CUEmu - Thread Posts

Tunturi

Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:12 pm

Yec, you hit the nail on the head when you said people will not excpet anything but the best. This holds true in any profession, and I believe is one of the problems with the game. It is so easy for everyone to grind to master, that master items have flooded the game. Nobody wants any armor below Composite, even the noobs. I've noticed guys who have only played for a few weeks wearing composite and sporting high damage weapons. It's gotten to the point now that you can't sell anything unless its a top tier item with maxed stats. Now this problem is forcing all crafters to make perfect items in order to compete and stay in business. Due to this pressure to make the perfect item to sell, the failures hurt more. Even tho in my opinion the failure rate has not changed since day one. I think it should be left alone. Only thing I would suggest is maybe on the rare items(i.e. RIS Armor segments)that the failure rate be removed or reduced to like 1% to help compesate for how hard they are to get.

One thing the development group did right was make the new schematics from the theme parks require rare and hard to find loot. This forces us crafters who are usally fairly wealthy to pay warriors to get us these items. I feel this should of been the case with most of the Master Items to begin with. By doing this it keeps the market from being flooded with the items and making thelower tier items or items with lower quality absoulete.

Xutu

Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:49 am

#574

Even masters make mistakes. After all they are on Mon Cal/Wookie?human et al.

Atuw of Chimaera
Master Weaponsmith/Master Artisan
Starfire Industries - Tatooine
Nullas Anxietas

Kelliannaenwyl

Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:10 pm

#575

Chrys and TH im burried back on page 25,26 but here goes

Assembly attempts: 1448
Assembly critical failures: 65
Assembly critical failure rate: 4.49%

Experimentation attempts: 1284
Experimentation critical failures: 54
Experimentation critical failure rate: 4.21%

first off was this a master or a novice? and were the experimental per point or for a run of 10(ie master)

we recieve assembly points as we advance up the tree as well as experimental points wouldnt a simple mathimatical equasion similar to 2/AP (where AP is assembly points) give you a straight line success based on level of skill with novices haveing a 10% failure rate and masters having a 2%failure rate? sounds bad but i havent worked in a math heavy feild in 13yrs but makes my point that success rates sould improve with skill rather then be consistent?

experimentation a 4.21% doesnt sound bad but shouldnt that read as a 0.421% rate for a master instead? if the based crit fail rate is 4.21% *10 experimental points (at master) thats a critfail of 42.1% while at novice it is only 4.21-8.41 depending on the #of experimental points you gain at novice these numbers are way out of line again the straightline math equation isnt nessicarily (sp?) the answer but is a point to start from to help make the coding easier and the players happy

here is another angle on the equation 2/AP+GMAP where GMAP is either general OR medical assembly points thus giving a novice doc or CM a better assembly rate then they have now and a WS with both eng and domarts a better success rate of assembly then just one with eng its all crafting afterall you get a feel for how things are supposed to go together

here is yet another angle on the equation 2/AP(SB/X) where SB is the Skill Boxes in profession divided byX but with a minimum value of 1 so not just the AP you have but how 'long' you have been a crafter affects how well you assemble an item

here is the final kicker and is a combination of the previous equations 2/AP(SB/X)+GMAP thus a master artisan master WS gains the greatest assembly success rate with out tapes this equation will work for experimentation as well just replace AP with EP*10 (experimental points) thus increasing the success rate of experimentations the *10 multiplier is there to keep the success rate INLINE with assembly becase a master experiments 10 times as often as he assembles

like i said the basic math is sound grab a calc and tri it but it DOES need fine tuning but is a sound starting point

dyf

Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:36 pm

#576

Im a Master Architect and Master artisan and your statement that we dont hve CFs on

final assembly is full of crap. I have lost tons of materials on CFs so if your not a MAch.

You dont know what your talking about.

Wokka

Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:43 pm

#577

Ok I noticed something that I really haven't seen addressed. I get more failures than what most people are experiencing. There are times I will get 3 crit fails out of 4 tries. That's really really bad. I figured there was something different I was doing. Well I'm on a 26.4 dialup connection so I get high ping times and high packet loss when there are more people around. My crit fails happen most and back to back in larger populated areas, so I craft out in the middle of nowhere, and not on a zone line. When I do this, my odds are more even to the rest of the faster connection people.

These are things I've noticed:

1) if I do the combine during packet loss, it will most likely crit fail.

2) if I am quick to hit the combine *right* after loading the resources, it will most likely crit fail.

3) my odds of crafting as well as everyone else, depends on me waiting after loading the resources (about 10 secs) and crafting in a secluded area where my ping times are 500 or below.

