Development Cycle Archive

Thunderheart:

I would like to say first off thank you VERY much for opening a thread that is devoted to us, the entertainment classes. Let me give you my opinion on what can be done to make our profession better for all those who practice these professions. I am constructing a rather long post, so please bear with me, but I want to fully address the issue of improving the entertainer classes to thosewho truly enjoy the challenge and role. What affects our professons is a complex issue, and cannot be answered within a few lines.

Being an entertainer since June and knowing many others who play the profession, I have to say, quite honestly, that the true draw of this profession is not the acquisition of loot or the completion of quests. When we want to do quests, we simply do the quests that are already available, and many entertainers are also fine combatatnts in their own right.

Indeed, I would question the wisdom of any move that would take us out of the venues for any length of time in order to achieve some kind of prize. What I think needs to be said is that we LIKE the cantinas, the hotels, and the performance venues; and we truly like showing off our social skills to our patrons. It is how we enjoy the game. I think a player on these boards said it best when he said on his first cantina visit, "what is everyone doing here?" and the answer was, "I don't know...but it sure is fun!" True to Ralph Koster's vision of player generated content, we Entertainers can invent our own fun. We needed no developer incentives to form bands, go on tour, create songs, start rumors, act the role of "damsels in distress," or be "travelling troubadors," and I don't think we need them now. However, what I think we DO need from the developers is some incentive to make an effort at being spontaneous, witty, pleasing, hospitable, in-character, and interactive with an audience of other player characters.

I take it that this thread was started to figure out how to encourage entertainers to entertain, or what changes to the entertainment profession would make entertaining more exiting or worthwhile. In order to do this effectively, we must first see what the developers original intent was in creating the entertainment professions, what determined a successful entertainer from an unsuccessful one, and what mechanisms were in place to seperate the two.

It seems to me that the entertainer was designed to cater to a player who might wellbe an aspiring stage actor, comedian, poet, or playwright; or someone who has skills similar to these. That is to say, someone who gets satisfaction from creating a work of intelect with the sole puropse of providing enjoyment to others. I don't think that there is an active entertainer out there who doesn't want to leave the other characters with the impression that they are better for having met our character than having not, and as a result, we try to think of new ways to interact through the rich tools that are given to us in terms of moods, emotes, and dialouge types.

This is why in both the rulebook and in truth, the main source of income that was conceived by the developers was to be measured in terms of player tips. Theoretically, and even practically at first, the assumption was the entertainer that brought home the most in terms of player tips was considered to be a moreentertaining than someone who brought home less. The fact that mission payouts were paltry, and we could not fight and loot at the same time we were performing and increasing our skill levels meant that in order to earn credits while doing our entertaining, we had to compete to be more entertaining than the next girl (or guy).

Let me give you an example. When I was working as a dancer out of Tyrena, I used to sit in a cantina chair, and I would see a Trandoshan walk in. I would get up, do a /deepbow, and say, "Hello! May I dance for you?" If he said yes, I would bring him over to my table and say, "So what are you up to tall, dark, and scaley?" If he was declared, I would say, "So how does it feel to be a soldier?" If he was a Rebel, I'd ask him, "Why do you support the Rebellion?" and so forth. Before you know it, we were having a full blown conversation, and he totally forgot about his battle fatiuge and such. Perhaps he never even thought about things such as why he entered the Rebellion, or how it felt to be a soldier. Perhaps he did and wanted to share. Either way, I helped to immerse him in the world, and forget the fact that he may be grinding unarmed four for a few brief moments in the cantina, and give him living proof that he was not some engineering student at the University, and that herehe was "Stibossk, Lieutenant of the Rebellion and scrapper extrordinare!" In short, I used every tool the developers gave me to make my patrons look forward to getting their Battle Fatiuge and wounds healed, because my economic livelihood depended on it. Indeed, this was the case in the beginning. By doing the things I did, patrons watched my performance more, and I got more in tips than the dancer that did not give the kind of personal, immersive showmanship Iprided myself on.

