Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-6: Combat Roles; Creature Handler
In Massively Multiplayer combat, each profession should have a distinct role. Each role should help define the profession and have a relationship with its abilities in combat. In popular fantasy games, wizards cast ranged spells, warriors are “tanks”, and clerics “heal”. Each archetype has a specific role in combat and
In a science-fiction oriented game, those traditional roles aren’t so clear cut. Most skills and abilities are redundant because of balance issues, which take away from the unique feel of the profession. Many players have stated that they would like to see SWG professions have a more unique feel to them and we would like to know what your thoughts are.
What defines theCreature Handler role in combat?
Creatures most obviously.
That is what the profesion is about for many of us.
We spent a lot of time and effort getting our creatures, taming and training them.
So where would be the point of going into battle without them at our side to help us ?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
The ability to Tank effectivly at Master level. - ( considering the insane req to get to this level I think its more than justified )
Pets used for combat / defense
The ability to actually use the supposed specials that as yet dont really work correctly.
What defensive abilities?
The pets are the Creature handlers defense.
There high HAM and in cases of good pets High Resists make them an ideal Tank for taking the brunt of any damage offered.
Relying purely on this though is quite often likely to end up with a dead CH, as we need to use other Combat profs when the mobs actually agro on the creature handler.
What unique abilities?
Somthing specific for CH to do with mounts ( flying mounts being one example ) would be a unique part of being a CH.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Pets acting as a tankthat will takethe dmg for the group and insure less deaths, asuming the groupies arent stupid enough to continously draw agro, as ive somtimes seen done.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
We shouldnt have to interact with other profs unless we want to.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Personaly I dont think there should be dependencies on other combatants unless your going up against the toughest mobs in the game.
Ask all of your customers in a poll, how many of them want to group.
I will seriously be surprised if you get anywhere near 50% who actually want to waste all their time looking for people to group with.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Ability to find and train very dangerous critters for combat.
Obviously those that want creatures purely for cuteness or rp have that as an option already.
Let me start by saying I, unlike a lot of players out there, do not hate the Devs, nor do I think they have ruined the game with the nerfs. I think the game gets better with each publish and I can see on the horizon, a good game becoming a great game.
My suggestions:
What defines theCreature Handler role in combat?
RIght now? CH on its own is a death sentence. I bought SWG wanting to be a CH, wanting to own a rancor. While I applaude the dev's decision to take away uberpets from non Masters, I was very disappointed to learn that I had to waste the rest of my skillpoints on Commando in order to survive.
This being said, I have no problem with being the "Tank Supplier" in combat, in fact, I enjoy it. BUT, as Im quickly finding out, my TK buddy and my BH buddy dont really even need me anymore! The bad thing is, since I used so many skill points to get MCH, as soon as I reach Commando 0/0/4/0, Im pretty much as powerfull as Im ever going to get. This means I will never be able to enjoy PvP and a lot of the larger targets (Nightsisters, Jedi, etc) will never be within my reach unless Im in a group that really doesnt need me.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
For starters, the previously stated concept of Pets attacking ALL the targets in a group is great. I cant tell you how many times Ive incapped during a big fight, my pet finishes his current target, then stands there over me while the rest of the MOB spanks my teammates! Or the WORST, my pet standing over me looking all mean and rancorish while a rebel NPC strolls up from 30 meters and DBs me! Why wont my pet protect my body??????
What offensive abilities?
Vary the pets, make some offensive only.
Example: Gurrecks. This little cat should deal way more damage than he does, mainly due to his speed. Instead, a level 50 gurreck is a total wuss compared to his also level 50 cousin the rancor.
Give us one whole set of pets that deal mainly in damage, give them half the HAM of another level 50, but double the damage and speed.
What defensive abilities?
Like I said above and others have said before me, we need at least 2 distinct classes of pets. Make a pet like the vicious Huf-Dun a 20K HAM behemoth, but only let him hit for 80-100 really slow.
What unique abilities?
The ability to command pets to guard the group as a whole would be great, especially if the MCH gets incapped during battle.