4) when I tried crafting at the Geonosian cave, every attempt was a crit fail. My actions are all 2 minutes behind because of the massive information sent to the client at this location.

5) a slow dialup connection is really bad and probably not supported, but it is all I can get secluded high in the rocky mountains. (but the rest of the game is just fine, and I love it)

In conclusion, I don't think the numbers or formulas are the problem, I think network traffic is causing the higher crit fails. Put your developers on a slow dialup and you'll see what I mean.

Wokka-wokka

Khirgoth

Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:36 am

#578

Here are my issues.

1. I see that a change has been made so that master crafters should have a lower chance of a critical failure.

2. How much will that affect the failure rate?

3. How do the effectiveness ratings of my crafting station and my tool affect this chance?

I have a 42+ functionality rating on my crafting station and my tool is 14.94. I am a Master Weaponsmith, Master Armorsmith, Master Artisan and the rest is in merchant. All I do is craft and sell the things I make. I can barely kill a durni.

This critical failure thing is a huge issue for me especially when I have the best tool that can bemade and a very high quality crafting station. In my opinion, with the consideration of these factors, my chance to have a critical failure should be nil. Also my chance to have an amazing success should be higher but I can't see a difference between my high quality tools and using a cheap tool at a public crafting station.

my 2 credits,

Khirgoth

lund0529

Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:55 am

#579

While the individual chance for a crafting failure may not be any higher for BE than other professions (I do have doubts about that actually), consider the process a BE goes through.

1) Find a suitable creature (time consuming especially for a creature for which you can't get destroy missions)

2) Approach said creature, and risk aggro.

3) Sample the creature, and risk aggro.

4) Often fail and get aggro. If you succeed, you often kill the creature after getting 1/5 of the DNA you need (assuming 1st generation creature)

5) Once you have your 5 DNA, craft a template. First risk of crafting critical failure. If you fail, go back to 1. If stats are not what you need, or the specials don't carry through, go back to 1.

6) Once you have your DNA template, craft a creature. Second risk of crafting critical failure. If you fail, go back to 1. If the HAMs, damage, attack speed are not what you need, go back to 1.

This is just for a first generation creature. Many more of our crafting products involve sampling the creature that was created by the time step 6 is created. These second generation creatures require creating up to five iterations of 1-6 to create the creatures for raw materials. Then we have to go sample each of these creatures, likely destroying them in the process.

If you make it up to your 5 2nd generation samples, then repeat steps 5 and 6. (Then hope the pet doesn't get declared invalid and useless after all that effort). So you can see that even if the chance of a critical fail is the same for any individual craft, we go through so many of them that the 4.49% is additive to a very high chance of failing.

Check my math, but I think this is right...

Excluding experimental failures and poor combines, 1st generation pets have a 4.49% chance of failure on step 5, and a 4.49% chance on 6. So there is approximatelya 9% chance of failing on a first generation pet.

Now go to second generation pets, where there is a 9% chance of failing on each subcomponent, a 4.5% chance on the first combine, and a 4.5% chance on the second combine.

Given 25 DNA samples, there is about a (5*9%) + 4.5% + 4.5% = 54% chance of getting a total failure.

If an artisan based crafter fails, they just grab more units of automated harvested resources and try again. They can also get one good combine and produce a factory spec with 0% rate of failure. OurDNA samplesare all gathered by hand and cannot be used in a factory, as they are all slightly different.

What we really need is access to some sort of factory or harvester that could clone our samples. Put in a DNA sample and maybe some meat or other nutrient source, add power, and create crates of identical DNA samples. Maybe it would work for dnasamples or dna templates? Call it a "Genetic Sequencer" or "Automated Tissue Growth Laboratory"...

Perhaps there should be two different structures?

KnightHawk420

Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:43 pm

#580

Here's a bit of info for everyone. Go home and try this I guarenetee this will reduce your critical and failure rates. This bit of knowledge was well known when the patch that gave tools and craftions stations "ratings", but seems to have been lost over time, but still to this day its true.

But all of you people with the uber tools and uber crafting stations. That is what is screwing you all up.

Simply put to use the best tools +13.99 or whatever.... and the high end crafting stations.... 30' - 40's.... you will critical and fail often.

If you have a nice high end crafting station, get a crap tool. A tool experimented just above the 0 rating. You will have far fewer criticals and failures. If you have great tools, get a crap station. vica versa.