Notice something, however. The true entertainer "skill" was NEVER the skill at BF healing or mind wound healing, or even the ability to do a complex dance or song. It was ALWAYS in those intangible social aspects that can ONLY come from a live player. Our in-game occupation was never based on the game mechanics of entertainment skill boxes. It was not uncommon that a novice entertainer got more in tips than a boorish master dancer, IF that novice used every manner of wit and tool to enamor themselves to the patrons. I always had a theory about entertaining, and that is this: If your patrons are looking at their character screen to see how fast their BF is going down instead of at you, you fail as an entertainer.

Sadly, the reasons that this thread exists and that the entertainment professions need to be addressed is not that there was nothing to do. Indeed, as I showed you, there is PLENTY to do. If we get bored with being in the cantina, we simply go out and do missions, do quests, and do theme parks. Yet, I would argue that those who truly love and work hard at being entertainers can't wait to get back to the cantina, if only to show off our social and roleplay skills, and have characters reciprocate in kind. The problem is that our profession is getting mechanized into something that scaresly resembles the original intent of what an entertainer is supposed to be. It has become something thathas EVERYTHING to dowith healingBattle Fatiuge, healing mind wounds,or gaining perks or "goodies;" and absolutely NOTHING to do with being "entertaining," as I described.

Choosing to be an entertainer, as I said, caters to a very specilized sort of person. While it is conceivable that bounty hunters and armoursmiths may be witty, funny, and play in-character, nobodyconsiders tipping a pistolieer for being funny out on a hunt. For us, however, that is to be expected; and indeed, in the game culture at least at the outset, this is how it worked. Dancers and musicians became LEGENDS and FAMOUS on our server for being real cards. People trusted them to be in character and be real fun to be around. People looked forward to having their BF healed by them. People did so in part because: A) They could do it better, and, B) If Master A and Master B could heal or buff at the same rate, the factor was not the rate of healing or size of the buff, but who was better at actually "entertaining." In fact, I'd have to say that we could be assured that pretty much NOBODY who thinks what we do is not challenging or fun would choose what we do for their in-game career, except for the simple fact that ONLY entertainers may do certain crucial things for combat characters, cities, PAs, and force-sensitive requirements.

And herein lies the crux of the problem. We have individuals in this game who are pursuing entertainment careers, not because they like entertaining as the developers intended, but rather, to get some kind of goodie by being and mastering an entertainment class. This is at the ROOT of the problem with our profession. When players have to master a class because the holocron told them to do so, or to get a cantina for their city, or to act like a "buffbot" for their player association, they care ONLY for gaining the master's title, and not to play the role in the way the developers intended. I repeat, the problems with this profession is NOT LACK OF DEVELOPMENT, but ratherA LACK OF RESPECT TO WHAT ENTERTAINERS DOby attaching things to the entertainmet professions that have very little to do with being entertaining, and everything to do with acquiring an advantage or a "goodie."

Now, what happens when somebody is forced to do something they have very little interest in, and only see what they do as a means to an end? They try to get to the end result as quickly and efficiently as possible in order to achieve it. Now I know the official stance on unattended gameplay, but there is a reason individuals in our profession dance or play unattended. It is not, I repeat, NOT because there is nothing to do. Its because the things that we do are not fun for them. They want goodies like jedis, cantinas, a self-sufficient PA, or a city that can guarantee round the clock service. All other things considered, they would not even bother with being this class, except that there are reasons to do this class that have nothing to do with the developer's original intent. And what it does is make those players that do the profession and truly enjoy being "entertaining" nothing but dismay.

What players have come to expect from entertainers is not the ambiance and effort to amuse the patrons. They did at one time, but not now. What players come to expect from entertainers is BF, wound healing, and buffs from unattended characters, lag in a few public cantinas known as "grind capitals," full in the mindset that the cantina is simply a place to acquire these things and to leave.

Because when you get right down to it, there is really nothing that live players can do anymore that unattended players cannot. In fact, unattendedcharacters are SUPERIOR to attended characters in that in addition to providing wound and BF healing service, plus buffs via unattended macroed "group" commands, unattended players have the capacity to provide these services 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and see no real need to be more or less "entertaining" than the next player, which must mean also that they do not feel entertainment is a viable way to earn income in the manner with which the developers originally intended; which consequently gives players the mindset that an entertainer's ability to be witty is not "the thing" which differentiates good and bad entertainment. The culture within the servers today is that the things entertainers pride themselves on are not important, because the cantina is a place where very little effort is made to do anything anymore, and that what was once a payable service is just as easily gained for free.