Let the MCH actually have to plan out the pets used, not just call the biggest meat tank in a given situation. Its really sad that I call the exact same pet for Rebel NPCs as I do for Nightsister Protectors.
Give us the option of using strategy!
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
As I said before, give us the ability to add more to the group dynamic, let my pets guard people grouped with me even if I die and have to run back from the clone center. Its getting to the point where my teammates wont need me in a group much longer as they develop their Elite Combat skills.
Lets not let MCH become a newbie backup class. We want to fight the big stuff too! (not to mention our worthlessness in PvP)
How could/should they interact with other professions?
I try and maintain a good roleplay relationship with various BEs for good pet stims, this should be encouraged. I also think the option of buying armor or adornments for your pet from Tailors/Armorsmiths would be fun, allowing more individual expressions to this class.
The biggest? LET US SELL OUR TAMED PETS ON THE VENDORS! Right now besides the odd tame gig, an MCH has no viable way to interact with other players in a commercial sense. I would love to go into business with a Merchant and open a pet shop, preferably selling parrots (he'd not dead, he's resting).
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Way too dependent on Elite Combat proffessions right now while they in turn dont seem to need us at all. This needs to be balance ASAP.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
The provider and caretaker of exotic animals, whether for combat, defense, or even companion pets.
The MCH should be the ultimate support proffession, in a PvP situation, pets should kill any and all opposing faction members and continue fighting until they incap themselves.
MCH should also have the ability to command their pet to DB all targets during PvP. Its not very immersive when my enraged rancor stops tearing the spleen out of a rebel scumbag just because he went night night. The pets should finish their kills in PvP.
Bizz Nitch
MCH
Novice Medic
Commando 0/0/2/0
Freth wrote:
...Some CH's are happy with their pets being meat shields. Most are not. ...
1. The way people play CH has changed alot over the last 6 months.
Increasingly with each new patch, CH is limited further by the changes in our own profession, and by advancements in other professions.
In the past,to some peopleCH's used to be a "pure" combatclass, a "merchant" class to some, a "role-play" class to some, a "solo" class to some, a "group" class to others, etc etc etc
- There used to be "pure" CH's (with no weapon skills) but that's not viable anymore.
- There used to be "merchant" CH's (who sold pets) but now you can't use a pet that you can't tame (so there'sno need to buy a pet that you can tame yourself, at least not from a CH)
- There used to be "dabbler" CH's who's primary role was some other elite hybrid combat profession.
Some of the ways the people used to play CH in the past aren'tviable anymore.
This will no doubt affect the way that some perceive the "role" of CH.
2. The other professions that people choose to add to their CH profile will affect their viewpoint.
People's visionforCH will certainly be influenced by their other profession.
To some people, CH istheir "primary" profession...
But other people view them selves differently, thinking of their pets as "support" to whatever their "real" profession is.
Some examples:
- If a person's "primary" profession is Melee Artists, then that person may have strong feelings about who the best "tank"should beand those feelings will be reflected in their vision of CH's "role" in the game.
- If a person's "primary" profession is BE, then that person may think differently about the relative strengths and weakness, or availability of (baby) animals, which may reflect in their vision for the "role" of CH in the game.
It seems that most CH's will support themselves with a weapon-based profession added to their profile...
But because people "play" differently, it might be hard to develop a true consensus on the vision for CH.
3. CH'scan choose somewhat howdependant they want to be on other professions.
CH can be intertwined with other professions than most others.
I'mNOT talking aboutone-timepurchasesfrom another profession on the bazaar.
Some examples:
- CH's need maskscent skillmod to help with taming... so we either become a ranger, or look for a ranger to conceal us.
- CH's can't determine the adult level of a (baby) creature when we examine it... so we either become a ranger, or get one to answer our questions (hopefully if one is around).
- CH's can't determine thespecial attacksof a (baby) creature when we examine it... so we either become a ranger, or get one to answer our questions (hopefully if one is around).
Personally, I think it's a failing of the new CH system from the last patch that we can't see CL and special attacks when we examine a creature -More creature knowledge should have been added with the last patch. But until that gets fixed, we're dependant on another profession for "daily" needed skills.