I produce all of my composite armor by hand. Granted I make the all the sub-components with factory, all final combines are by hand. So I get a good feel for my failure rates. I can tell you that for the first 2 weeks, much of the time spent producing armor. I somewhat rarely ever had anything less than 2 great successes in a row with 1 or 2 poitns left over for another line. Nearly every piece of armor I would produce would goe exactly just like this. At the time I was using a 99% experimented tool, and a crafting station with +18 rating.

After those 2 weeks, I went out and got a +40 craftion station. Crafted armor for a week, after that week I was ready to quit the professions outright. Where as before I was getting consistant good results, I started getting consistent bad results. No matter what I did during that week didn't change the fact I was failining and criticalling on armor over 50% of the time. So in my frustration I happened to remember the experiments some artisans did on crafting stations where it was they're statement that at the high end of the crafting tool/station setup critical failures were far more likely. Perhaps even more so if in a scenario using the worst of the worst tools / stations.

To try this theory I had my non-master artisan make me some new tools. +3 ratings.... Haven't had a problem since, immediately went back to producing good armor consistently and back to the failure / critical rate I was used to.

I'm pretty sure droids count as high end stations, but since they dont' have a rating, and since I've never bothered to do a hard test I'm not sure if crafting with droids is also affected, although I suspect it is. I'm not really sure and I won't comment further about droids.

But as it related to tools and stations I"m absolutely sure that if you as crafters go all out and get the best tools and best stations you will end up with the best critical and failure rates in your area. It's a fact.

Cheylin Mena - R.I.P.
Menon Mena - R.I.P.
Hunglo Bavmador - R.I.P.

fantoq

Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:13 am

#581

I'd like to /second on the fact that failures come in waves. It is not 'gambler's fallacy' either. If the odds of failure are 1 in 20, then the odds of back to back failure are 1 in 400. Sure it happens, but I'm seeing it in every crafting session.

As a BE, I don't often see two crit failures in a row on the crafting. But it takes a minute or two to review the DNA you're putting in each slot. But I'd say I'm seeing closer to a 10% failure rate as a whole.

However, on experimentation done a few seconds apart, it is almost routine to see back to back failures. It seems cyclical as if the random generator seed is using something that is ranging through rather than random.

fantoq
MCH
former Medic
App. Carbineer
Society of Interplanetary Mercenaries[SIM]/ stargate/ naboo

Cartersr

Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:22 pm

#582

I'm a Master Doctor. Lately I haven't been able to craft an enhancement to it's full potential. The last bubble is impossible to get. My problem is not with falures themselves, but the inability to craft an enhancement, utilizing my full potential of experimentation points in power.

Let's say I have 8 bubbles in power to experiment on. I can get 7, but never the 8th. This been going on for about 2 weeks now.

Any one else????

Astrodominus

Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:54 am

#583

I can understand why critical failures are a part of the game, and there's nothing wrong with a small element of risk in crafting. Part of the joy in achieving a critical success comes from knowing you've averted a possible critical failure. However, if it's purely random -- what have you really "achieved"? Crafting failures should be very directly linked to skill levels, all-but-disappearing at the Master Level. The notion that one out of every twenty crafting attempts should result in failure is both capricious and unrealistic. Master Crafters should produce far higher quality items with far less frustrating trial-and-error. By the time one reaches Master, they've learned from their past mistakes and failings. A Master doesn't make clumsy slip-ups that utterly destroy a project 5% of the time. Achieving Master Crafter status ought to mean more than justgaining ahandful of new schematics.

MasterGuiJan

Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:51 am

#584

/agreed

_________________________________________

Gui-Jan Itor
Senate President - Avian Technology and Trade
Master Architect
Master Merchant
Master ShipWright
Dark Lord of the Quiche

Bugrunner

Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:48 am

#585

At master Critical Failure should be rare,1 in 100 crafted items anything beyond this is far to high for a master if your using materials with stats that meet specification.

at most at master it should be 1% and only higher if the resouce do not me the min. resouce stat. so if a stat calls out toughness of 50% and your resouce is 505 then the chance of falure is low.

anything above the min shold have very little effect or could offset a stat that is below min.

But if you use a resouces that is below the min.,then you should have a higher chance of failure based, so if you have 3 stats that require 500 or 50% and you have 2 above 500 and one is like 450 then your risk is raise to say 3.4 % at master and much higher if not master, but I do agree that there should be at least a 1% to 2 % chance of failure no matter what you do per finished crafted item.

What ever system that is used should be simple,beciys if you do to much fuzzy logic, then there is a higher chance the that will end up with programming bugs and exploits that take away from the fun of the game and we go back to checkers.

MITHRAL - Master AS, Master Weaponsmith

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Thread: Crafting Critical Failure Rates