So, what needs to happen is not to give entertainers reasons to interact with NPCs, or to complete quests, or even to create more diverse mission types. In fact, the exact opposite is true. What is needed is to STRIP AWAY all the "goodies" that have nothing to do with entertainment that are attached to the entertainment profession, and make it so the only individuals who are in the cantinas are those that truly like what they do, and not those that simply want "the goodies."

Of course, you are probibly asking yourself at this point, "We cannot code for these things, PoetDancer. We cannot make people like you and want to tip you. We cannot tell the AFK dancer what they can and cannot do with their character, or tell them they have to be entertaining. We can only add things that respond to your game mechanics by adding missions and quests and things." I'm not saying you can. I'm saying the more you make our profession something that has to do with the "goodies" rather than social interaction, the more you have people who would not otherwise purchase a game and pursue an entertainment profession do it for reasons other than the developer's original intent, and the more entertainment becomes something that does not please any party: be it the live players, players who go AFK, or players that have to go to the cantinas to get their stats healed. As far as providing an incentive for people to like me and tip me, I'm very capable of doing this on my own, because I have been doing it well as the developers intended since June. How do I suggest getting back to this original intent of the entertainment profession? I suggest the following changes:

1) The change in the Jedi system was SPOT ON! Unfortunately, it may be some time before the new system goes into effect. What this change did was give players who pursued entertainment for reasons other than being entertaining to leave it to those that do. GOOD JOB!

2) Make cantina placement requirements different. Make it so one only needs to be a novice entertainer to place a cantina. That way, guilds and cities don't have to persuade someone that wouldn't ordinarily want to dance or play into a dancing or playing career. Cities and PAs want cantinas, and we have to assume that they will get them with or without following the developer's intent regarding entertainment. Thus, rather than lay down an entertainer "guildbot" to AFK 24/7 for free in order to gain XP, just let them have it and preserve entertainment for those that do.

3) Change the buffing system. The original intent of this was, I guess, to give some advantage to being a live performer. Indeed, it ENCOURAGED entertainment, because while its true that all other things equal, Master A and Master B can buff at the same rate, the entertainer that made the time go by quicker or funner was the one who the players chose. I actually had people come to me after an 8 minute buffing sesson and say, "Wow! Do I have to stop watching?" However, the problem that surfaced early on was that the buff could be macroed and made available 24/7 with no incentive to be "entertaining." Indeed, the fine art of buffing has never fully been in control of the musician or dancer, and relied on rough estimates of time, number of flourishes, and whatnot. Thus, what started to happen was we simply just buffed for a long period of time so that we can be assured the buff would be quality, and quite frankly, which ended up being more of a distraction and/or a bore for our clients more than anything else. Time being the only element we really had proof on being a factor, this simply became the ONLY factor that was important, not entertainment. While this is a difficult concept to really grasp in tangible terms, I can only ask that a system be in place that is easy to access and implement while we are performing so that we don't have to constantly sit at the clock to know when the procedure is completed, because I'll tell you, entertainers that simply want the buffuing ability do not care about entertaining at all, and only care about "the goodie" of buffing. Do you know that unattended players can buff just as effectively as us via a /group command in their macro? Unless this is changed, players that are actively pursuing entertainment will have NOTHING available to them that an unattended player has, and while I know the stance on unattended entertainment, I must ask that there be SOME advantage to being at the keys, rather than away from them.

4) Unencumber the /registration system and make it more useful. Right now, we have a system that does not promote the equal distribution of entertainment resources on the servers. One or two cities have more entertainers than they know what to do with, and other cities haven't seen an entertainer in weeks, save the occasionl unattended buffbot dragged along to help somebody's PA. Registration suffers from some major problems in that a registered player in a cantina who logs off imprints the cantina with a perpetual sun icon that gives players the false impression that the cantina is manned. If that isn't bad enough, there are qualified entertainers in player venues who cannot register, because their faction allignment clashes with the structure's allignment. While I think that this encumbrence should be preserved for cases where the dancer or musician as DECLARED their faction allignment, there is absolutely no reason in my opinion why COVERT members or neutrals should be unable to register, since it merely gives those looking at the world map the false impression that there is nobody that is qualified to service them at a player cantina, when in fact, there is. Also, the most important cantinas that may make use of this feature, the deathworlds and outposts, where entertainment is rare, are also the very places where registration is currently unavailable. The exitement of playing in far off places because we know we are needed there is one reason why registration would make entertaining more fun, but ONLY if it was a system that actually made sense. Currently, it does not.