Conversely,
At times, the issue of "inter-dependence" can take an adversarial, rather than cooperative role...
CH's have been the victims of other profession crying "nerf" ever since the game was launched.
The CH profession has been greatly affected by efforts to add value to other professions.
For example:
- There is only 1 profession which makes pistols...
- There is only 1 profession which makes armor...
- There is only 1 profession which makes food...
- But there are TWO sources of pets in this game.
The devs have stated many times that "looted" items would NOT be as good as crafted ones. But the analogy of comparing BE's to "weapon crafters" is a BADanalogy for the following reasons:
A.) pets are not "looted"
While other professions, like Smuggler, are complaining about lack of "content", CH's do not have this problem: because taming pets as some of the most fun "content" in this game.
The devs would be foolish to destroy the content that exist for this profession.
However, by making the most desirable pets available on a vendor, to the lowest level CH's
B.) pets are not "weapons"
Weapons equip in your hand and shoot... Pets on the other hand group with you as companions, let you ride them as mounts and provide you added speed and safety in your travels, will run away when scared, will require food and healing, can be given names, etc.
C.) clones are not mass-produced
Other commodities are mass-produced in a factory to meet the demand.
The complexity and difficulty of making top-tier pets that are comparable to "pre-nerf" tamables has limited the supply of these pets.
However, limited or not, the supply of these pets has taken the "fun" out of taming wild creatures because wild creatures are not nearly as worthwhile as they once were.
Furthermore, the difficulty of the process of making top quality, multi-generational, pets where the BE samples DNA from his own creations over and over to create 2nd and 3rd generation "uber" pets of extremely low level has discouraged many BE's from bothering to fill the demand, because they still have tissues that they can sell for more profit, and less trouble.
How does this affect CH's? - 3rd generation, low-level, "uber" pets are putting MCH-Level power into the hands of "dabblers"and novices all over again.
I digress, but the point is: Rather than creating a system whereby CH's and BE's are in harmony, there is a system in place that creates animosity and discord, causing CH's for a change to be the ones crying "nerf"
The point is, a CH can choose how "dependant" he wants to be on other professions.
Naturally, this may result in everyone having slightly different ideas about what CH should [not]be.
4. Master CH's have a different perspective than Novice CH's and vice versa.
Master CH's and Novice CH's see the profession very differently sometimes.
This has seemed to diminish somewhat since the last patch...
The last patch effectively discouraged "dabbling" in the CH profession to some extent... however, as mentioned before, it is now possible to purchase level 30 pets with as much "tanking" ability from BE's that could only be found in "extinct" level 60 tamed pets.
This has encouraged a new surge in "dabbling" lately, and revitalized the debates between Master and Novice CH's.
What defines the Creature Handler role in combat?
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As a creature handler, I do two things, and two things only. ONE: I tank for ranged support. TWO: More than anyone else in the party, I manage the flow of combat. It's my responsibility to get mobs off of my ranged support, make sure the mobs don't wander too far, and initiate almost all combat. If combat gets out of control, and my party starts getting incapped or (perish the thought!) killed, it's usually me that's screwed up, if I have a good experienced team with me. During combat my attention is divided between making sure my pets have targets and attacking all the way through, and making sure that no one in the party is being mauled by an uncontrolled mob. Novice medic is practically required.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
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Well, the CH class is rather unique in the combat classes since that it is a melee class (controls mob movment) that acts like a ranged class (with little threat to myself, unless I screw up).
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What offensive abilities?
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What defensive abilities?
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Well, we ARE team defense for the most part.
What unique abilities?
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MY NIFTY SUGGESTION FOR THE DAY:
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
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We make meatsheilds. Our damage is nice, but cannot even begin to come close to one or two PC's spamming specials. We make meatshields. This should largely remain unchanged.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
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Well, aside from the whole BE relationship needing a LOT of work, we interact with the combat classes by letting them do what THEY do best, which is blow the bejeezus out of the countryside. I see no reason for this basic relationship to change.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
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Well, as I said, the BE relationship is a little strained now. I myself have a 85K Kimo that I can't tame (with my +25 magic pants) , and won't be wasting anymore money on bugged pets until the BE mess is settled. In an ideal world, the BE and CH class should be symbiotic, and not one supporting the other. We need something to sell BE's besides tons o' meat.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
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Well, we don't have one. Ain't gonna have one, likely. Critters cannot handle PVP, and ain't gonna happen anytime soon without making us silly powerful, which also ain't gonna happen.
