Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-12: Combat Roles; Rifleman
WasteXY hit the point, I think.
and I like Chipmunks idea:
...you can use "/aim body" and it will target the body to do normal health damage. When you think about it a sniper should be able to shoot the portion of the body that he wants to so why can't we? Choosing the HAM bar to attack with "/aim body" you can only use a normal, non-special, shot. Since /aim causes you to take up 2 combat turns this doesnt seem too unreasonable.
/aim body , /aim head and /aim feet are the things I really miss as rifleman. Make it even last 2 rounds (for longer aiming) - it'd still be nice for PvE and PvP. I even think this should be the thing that makes the rifleman unique. At the same time the rifleman is very vulnerable to melee attacks (and 64m makes every prone rifleman a potential target) - so I think there's a good balance here.
MfG Maxxx
Tough question, but I think it's been answeredvery well so far.It'stough to discuss becauserifleman is a fantastic profession as it stands today, with the exception of some of the abilities.
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat? Asothers have said,high damage output and armor piercing at range. It's worth noting that "range" is a mostly negligible concept at the moment. But the farther away you are, the more dangerous Ishould beto you.
What basic combat elements should they possess? Again, good accuracy and high damage output. Great ranged defense when prone. Cover, if it worked, should boost that even more. I'd like to see some useful status effects added - intimidation comes to mind. Nobody should want to charge 65 meters towards a sniper (or machine gunner)in cover, and I should have a chance to make you hit the dirtif you do.
What offensive abilities? Aside from the obvious, it's imperative that a master rifleman have a comparable rate of fire to all other classes. As it stands now,anything less than master or near-master is downright slow,making itdifficult to work the special shots to good effect. It's not adabbling profession. The rifleman only comes into his-or-her own at the very end of their grind.
What defensive abilities? Good ranged defense again. The point about melee defense is well taken, but If a rifleman must havea weakness to balance their strength, I'd pick either poor melee defense or poor damage output within melee range - you're either blocking or shooting, but not both. And if your weapon is 4 feet long, what veteran brawler would ever let you get it pointed at them?The old melee damage modifier was a decent reflection of this (or wouldhave beenwithoutthe warping); if you let something get close you had to drop the rifle and go for "plan b" orhold tight andpick acloning center.
What unique abilities? Concealment chance is an excellent PvE -onlyboost for the solo hunter. It's not a "wow" effect, but really useful. More useful status effects and maybe a good single-target,random pool shotwould be anice bonus. The kicker - extended range beyond 64m. It drives me nuts that myrange bonusis still good through the 60's but I'm not allowed to shoot from there.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat? Damage and status effects at range, pure and simple. Negligible usefulness at melee range. It's not a stretch to have to pick up a melee or pistol skill if you want to be useful inside 15 meters - it's the price you pay for being stupendous at range.
How could/should they interact with other professions? At the moment the rifleman is heavily dependent on crafters and suppliers. Weapon/ armorsmiths and slicers likeeveryone else, but a short read through the forum will show you that most folks are heavily dependent on entertainer buffs, spice, and food. Without those our specialsdo crippling damageto the mind pool - mostly ours - so the penalty is very steep and the downtime can get excessive. It takes a village to keep the rifleman at his or her peak.
I'd like to comment and just add my input on one thing:
I'm a Novice Rifleman. The rifleman should not get a speed increase, not as much as he does. That's what pistols and carbines are for. The rifleman, instead, should get more damage, or more possibilty for damage through the ranges on his weapons. Either rifles that do a lot more damage, or a damage bonus from skills. This would help the Rifleman enter the role I'd assume one would be meant for, and that is Sniping. Everything in Rifleman seems to revolve around being a sniper, from the Sniper branch to the counter sniper branch. A sniper can be quick, its true (saving private ryan) but their best ability is picking their target, studying them, recon'ing and killing important targets with ONE shot. Not six. One. To be able to, especially in PVP against players whose mind looks like a stub, kill in one shot at the sacrifice of speed, should be the role of the rifleman.
Onichi wrote:
kingmaxxx wrote:
WasteXY hit the point, I think.
and I like Chipmunks idea:
...you can use "/aim body" and it will target the body to do normal health damage. When you think about it a sniper should be able to shoot the portion of the body that he wants to so why can't we? Choosing the HAM bar to attack with "/aim body" you can only use a normal, non-special, shot. Since /aim causes you to take up 2 combat turns this doesnt seem too unreasonable.
/aim body , /aim head and /aim feet are the things I really miss as rifleman. Make it even last 2 rounds (for longer aiming) - it'd still be nice for PvE and PvP. I even think this should be the thing that makes the rifleman unique. At the same time the rifleman is very vulnerable to melee attacks (and 64m makes every prone rifleman a potential target) - so I think there's a good balance here.
