Development Cycle Archive

*insert groan*

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Cyprus301 wrote:
Looks better than the design on the page listed below... well.. maybe not, but i think it looks great!

http://www.imagedump.com/pics/54713.jpg

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Darkagent101 wrote:

Their uniqueness comes not from their 'traditional' and 'natural' technology, but from their good blend of 'traditional' and 'modern'.

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Solo4114 wrote:

Why is everything wookiee so bulky and clunky? Wookiees, while large, are pretty agile, especially in their native environment. They're arboreal creatures, which implies a certain degree of agility and dexterity. Armor like what's been designed is counter-intuitive to the basic purposes that you'd expect.

The first set of wookiee armor looked fairly clunky as well, and didn't look terribly effective. This second set has more problems.

Here's some critiques for you and things to keep in mind in designing armor for wookiees.

1.) On the first concept set -- the arms appear relatively flexible and well protected. That's good. The legs, however, do not. Essnetially, the leg armor amounts to decorative knee pads and little more. What good will that do you if some predator comes slashing for your legs? The single-piece rigid breastplate is counter-intuitive and poor design. A wookiee needs to be able to move quickly and with agility. A single solid breastplate (even one with cross bands on it) runs counter to this notion. How is the wookiee supposed to bend at the waist? How is the wookiee supposed to twist his torso? The helm also leaves something to be desired. While relatively protective, and with an open face, the wearer's peripheral vision is obscured by the overhanging lip of the top portion of the helm. Additionally, the collar piece and how it interacts with the helm would restrict head movement, thereby further limiting visibility. Combined with the torso's problems, you've got a set of armor that effectively locks the wookiee into looking forward only, or with, perhaps, a 60 degree full range of vision in front of him (assuming, say, a little bit of give with the torso twist to increase the visual field).

2.) the second set of concept armor is both better and worse than the first. The body piece appears somewhat better constructed, and appears to consiste of horizontal bands to allow waist flexibility. That's good. The criss-crossing straps, however, may restrict this movement, as well as torso-twisting movement. The arms appear somewhat better protected in this model, but movement appears somewhat more restricted. Specifically, the shoulder pieces appear a bit rigid and will restrict lifting the arms straight out in to the sides or straight out in front. Vertical movement of the arms is especially important for a wookiee who will likely want to rely on their reach and significant upper body strength (climbing trees keeps you in good shape) in combat. Again, the leg armor appears scant. While it protects the flanks of the legs on the thighs, the shins and feet are completely exposed. The inner thighs and front and back of the thighs also seem underprotected. Additionally, both the forearms and the knees appear to have random little doo-dads sticking out of them. If these are just feathers for decoration, there's no problem. But if they're metal or bone or some other hard material, those protrusions can get stock on something and be problematic in combat. Finally, there's the helm. Hooboy...this one's a doozy. What is with the huge horns?? What purpose do they serve? How could this POSSIBLY help the wookiee in combat? If anything, they will likely limit the wookiee's range of motion. On the wookiee's right-hand side, the horn appears to collide with the shoulder armor. On the left-hand side, I can't tell for certain, but regardless, the things stick out so far that it'll likely smack into SOMETHING while the wookiee is moving around. This would also unnecessarily weigh the head down and, even if your range of motion wasn't SEVERELY restricted by this monstrosity, you'd needlessly tire your neck out. Given that the helm is a closed-face helm with limited peripheral vision, you're really hamstringing the wookiee here. And I know, some folks are going to say, "Yeah, but you can gore someone with those things!" No you can't. How would you possibly maneuver yourself properly to do this? And regardless, the game mechanics won't let you. It may look vaguely fearsome, but it doesn't serve any functional purpose, and it probably will be more of a hinderance in combat.