- Become a support MCH and spend extra points in a fighting profession other than MCH
OR
I didin't want to repeat everything Cayid presented, but he's got my take down on CH (and I was an MCH for four months) down fairly well, and so I won't waste more bandwidth reiterating what he has already presented quite eloquently.
l33thaxx0rnam3 wrote:
Cayid Cosseris: MCH, Pistoleer, Gorath.
<snip>
(well, that post was botched. My apologies)
- Become a support MCH and spend extra points in a fighting profession other than MCH
Or...
- Become a true CH fighting profession
I for one am not happy just being tank support and using another fighting profession to suppliment what my pets lack. This is a big gripe with me. Creatures should be everything to me, including my protection and damage dealer. I'll gladly give up my fighting profession if you give me full fighting ability with my creatures. I want MCH to be my fighting profession.
Greetings:
Before I start answering your questions, please allow a certain amount of perspective. I do not, and have no intention of either regularly participating in PvP, nor do I have any intention of participating in the GCW. These are roles that I feel enhance my personal game best by being things that other players do. I love my neutrality, and my critters. My play style is completely geared to PvE.
Knowing this, I won't be able to answer all of your questions to your satisfaction. However, I'll do my best.
OK. Ready? Here goes.
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines theCreature Handler role in combat?
The most obvious answer, is, of course, his critters. The CH is the one that can train the crittersso that they can actively help him - or someone else - in any situation that they may be appropriate in. Critters can be companions, a part of role-play, a "meat sheild", a means of dishing out damage, and a generally fun thing.
This question, however, is somewhat limiting. Please see the question about Profession Interaction for more details about further definition of the CH - outside of a combat role.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Since the CH handles critters, that is the basic combat element that they should (and do) possess. The CH should be able to handle critters that would make other people quail at the thought of handling them. Since they spend their points on the ability to tame and train critters, that should be their contribution to combat - namely, bringing critters in to enhance either themselves (when solo) or the group (when grouped).
What offensive abilities?
This is where it starts to get interesting. The offensive ability of the CH should be somewhat governed by the critter he is using, and somewhat governed by his ability to control it. A CH has the ability to control critters to do a lot of the messy fighting for him, after all. The CH should be able to tell his critter(s) EXACTLY how to react to a situation, no matter what the enemy is doing.
This means that the ability to tell the critter to use its specials should be a number one offensive ability for the CH. If he has a critter that is capable of using a strong poison, he should be able to tell his critter to actually use that poison on what target. Period. If his critter can perform a dizzy strike, he should be able to tell his critter to do so. This one ability, if it actually performed as it was advertised, would make the CH a comparably powerful and desired addition to any hunting group.
What defensive abilities?
Again, for the most part, these would depend on the critter involved. However, since the critters in the wild (as well as other players) often go after the CH rather than the critter that is hitting it, a wonderful defensive ability for the CH would be a "defend me to the death" command. This command would enable the CH to call a critter off of whatever was chewing on it to attack the thing chewing on the CH. Hopefully, this would allow the CH a moment to get away far enough to heal up and re-organize his thoughts.
What unique abilities?
The CH is pretty unique in the SWG world, for the most part. He has one thing that truly defines him - the ability to tame and train critters. This should never ever change.