MfG Maxxx
I agree, the number of times I've wished I could target the same pools as the people I'm grouped with ( other than Bounty Hunters of course ). The only problem is I don't know if something like this would tip the balance scales too much in our favour.. hmmm.. Change the /Headshot1-2-3 specials to /aimshot1-2-3
/aimshot body
/aimshot head
/aimshot leg
etc.... etc... hehe! Sounds good in Theory.
Well I honestly don't think it would give us that much of a benefit. You have to realize that by using "/aim2 leg" you are in essence taking away 2 random shots (both of which may have hit action, more likely 1 would have however it is also possible that none did) in order to get 1 garunteed. Also you are doing normal, non special damage, so again this is basically just a means of picking off that last little bit of health in 1 shot (that takes the equivalent amount of time as 2 shots) rather then randomly hitting and possibly taking 3 or more.
Also you took off another part of it that I felt would help this out even more. We have /aim thanks to marksman level skills. Well being someone with expert sniping skills I feel that I deserve a better /aim or /aim2 if you would. Basically it is the exact same thing as /aim when followed by a special shot. If you want to do a good definite hitconcealshot? Just go /aim2, /concealshot and there you go an even higher chance of hitting the beast. So you can decide to get a near definite hit on a HAM bar for somewhat low damage (normal), you can get a near definite hit on a random HAM bar for really high damage (SS2), or you can get a near definite hit on the mind bar for some pretty darn good damage (HS3). Of course most people wouldn't use these secondary options (except when stringing together a bunch of concealshots) but it would still be nice to be there.
PsychotiChipmunk,
You are right, I was looking at it from a different angle.. Done in a similar way to what you just suggested it sounds like a good tradeoff and not completely overpowering because of the Damage differential between a "Normal" attack and a "Special" attack.
Cheers Mate!
Longer range would be nice for us. This 64m cap us bogus. Im mainly into PvP at this point. Sure ive had my share of kills. Most of them at 40+ range. Anyone within 30 meters and Im a dead man as it should be. On the other hand, we have the TKA Master/Pistoleer types to contend with. A self buffer that spams eyeshot and knock down whilewearing 3 layer compositefrom the moment they see us. A good majority of the time I spend lying on my back lookin at the sky.
The only way to be competative with a rifle is to get the normal health buffs with the added mind buffs.As far as speed goes, A master sniper can shoot quickly and accurately at long range.
I personally see no reason to swing the bat at us. With the other professions and thier current abilities we get dead just as much as they do.
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?
The situation defines the role. However, all precedents point back to speed. To draw a parallel to real world riflemen, which is what I assume the Devs also did, you have two distinct Castes of riflemen. You have Mobile Infantry (MI) and Snipers. MI are generally equiped with semi or fully automatic rifles. A sniper can fire a shot at a target reading a book, and catch the book with the second shot before it hits the ground. In either case we're looking at a high speed, high damage class. However, this only comes at Master, just as only the best snipers get off 3 rounds in 2 seconds, and most MI can't hit the side of the barn until they have some battle experiance. Thus I feel the current role is justly portrayed.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
As I mentioned before, speed and at Master level (IE Sniper) high accuracy. Stealth is not necessary, due to radar limitations, but it is a plus. Obviously since a guy running across an open field at you with an AK-45 isn't exactly a stealthy target, but it does have a high intimidation factor, oponents are more likely to miss someone battle hardened with a rifle (read Master). Same holds true for a sniper. Odds of finding him in time, let alone shooting him are slim. Thus high ranged Defense is key. Furthermore, throughout history we have seen Rifles employed as effective close arms weapons by reversing the direction and using the butt of the rifle as a blunt object. Melee defense should be at least on par with other ranged profs if not slightly better (IE easier to block a sword swinging at you with a rifle than with a pistol) To these ends, I also feel the Devs have hit the mark.
What offensive abilities?
Riflemen should be lethal alone, but have their effectiveness drop in a large battle. I am not asking for a Rambo type thing, but as a Rifleman is presented with more targets and more choices, obviously his concentration and accuracy will fall. His defenses may also drop with his awareness. In game I see this as the fact that our powerful AOE attacks often get short changed in larger battles where everyone may not be close together. As a consequence, we are open to more harm from widely dispersed opponents. I also believe that Riflemen should act as the snipers they draw from. A ranged DB goes well with this, but I feel a small range increase would be nice. Possibly 75 meters. We have succesful snipings recorded from over a mile. Yet a Scatter Pistol I believe it was? can shoot a turret farther away than a rifle. Yes I know it was a bug and an exploit, but it brings up an inherent instability in the combat system.
What defensive abilities?
Riflemen should be nearly immune to posture down attacks and with a high resist to KD's. Any good MI knows that the worst thing to happen is to get pinned in one place. As a Rifleman, you should recieve training to prevent this from happening. I would like to include a resistance to blind...but honestly I can't see any real reason why we should have one.