Finally, I'm sorry, but aesthetically, both of these suits are just...ugly. They look clumsy, hastily put together, and poorly thought out in terms of functionality. Ceremonial aspects of armor may not help functionality any, but they shouldn't HINDER it. I know the wookiees use natural materials in construction, but honestly, they're not bloody savages. They're quite technologically proficient. The armor designs we've seen thus far don't exemplify a culture that would've created a weapon like the bowcaster, a fairly sophisticated item. If the wookiees were using clubs and wooden spears, yeah, maybe I could see this armor coming into play. But you're making them come across as more like ewoks than wookiees.

It's possible to design good looking, functional armor that is derived from natural items, but doesn't look like it was cobbled together by a peasant from the dark ages. As others have said, I'm glad I'm not a wookiee.

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I disagree entirely (except for one point which I'll get to later). Your criticism of the armor seems to be based on a poor understanding of armor concepts and of a lack of analysis of the actual armor as it finally appears.The ceremonial armor is extremely flexible, as it consists of hard plates covering a soft, flexible undershirt. The fact that the breastplate is rigid is meaningless - a persons chest doesn't flex or twist in the first place. I would hazard a guess that you are in the school of thought that thinks that medieval knights couldn't stand up again once they had been knocked off their horses. Actually, it is remarkably flexibly and it possible to do gymnastic manouvers in full european plate armor, including cartwheels. The differences between samurai armor and european plate have far more to do with the materials available and the weapons it was designed to protect against than in the stereotypical (and incorrect) view that samurai armor was amazingly flexible and plate made you slow as a turtle. The wookie armor shows elements of both styles and therefore it is entirely reasonable to assume that is would retain the flexibilty of both.

On the second set of armorit is actuallymade of at least 4 horizontal plates that cover the central chest region but are largely hidden by the crossed bandolier. This would provide extremely good flexibility (at the expense of some protection), especially to bending and arching motions that would be critical for a largely arboreal species. The 'criss-crossing' straps are simply a bandolier over the top and would in no way restrict movement. On the shoulder plates, these are of european plate in style and would be attached at the top edge only, allowing the wearing full range of movement without restriction, but providing excellent protection if the wearer closes down, lowering his arms and hiding the armor joints. Again, the legs are not a target while hunting wild animals as these will go for the head first, arms second (since the srms generally are out in front, usually holding whatever weapon is being used to attack that same creature). Except when hunting a prey species that is running away, legs are simply not a target for wild creatures. Wookies are neither a prey species nor are they going to be running away, so the creature is not going to attack the legs and armor there is unnecessary weight. Wookie armor, particularly these first two pieces, has clearly been developed in order to protect them while hunting animals as they are themselves a peaceful and non-warring culture from everything I have read about them. This alone more than explains why the legs are left relatively unprotected, as in fighting against a wild creature it would be most likely to attack your arms and head, and extremely unlikely to attack your legs.

This is where I agree with your one point, about the huge horns on the second set- these, while I think very cool looking - are entirely impractical and would only serve to get the wookie's neck broken in a melee (grab end of horn, pull down hard, leverage beats muscle every day of the week). While the armor is again intended for hunting animals (and the horns may serve a purpose on that score in protecting the wookie's face and throat)any wookie intending the use this type of armor for more general purposes would be wise to take a saw to the long horns near the base - perhaps the armorsmith would be given the option to do exactly that during construction, make the helm with sawn-off horns for 'real' combat.

As someone that has worn both samurai style and european plate armors, I can assure you that the old movie references aboutplate armorare totally false. I was able to go through a fullrange of motion in the latter, including diving rolls. It was certainly a bit heavier than the japanese armor (which I wasn't allowed to roll around the ground in, funnily enough) and it was tiring, but I was also nowhere near as fit as a medieval night would have been.

You are more than entitled to whatever opinion you have on the look of the armor. Personally I think it is excellent and prefer it greatly over the non-wookie armor currently in game. I am very interested to see what the third set looks like, to see if the wookies address the issue of leg armor. I suspect they won't for gameplay balance reasons, to offset the HAM bonus they have, in much the same way that trands cannot wear gloves and boots as penalty for their slightly higher HAM numbers. But the wookies havea logical cultural background for their armor to look it does, at least to me.