However, to make him even more unique, he should have more fluidity with his ability to tame and train. Currently, all of the available commands are for combat situation (not a bad thing). However, with the advent of vehicles and BE critters, he has been limited to more combat and harvesting, with fewer chances to interact in a more positive manner with other, non-CH players. If other kinds of taming and training could be brought in, then he would be more valuable over all. See the interaction question for more details.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
The CH has the ability to add up to three extra group members to a group. That means that, if his commands were working properly, he could control one to three troops that could add to the group. These troups (when the specials are working right) can be used as extra damage dealers to take out one really big critter, as a living tank to absorb some of the damage that the enemy deals out, or (if the specials are working properly) can be used as the extra bodies needed to handle an enemy that outnumbers the group. Please note, that all of this is dependent on the control abilities working the way they are supposed to.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
I posted a (rather lengthy) reply to the questions thatVertexon was asking about our role in the game. You should read the entire thread (as has been mentioned before) as it offers many solid insights to how we perceive ourselves and where we want to go. It is titled "Know your Role" in the CH discussion forum. Apparently, I'm not allowed to post the link here, though.
However, to answer here, in case you don't get a chance to go there (since you are probably running like the proverbial chicken):
The CH should not be limited to a combat role, but could be used as an interactive and desired enhancement role to other professions. If he had the ability to offer special training to critters (even at a low level so that all CH's would be able to experience it) he would be more desired and welcomed by other players. Imagine being able to train critters for non-combat roles, such as:
- Entertainers that are song bird and bunny types that we can train with four or five different tricks. When grouped with an entertainer, they add a percentage (that increases the closer the entertainer gets to master) to the healing the entertainer provides. Pretty much useless incombat, but a ton of fun to watch (and they might enhance the non-entertainer's general enjoyment of the show in the first place). This would enable us to sell "cute" pets to the stage people, that would give us a small source of income that would enhance their game.
-Scouters that aresmall dog types that can be trained as bloodhound types so that scouts, rangers, and bounty hunters can improve their chances of getting the mark or finding the creatures they are lookiing for.If the player has AreaTrack (Rangers), s/he could actually select the target and the critter would lead him/her to it. If not, the critter would act like a limited area track, sniffing along the ground (with a chance for error) and stopping frequently to pick up the scent again. In fact, this could be hilarious, as if you told your dog to find "herbivore meat" it might lead you to a gorg, which anyone can take out, or to a rhonto, which might pose a couple problems for a novice.*grin* Again, it would enhance the other players game while offering the CH a source of income.
-Protectors that are small armoured bugs that don't do too much damage, but are AR2 that automatically take the aggression, so that artisians will have something to guard them long enough to get away from what's trying to eat them.If the player hits /peace, then the critter takes the aggression completely, giving the artisian type a chance to actually run away from that pesky kreetle. These would, of course, have a limited usage, and would have to have some sort of limit, such as they would only take aggro if their master is NOT engaged in combat.
- Sniffers that would lead medics to a place where their /medicalforage might get them 30 units of whatever, rather than 2 (with limits to the amount of times they could sample that spot). Or, in the same line, "Truffle Pigs" that could lead a chef to a place to find those wonderful mushrooms. The "mushrooms" would be an additive that would enhance the food values even further, to slightly extend the duration of the food, or add some plusses to the enhancements.
- Rescuers that are animals that would be pretty much useless in combat. However, the rescue animal could go into a big fight and pull out an incapped or dead player so s/he would have a chance to actually recover from the incap, or to get an actual revive from the doctor who is staying out of the line of fire, so he doesn't have to take a trip to the clone center.
- Flushers would be animals that go in and tear up the nest some, bringing out ALL of the critters in the nest. They wouldn't actually do any real damage, but would simply bring all the critters out - including the bosses. This could be used by Squad leaders who have created tactics so that their group knows exactly what to do, who encloses the nest in massive pincer movements.
There are probably a million other wonderful ways that we could be used to enhance other people's games in a non-combat role, but you get the idea.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Since the CH would have to be concious to actually command his critters, this leads to a natural dependence on other combatants. They would depend on him to control the crowd with his troops (the critters), and he would depend on them to make sure he survives long enough to actually command the troops properly. If it was all working right, a good group with a CH or two would be a wonderfully deadly force.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Since I have not interest in the GCW, I can't really answer this, other than to say that it should be critter related - obviously.
There you go. If you have taken the time to actually read all of this, thank you. I know that I do get long winded sometimes.