Panthu:

Let's look for solutions how this can work for everyone involved, because quite frankly, the addition of content must be created with great care in order to satisfy both the desire of individuals to do something new and worthwhile while still remaining true to the original intent of entertaining. Let me give you an example of what I am talking about:

One of the things that cantina patrons really like is when I use a smoke bomb to chage costumes. To go immediately from a robe to a fleshwrap, for example. This technique added to the qualities of showmanship over somebody who simply got in a flsehwrap and started exotic4ing away. Now I hear from the tailor forums that there is a new schematic available from Jabba's Palace that allows a tailor to craft an exotic leotard with mind enhancement bonuses of 5%. That means a Master Dancer with this item on can give a 105% buff over a dancer that does not have it. While on the one hand it gives dancer a kind of goal or loot to acquire, it also bases an entertainer's "worth" on something that has nothing really to do with entertaining. While my customers like the visual appeal of my coordinated costume changes and live, at the keyboard play; I am nevertheless "inferior" in the game mechanics sense over an unattended dancer who does exotic4 all day in her 105% piece of loot. Now of course one may argue that if I truly respect my patrons I should dance in the 105% exotic leotard and never change my costume, but then again, doesn't this sacrifice the original intent of the entertainment professions to ENCOURAGE creative showmanship and attentiveness to our patrons? See how in this situation the "loot" becomes the measure of a good entertainer, and not the original intent of being "entertaining" as the measure of a good entertainer?

That is why I am asking that whatever content additions are made be handeled with a lot of thought and care so as to ENCOURAGE attentive and creative play, and not make entertainment simply a matter of having loot and getting "goodies," attentiveness notwithstanding.

While I definately agree entertainers need a little love, I am at a loss as to how...

Perhaps an artisan craftable device that will record an entertainers form of entertainment to played back in the field*limited use device or one time use*...

artisan makes tape recorder.

Musician record a buffing performance on it

joe blow plays tape out in the field with a penalty to buff effectiveness and duration *meaning it's better live then on tape*

Tape is destroyed by new copyright technology.

would give a little something for the entertainers... (of course let them record a full crate of recorders at one time....)

just some random thoughts... also I remember reading about ID's idea about craftable disguise kits and temp. ID uses things like lipstick, makeup, hairspray... thought that was a good idea.

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I don't think they were thinking of preserving the showmanship value any when they went with the very restrictive leotard as loot, but they didn't ask me.

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Missions for Dancers/Musicians:

You get the waypoint of a theatre. Then you have to organize a crowd of players that come there and listen to your music/watch you dance. Players have to register for the performance and keep watching/listening for a certain time (like when getting a mind buff).

Dancers/musicians get experience based on how many people came and watched/listened and based on how many fellow band members they were.

Just an idea, haven't finally thought it out in terms of game mechanics...

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Thunderheart wrote:

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KombatCamKombat wrote:

I like the idea of Entertainers (Dancers and Musicians) to be able to play @ Jabba's Palace....

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This is a great aspect to keep in mind -- thanks for bringing it up

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Here's an idea: A seperate set of missions, essentially a seperate "themepark" for entertainer types.

You would go to the first NPC, as before, and he would tell you to go and perform for Jabba's men (and women) in the field... you would then need to go to the Jabba'sGuard camp in the field, and perform for them. After several of these, you see the next NPC. This goes down the line until you get the final audition to perform for Jabba himself (and get missions from him, to perform for VIPs), but after this point, you can perform in his throneroom.

This would not be a way to do an end-run around the combat-oriented park. If you are also a combat-capable person, you would still need to start at the beginning for that side of the park. Asking others about combat missions after you gain entry should result in things such as, "You're just a musician... stick to your job. If you really want to get yourself killed, go talk to [whoever]".

Lazarus Long

PS - The forum is broken again... I cannot reply using Mozilla today. I had to open IE to do so.