What unique abilities?
The lone sniper can unnoticibly take out lone members of groups without the group being aware (See: Enemy at the Gates, Fountain Scene). This skill, and the idea of being a sniper with the ranged Deathblow add correctly and fill in nicely the spots for Unique Rifle abilities. Perhaps if there was a shot similar to Conceal for PVP, in which it did not auto-aggro the person you are attacking. Thusa person would actually have to target and attack you, providing a bit more to the sniper element. Keep this low damage, a 2x multiplier probably.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Riflemen should add the ability to clear the field of battle in a short amount of time, be it through sniping (Ranged DB) or with Fully Automatic weapons to mow down troops. Again, the roll is dictated by circumstance. I have participated in battles where either one has been required of me, and sometimes both.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Riflemen by ideal are a solo class, when you think about snipers. But considering MI, they would operate best with other MI, a commando or two, and a few Hand to hand specialists. They are also interdependant on several other proffessions for assistance in preperation for battle. Artisans for powerups, Docs, Dancers, Musicians, Smugglers and Chefs all can do good business by riflemen. I know I have put in orders for 40 crates of powerups 20 crates of Foods and Drinks, and 20 crates of muon at times. Not to mention all the musicians who knew me so well.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Most other proffessions should look to Riflemen as a quick fix to enemy surpression. Close group of 4 guys all standing together, send in the machine gunner. One lone, dangerous gaurd? Send in the Sniper. Riflemen are there as a dynamic answer to the most challenging situations when you need heavy firepower and quick adaptability.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Basically, look at the last question. There should be little to no difference in reality. Their role should be dependant on how they interact with all other proffessions, just the same as a Pistoleers role should be defined how they interact. Riflemen provide a high damage, high adaptability solution to most situations.
-Jardone
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?
-Quick Heavy damage dealer, from long range.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
-Quick Heavy damage and nothing else(Sorta like a wizard in any other MMO).
What offensive abilities?
-Fast heavy damageing Specials that have high costs. Great accuracy from long range, poor accuracy up close(For balance's sake).
What defensive abilities?
-Just moderate ranged defence, no melee defence what so ever. Our defence is our range, if anyone closes in on us we should be dead.(Again for the sake of balance)
What unique abilities?
-Just straight up quick heavy damage, we should not get anything else special for having that
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
-We clean up while others tank and crowd control, our job is to reduce the enemy's HAM-Nothing more.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
-Carbineers can keep em on the ground while we pound em, Pistoleers+Meleers engage while we back them up with damage from a distance, Commando's Chew em up close range and we chew em up from a far.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
-We should need a person to tank for us, if that means reducing our speed while using a rifle or giving a bonus to meleer's damage so be it. Like I said earlyer we should be SWG's wizards, we are almost that right now and most if not allRiflemen like that role.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
-The long range damage dealer, the one who stays in the back of the fray while others charge forward.
Hey,
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?
Mind attacks.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Should be able to auto-fire along with mind attacks at a speed of 1 second.
What offensive abilities?
To satisfy the "nerf" wombat make SS2 ( strafe shot 2 ) have a greater delay than what it has now.
What defensive abilities?
A rifle melee attack in range of 5m-10m
What unique abilities?
Only ranged combat class to hit mind, besides mindshot1 from marksman tree.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
The ability to soften up targets from max range safely while melee/pistol/carbine/commando classes close in.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Strong vs ranged (pistol/carbine) and commando, weaker vs melee.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Should be dependant on a tank of somesort be it a creature or melee class.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Should spawn an imperial riflemanbattalion a night outside Anchorhead and a rebel rifleman battalion a night outside theed about 30min apart switched a night, lead by an NPC with 500k+ HAM.
GarGanGaRgAnTuA wrote:
Hey,
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?
Mind attacks.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Should be able to auto-fire along with mind attacks at a speed of 1 second.
What offensive abilities?
To satisfy the "nerf" wombat make SS2 ( strafe shot 2 ) have a greater delay than what it has now.
What defensive abilities?
A rifle melee attack in range of 5m-10m
What unique abilities?
Only ranged combat class to hit mind, besides mindshot1 from marksman tree.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
The ability to soften up targets from max range safely while melee/pistol/carbine/commando/BH classes close in.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Strong vs ranged (pistol/carbine/BH) and commando, weaker vs melee.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Should be dependent on a tank of somesort be it a creature or melee class.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Really should be the infantry killers while commandos take on vehicles and other classes are up in the rukus. Speedy random pool (auto-fire) and speedy mind attacks from a distance are what its all about and what makes rifleman worth attaining.
Should spawn an imperial riflemanbattalion a night outside Anchorhead and a rebel rifleman battalion a night outside theed about 30min apart, lead by an NPC with 500k+ HAM.
May the force be with you
Gar'Gan' GaRgAnTuA
Master Sharpshooter