grind being fun? Sigh...Been playing RpG's for more then 20 years, ever since the first Atari platform and the old Commondore. I don't think you youngsters know what I am talking about. Granted, gaining exp (Grind) is an integral part of almost every gameI played, with the exeption of games like Mist.
The most fun I ever had was when gaining exp was linked to reaching a certain goal. Example. I was travelling to a certain location and in travelling clubbered the monsters and gained the exp. See! The goal was not grinding exp. The goal was reaching a certain location. An other example: There was a difficult task to be acomplished. Well, you just can not walk into the bosses hut and spit at the beast, you have to have the right equipment and skill to do so. Grinding exp...NO! The Goal was to get the Boss. Exp came along as I collected what I needed to do so.
I could give you a dozend more examples but they all point to the same. Grinding exp for the sake of grinding exp is a game killer. What purpose is there in performing the same action manually over and over again if there is no valid reason (in the players mind) for doing so. And this is where Star Wars Galaxies falls short for me. To much grinding exp with to little reason for doing it. Ok, you grinded your way to producing Speeders and Droids and Weapons. WHAT THEN! There is nothing after that! You are producing Speeders and Droids and Weapons. Yea, if this is what you wish of a game good on you, continue.
Well, ifI just could use a little of this and a little of that and something else and produce that.... very special unique item, a one 'of the shelf' collectors item, that would be a goal. What about if I couldhave the ability to poducethe fastest, weapon droid there was. Now even better..what if i could be at the same time a resonable fighter and could use this Droid to be by my side. You say I can? Don't make me laugh. Just see how many skill points are left for a fighter profession after you have mastered two artisan professions.
Star Wars Galaxies is headed for a lot of Elite professions which in the end, by themselves, just produceemptiness.and ifI give one Elite profession up for an other ...the same will happen over and over again. I did like Diablo2. There I had the oportunity to mix the skill trees into something I liked and so build a very special Character with attibutes that I thought useful. Can not do that in Star Wars Galaxies. Since it is called (dabbling) and is not 'ELITE', and since there are no decent skills at lower levels. Well, as far as I am concerned the Elite professions are killing the game. That is why they are being nerfed, ahem, being reviewed andreduced in power.
Had a BH running through Coronet the other day screaming "duel me, duel me! I wanna die!" This guy had mastered BH and was bored out of his brain. Ok, you are Master Dancer! WHAT THEN! EMPTINESS! Spending countless hours in the Cantina chatting to pleople who are AFK. So much for social interaction!
Well, maybe it is just me after all. Been a RpG player for more then twenty year. I like a good plot and story line (not found anywhere in SWG) Got bored of PvP, played to much DoD and other first action shooters. Got the slower Comp..bad luck. Bang! You are dead. Got the faster Comp and better connection. Bang! Kill everyone and be the Big Hero. Problem is that after a few weeks you don't care to being the big Hero anymore. It all ends in bordom.
What I wish of SWG is:
Get rid of Elite Professions only and allow the mingling of professions. (Meaning, there need to be either better items at lower levels or more skill points to learn more professions).
Get all of the hundreds of little go and fetch Pluto (it is a Dog) missions and form them into decent quests with decent Story Plots.
Get rid of the endless repetitive manual production of things to gain exp points. Substitude it by allowing and challenging the player to develop a skillfull mixture of various skills froma variety skill trees. This would shift the view from gaining exp through grinding to developing true skills. THERE IS NO SKILL IN GRINDING EXP. THERE IS EVEN LESS SKILL IN REACHING THE TOP, PRESS A KEY AND SEE YOUR CHAR BLOW EVERYONE ELSE TO THE GALAXY BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE BETTER COMP AND FASTER CONNECTION. IT IS FUTILITY!
Tell me, where is the sense of Adventure? Where is the satisfaction of having produces, or found this special item? Where is the boast of having finished a quest which has taken three month to complete?
Badges for zipping past a place on a Speeder? You must be Kidding!
Don't blame the devs! Nope, blame yourself if the Game falls flat.
Demand a much better Game then the one that is offered now.