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Solo4114 wrote:

Why is everything wookiee so bulky and clunky? Wookiees, while large, are pretty agile, especially in their native environment. They're arboreal creatures, which implies a certain degree of agility and dexterity. Armor like what's been designed is counter-intuitive to the basic purposes that you'd expect.

The first set of wookiee armor looked fairly clunky as well, and didn't look terribly effective. This second set has more problems.

Here's some critiques for you and things to keep in mind in designing armor for wookiees.

1.) On the first concept set -- the arms appear relatively flexible and well protected. That's good. The legs, however, do not. Essnetially, the leg armor amounts to decorative knee pads and little more. What good will that do you if some predator comes slashing for your legs? The single-piece rigid breastplate is counter-intuitive and poor design. A wookiee needs to be able to move quickly and with agility. A single solid breastplate (even one with cross bands on it) runs counter to this notion. How is the wookiee supposed to bend at the waist? How is the wookiee supposed to twist his torso? The helm also leaves something to be desired. While relatively protective, and with an open face, the wearer's peripheral vision is obscured by the overhanging lip of the top portion of the helm. Additionally, the collar piece and how it interacts with the helm would restrict head movement, thereby further limiting visibility. Combined with the torso's problems, you've got a set of armor that effectively locks the wookiee into looking forward only, or with, perhaps, a 60 degree full range of vision in front of him (assuming, say, a little bit of give with the torso twist to increase the visual field).

2.) the second set of concept armor is both better and worse than the first. The body piece appears somewhat better constructed, and appears to consiste of horizontal bands to allow waist flexibility. That's good. The criss-crossing straps, however, may restrict this movement, as well as torso-twisting movement. The arms appear somewhat better protected in this model, but movement appears somewhat more restricted. Specifically, the shoulder pieces appear a bit rigid and will restrict lifting the arms straight out in to the sides or straight out in front. Vertical movement of the arms is especially important for a wookiee who will likely want to rely on their reach and significant upper body strength (climbing trees keeps you in good shape) in combat. Again, the leg armor appears scant. While it protects the flanks of the legs on the thighs, the shins and feet are completely exposed. The inner thighs and front and back of the thighs also seem underprotected. Additionally, both the forearms and the knees appear to have random little doo-dads sticking out of them. If these are just feathers for decoration, there's no problem. But if they're metal or bone or some other hard material, those protrusions can get stock on something and be problematic in combat. Finally, there's the helm. Hooboy...this one's a doozy. What is with the huge horns?? What purpose do they serve? How could this POSSIBLY help the wookiee in combat? If anything, they will likely limit the wookiee's range of motion. On the wookiee's right-hand side, the horn appears to collide with the shoulder armor. On the left-hand side, I can't tell for certain, but regardless, the things stick out so far that it'll likely smack into SOMETHING while the wookiee is moving around. This would also unnecessarily weigh the head down and, even if your range of motion wasn't SEVERELY restricted by this monstrosity, you'd needlessly tire your neck out. Given that the helm is a closed-face helm with limited peripheral vision, you're really hamstringing the wookiee here. And I know, some folks are going to say, "Yeah, but you can gore someone with those things!" No you can't. How would you possibly maneuver yourself properly to do this? And regardless, the game mechanics won't let you. It may look vaguely fearsome, but it doesn't serve any functional purpose, and it probably will be more of a hinderance in combat.

Finally, I'm sorry, but aesthetically, both of these suits are just...ugly. They look clumsy, hastily put together, and poorly thought out in terms of functionality. Ceremonial aspects of armor may not help functionality any, but they shouldn't HINDER it. I know the wookiees use natural materials in construction, but honestly, they're not bloody savages. They're quite technologically proficient. The armor designs we've seen thus far don't exemplify a culture that would've created a weapon like the bowcaster, a fairly sophisticated item. If the wookiees were using clubs and wooden spears, yeah, maybe I could see this armor coming into play. But you're making them come across as more like ewoks than wookiees.