RagnarrSS wrote:
I, for one, was not surprised but am very disappointed at the way vehicles have made mounts all but obsolete. But without the ability to fight on a mount what is the real advantage. It would be especially cool to see some mounted fighting with some of the melee classes, knights and armor type stuff.Add the idea of crowd control for the mounted character, modifing the defense up and the damage down so that theCH and be used to push NPC's or Players. As mentioed earlier, have large pets charge through groups, if not causing damage generating some knock downs. Also a knock down via ramming, ram that Fambaa. Makes more sense than knocking one down with a shot from your trusty pistol or even rifle, I live in the country and have seen farmers herd bulls with shot guns, they will often not even flinch.
I like the thoughts about the damage as opposed to high HAM. In RL, a bob cat or cougar is a relativly small creature and it is not the amount of damage they can take that makes them dangerous, not to even mention some of the bigger cats. Some of the other creatures it would be nice to have more than the peak of 3 pets out in fighting. I visualize a good sized pack of pets with low HAM and damage attacking enmasse, but definetly more than 3, 10 chuba, or low lvl slice hounds,attacking at once and dragging the adversary down. Not necessarliy, doing any more damage than a single high lvl pet, but it would add some variety to them game. If used in PvP, the player would be dealling with multiple fast attackers.
The mention of a rescue pet, for the combat medic is cool.
How about making a beast of burden, tied in with the other classes. Making them good for carrying the more elaborate camps that the rangers use, or restructure inventory spaceon some of the goods so that a pet is needed to carry larger stacks of some of these goods. Or even make groups use the huge creatures as troop carriers, hiding the numbers in the group till the creature is either knocked down or the players dismount, this making a CH good since they would be needed to control the animal. This would only work on the radar, with visual the use of the pet would be evident.
The points on using the pet as a source for other products, milk, eggs for chef or medic profession, or even harvest wool for a tailor. This could tie in well, linked with the BE, so that quality could be increased for the goods, through genetic manipulation.This could also be limited by making the CH use lots to corral the animals as in ranch and limiting the quantity of pets that can be stored there. And these pets could be made into non- combat pets only, once they are used in this way. Allow CH to store animals other places, even cutting down on what can be carried on datapad. Again going back to a ranch or holding pens, using lot space. Allow the creature handler to do some limited selective breeding, to improve the stock of some of there pets especially for the harvest type class, milk, eggs and wool or hides. This could also tie in the Architech, making him the source for the specialized structures, breeding houses, ranches, or holding pens.
I think someone mentioned pets trained to track,be it for a BH or a ranger. Since the city warn has been killed, let the militia use specially trained pets to move the warned players out of the city, with little or no damage to the player. Pets trained to assist in finding certain foraged or agricultural goods. As mentioned use pets to harvest or retrieve the goods or corpses themselves.
There was some mention, in another thread of giving the ranger a weapon that tranqualizes a creature making it easier to handle. The same idea could be given to the CH allowing him a better chance of taming.
Hope I didn't ramble to much.
Again, lots of good ideas here.
Though one thing I hope most CH's can agree with. There NEEDS to be variety in pets. Not just different tameables, but tameables with a different purpose.
Creatures such as a Bordok, or Picket, or Bantha, usually the herbivorves need to be more of the pure HAM, pure resist,low damage creatures.
Creatures such as the cat types need to be pure damage low HAM, low resist. Take a lion for instance. They won't last long in a drug out fight, because they get injured relatively easily, they try to avoid being hurt because it will more than likely spell their death. However, once they get ahold of their prey, it's all over. That prey is dead.
Furthermore, there need to be some mid range creatures. Decient HAM, decient damage, decient resists.
Plus, there needs to be some of the better, high CL creatures such as a Rancor. Creatures such as the Rancor badly need some respect. A Rancor should be a Good damage Good HAM Good reistpet. The jack-of-all-pets so to speak.
See what I am trying to say here?...
SioBabble wrote:
I didin't want to repeat everything Cayid presented, but he's got my take down on CH (and I was an MCH for four months) down fairly well, and so I won't waste more bandwidth reiterating what he has already presented quite eloquently.
YAY! Flattery!
