Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IT 7-2 Preliminary Combat Balance Changes
electricnomad wrote:
As for the Panic Shot change, you just broke another part of Smuggler for no good reason. You're clearly trying to weed out the huge 20-second delay of Warcry2 (and probably the powerful Novice Brawler skill of Warcry1), and that's understandable. So why not cut Warcry1 to 5 seconds, and put Warcry2 and Panic Shot at 10 seconds? If you're worried about people KDing a target and then delaying them there, why not count a Warcry/Panic Shot as a KD against someone who's knocked down, meaning that they instantly spring back to their feet? There are many creative ways to fix the situation.
Sowhy attack Panic Shot to accomplish that goal? There's already almost nothing in the Smugglerprofession that works (yeah yeah - wait for the revamp, you'll say, but that's been the Devs' line since Summer 2003, and anytime you play that card we know it's a joker). Now you're stripping away something that actually DOES work, and in fact somethingthat's probably THE most useful move in the whole tree.
Here are some of the many differences between Warcry and Panic Shot, and how I would justify leaving Panic Shot as-is:
- Warcry is a scream.
- Panic Shot is a flurry of pistol shots.
- Warcry1 lasts for 10 seconds, but Warcry2 lasts for 20 seconds, and both are on a 30-second timer.
- Panic Shot lasts for 10 seconds and is on a 30-second timer.
- Warcry has no defense other thanfailure on the part of the Brawler.
- Panic Shot can be Blocked, Dodged, Counterattacked, or simply missed.
- Warcry doesn't cause any damage.
- Panic Shot does damage to a target if it hits.
- Warcry1 is a Novice Brawler skill, while Warcry2 is in the Master box of a starting profession.
- Panic Shot is a 2nd-tier Hybrid profession's skill, requiring skills from three differentskilltrees to use. In fact, Smugglers use a branch of the Brawler tree as a prerequisite, meaning that it's a stepping stone to more powerful abilities.
- Warcry has all of its effectiveness in the Brawler tree. Once you are a Master Brawler, you have the best possible skills to use Warcry effectively.
- Panic Shot depends on Pistol Accuracy to hit a target. There are no Pistol Accuracy modifiers in the Smuggler skilltree - they're in the Pistoleer skilltree.
- Warcry1 is acquired by spending 100 credits and 15 available skillpoints. Warcry2 requires 77 skillpoints,620 Apprentice XP,and 364,000 points of different melee combat XP.
- Panic Shotrequires that you invest 29 skillpoints in Brawler, 29 skillpoints in Marksman, and 18 skillpoints in Smuggler, for a total of 73 skillpoints. To use Panic Shot, you need to earn 91,000 Unarmed XP and 566,000 Pistol XP. Considering that Pistol Accuracy is needed forPanic Shotto work effectively, however, there's a need to invest in Pistoleer skills. To get only the branch dedicated to Pistol Accuracy, one needs to invest another 20 skillpoints and earn another 1,275,000 Pistol XP. To maximize your chances of landing a Panic Shot, you need to invest another2,450,000 Pistol XP, 56,000 Combat XP, 620 Apprentice XP, and 43 skillpoints. So to be most effective at using a Panic Shot, a Smuggler needs to also be a Master Pistoleer, spending a grand total of 165 skillpoints and 4,291,000 Pistol XP, among other things.
There are many differences between Warcry and Panic Shot. All Smugglers are Brawlers, but not all Brawlers are Smugglers. Smugglers build on the abilities of the Brawler profession and augment them. Both in terms of a skillpoint argument and an XP argument, Smuggler abilities should be more potent than Brawler skills. Brawler is a prerequisite for Smuggler, andthere is NO justification for equating the power of the prerequisite with the power of the advanced skill. By that faultylogic, Unarmed Hit 1 would do just as much damage as Unarmed Hit 3.
What all does the 125 cap include? Is that just skills or are other enhancements capped at 125 also?
In other words, lets say I get my skills to the point where I have a 125 vs. Stun (may not be possible, but work with me here). If I then put on some BE clothes that buff defense vs. stun by 25, will that stack up to 150 or still max at 125? If I add a skill enhancement tape, will that increase beyond 125? If I eat/drink/be merry something that will give me a defense vs. stun bonus, will that increase it beyond 125?
If it goes live without this cap we'll be in the same position as we are now.
Hmm 4 pages and almost nothing about how well these bug-fixes, yes they're bug fixes, are working. There are lots of things broken but the first thing that needs fixed is your testing system. If my main character (read: the only one I have time to play) was on a testing server, I'd test. If I have to start a new character, I won't test. Not to complicated really. This is brought up alot and you folks at SOE still don't seem to understand.
It's important. Throw people at it till you get it done. It's important. Did I mention it's important?
SWG-Runesabre wrote:
I will be evaluating the changes to Panic Shot tomorrow (Monday) when my combat balance designer gets back in town.
By the way...if you are looking at the warcry changes, you might consider making the range cone of these effects a little wider...
With the current state of warcry, I have a great deal of problems getting warcry to hit multiple targets (as in more than one) because the cone of effect is so narrow.
If you don't widen the effect zone, you are making the effect worthless, because:
(1) The classes that are using these delays (brawlers and pistol users (smugglers)) have really fast attacks. If you try to warcry one mob for crowd control, chances are you will hit the mob (very lowdelay) before you get your target switched to another mob, thereby killing the effect.
(2) Mobs naturally migrate to the compass-points around you (front, back, right, left). If you get into a situation where you actually need crowd control, you will never get all those mobs within the cone you need to get them to make warcry work (that is, without spending 5 minutes maneuvering them while getting hit--by then it is too late).
I really like the "no attack until attacked" rule that you have proposed, and I look forward to it. I think it will give a real function to brawlers (as the mesmerizers (EQ) of the game), and goes a long way to prevent them from being kitable by multiple ranged mobs.
HOWEVER, I think if this change were made, Warcry needs to be a 360 Degree, short rangeeffect to make it worthwhile. It would be the "add stopper," and would be a great addition for melee classes.
Krayvex wrote:Hmm 4 pages and almost nothing about how well these bug-fixes, yes they're bug fixes, are working.
The problem here is that they have structured the forums with an outlined a process of:
In Concept :: Propose Changes & get FEEDBACK
In Testing :: Implement previosuly discussed Changes & get TESTING
In Live :: Publish tested & fixed chages to live and then wrap up discussion and move on
BUT (while excusable with pub 6 changes like the crackdown because the forum stucture was new) they have skipped the in concept step with these combat proposals and jumped straight to the testing phase. This causes much panic amongst the user base who percieve the changes are inevitable and must 'work' to change the course and it totally clutters up the original intent of posts to this forum.
I think TH @ Co. *really* need to take a step back an take all this in and re-evaluate when and where they give out detailed information about coming changes if they want these threads in the "In Testing" to be solely about testing patch notes, and not how we feel about things on test center. Otherwise what we all are seeing in this thread will be inevitable for all testing threads in the future.
Just my two credits but, If Panic shot and Warcry are being changed the way they are can we get a positive change as well?
Either take out the 30 second immune timer on them or bump up the lasting time from 10 seconds to maybe a range of 25-60 seconds depending on +warcry skill?