It's possible to design good looking, functional armor that is derived from natural items, but doesn't look like it was cobbled together by a peasant from the dark ages. As others have said, I'm glad I'm not a wookiee.

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I disagree entirely (except for one point which I'll get to later). Your criticism of the armor seems to be based on a poor understanding of armor concepts and of a lack of analysis of the actual armor as it finally appears.The ceremonial armor is extremely flexible, as it consists of hard plates covering a soft, flexible undershirt. The fact that the breastplate is rigid is meaningless - a persons chest doesn't flex or twist in the first place. I would hazard a guess that you are in the school of thought that thinks that medieval knights couldn't stand up again once they had been knocked off their horses. Actually, it is remarkably flexibly and it possible to do gymnastic manouvers in full european plate armor, including cartwheels. The differences between samurai armor and european plate have far more to do with the materials available and the weapons it was designed to protect against than in the stereotypical (and incorrect) view that samurai armor was amazingly flexible and plate made you slow as a turtle. The wookie armor shows elements of both styles and therefore it is entirely reasonable to assume that is would retain the flexibilty of both.

On the second set of armorit is actuallymade of at least 4 horizontal plates that cover the central chest region but are largely hidden by the crossed bandolier. This would provide extremely good flexibility (at the expense of some protection), especially to bending and arching motions that would be critical for a largely arboreal species. The 'criss-crossing' straps are simply a bandolier over the top and would in no way restrict movement. On the shoulder plates, these are of european plate in style and would be attached at the top edge only, allowing the wearing full range of movement without restriction, but providing excellent protection if the wearer closes down, lowering his arms and hiding the armor joints. Again, the legs are not a target while hunting wild animals as these will go for the head first, arms second (since the srms generally are out in front, usually holding whatever weapon is being used to attack that same creature). Except when hunting a prey species that is running away, legs are simply not a target for wild creatures. Wookies are neither a prey species nor are they going to be running away, so the creature is not going to attack the legs and armor there is unnecessary weight. Wookie armor, particularly these first two pieces, has clearly been developed in order to protect them while hunting animals as they are themselves a peaceful and non-warring culture from everything I have read about them. This alone more than explains why the legs are left relatively unprotected, as in fighting against a wild creature it would be most likely to attack your arms and head, and extremely unlikely to attack your legs.

This is where I agree with your one point, about the huge horns on the second set- these, while I think very cool looking - are entirely impractical and would only serve to get the wookie's neck broken in a melee (grab end of horn, pull down hard, leverage beats muscle every day of the week). While the armor is again intended for hunting animals (and the horns may serve a purpose on that score in protecting the wookie's face and throat)any wookie intending the use this type of armor for more general purposes would be wise to take a saw to the long horns near the base - perhaps the armorsmith would be given the option to do exactly that during construction, make the helm with sawn-off horns for 'real' combat.

As someone that has worn both samurai style and european plate armors, I can assure you that the old movie references aboutplate armorare totally false. I was able to go through a fullrange of motion in the latter, including diving rolls. It was certainly a bit heavier than the japanese armor (which I wasn't allowed to roll around the ground in, funnily enough) and it was tiring, but I was also nowhere near as fit as a medieval night would have been.

You are more than entitled to whatever opinion you have on the look of the armor. Personally I think it is excellent and prefer it greatly over the non-wookie armor currently in game. I am very interested to see what the third set looks like, to see if the wookies address the issue of leg armor. I suspect they won't for gameplay balance reasons, to offset the HAM bonus they have, in much the same way that trands cannot wear gloves and boots as penalty for their slightly higher HAM numbers. But the wookies havea logical cultural background for their armor to look it does, at least to me.

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Faded_One wrote:
Will there be only one Wookie Armor or will we have a few different looks to choose from?

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