CUEmu - Thread Posts

0smspiff0

Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:49 am

"The only thing that made my life miserable as a crafter were the resource prices, which went through the roof when the holo's you guys gave everyone turned everyone into a holo grinder."

There is a weaponsmith on my server who I talk to every so often. He is attempting to hologrind while keeing Wepaonsmith (as I am doing with BE). His biggest complaint about the hologrind is that it has totaly screwed up the economy (the implication is that he was fine with the economy before the big Holo-push). People pay WAY too much for resourfces and do not sell their end products.

Things you will notice - while I grinded all the Entertainer professions I had two tiusses that I wanted to put into clothing - I was able to find two tailors in over a week (and unfortunatly couldn't meet up with them).

Once the Holo grind is over the economy should return to where it was before - that is the time to determine if the economy really is broken or not. You are trying to fix something with an unknown variable that you will be removing in the near future... not a good way to do things. Perhaps, if you can do it, you should see what the state of the economy was in November and compare it to now - if it is very different (which you should find that it is) then making this change for the sake of the economy is probably not a good idea.

Let the holo grind stop and the economy return to normal. Put the topic for crafting changesd on the In Concept board. Find some ways to have items under the new scheme have advantages over the old scheme so that people who stockpile do not have the ability to screw up the economy with their old wares.

No Sig for now... stay tuned

Delii

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:00 am

#340

JustG wrote:

Thanks for the responses. I do understand it is an emotional issue.

Still reading... still thinking...

- g

please note that this changes will do NO good to any economy on any servers, it is not going to improve crafting or adds in variety, none at all. what you can consider is to increase the quality and spawming rate of resources. this in turn will allow new crafter a good chance to compete with the rich and reputable crafters.

please please do reconsider this change, every single player here is against it. and this shows something about this crafting changes you dev are implementing.

please do hear out the community. we are the ones thats playing AND paying.

thanks for the hard work on improving this game i do hope you will keep it up!

"There's no mystical force that controls my destiny"

Ratscallion

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:01 am

#341

To reiterate what other posters have said, if the dev goal is to:

1) Increase crafted item diversity

2) Increase the importance of item quality

3) Open the market to newer crafters

Solve #1 by making the other experimental areas worthwhile i.e. give weaponsmiths a reason to experiment in HAM cost or range rather than damage/speed. Allow them to have 80m rifles for instance, or high-accuracy weapons that balance out the loss in max/min damage.

#2 - item quality is already important. I don't craft but I do mine resources; there is definitely a correlation between the cpu of my resources and the stats in the areas that have bearing on experimentation. This says to me that crafters will pay top dollar for top resources because they give the top results.

#3 - The proposed changes actually HARM goal #3 by increasing the importance of experimentation skill tapes.

Numen

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:21 am

#342

As many other have stated, making resource stats matter more on the final product widens the gap even more between current crafters and new ones.

This will not promote variety. The same places people experiment first won't change. The only thing that changes now is on those products that were maxed at 7-8 points in that primary stat. It will just mean all 10 will go into that.

There is no reason to experiment in all ham on armor and leave resists alone. The smith might as well just make lower end armor then as it will have the same low protections and the same low ham and a lot cheaper cost. There is no reason for a weaponsmith to experiment on ham or accuracy first. The tradeoff of dmg/speed is rarely ever worth it. The 1 exception I know of is for Vibro Knuckles and this is only because the majority of dmg a TKA does is not from the weapon. It is from their skills.

The inherant problem with making secondary stats worthwhile in experimention is the usefulness of 12 exp points goes up. Right now a weapon might get an extra 5-10 accuracy with 2 more points. If you made it 10-20 that just widens the gap between highend crafters and new crafters.

One huge thing that could have been done to avoid all this and possible wasted develoment time was to get the players opinions on this topic. The reaons listed by the devs above are very valid. There are definately improvements that could be made. However I believe the wrong approach was taken. The solution given here I believe actually makes the economy worse in the aspects you believe it needs to be fixed. I have no idea if my ideas would be the solution as well, but I do know that thousands of players can come up with a lot more solutions than all the devs which would be a much smaller number.

Amandil Morier - Tempest - Master Chef

Vercin_getorix

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:24 am

#343

I thought long and hard about posting a response. I do not think I will be heard in the cacophony of replies. In the end, here I am. I figured the best way to approach this is to go line by line:

"To put not too fine a point on it, the game economy is in poor shape."

This doesn't mean anything. I realize that you went on to ellaborate somewhat, but you did not strike home. What would be helpful is if you put your concerns in language that has meaning. "poor shape" means lots of different things to lots of different people. The result is that the statement becomes meaningless.

My temptation is to espouse ecomonic philosophy that will roll off of everyones back. I will spare you. What would help me is to frame your discussion in economic terms. That is, if you view the failed economy in terms of unemployment, hyperinflation, stagnation, etc. Once you frame the discussion, then we can rationally talk about it.

"Our main concern centered around the fact that with most master crafters all making the best equipment possible"

Your expectation SHOULD be that crafters make the best equipment possible. That being said, I could not disagree with you more. Most master crafters make garbage. Every server I have anything to do with has its elite crafers, and they rank in the 1 to 2 dozen. Typically, I see about 3-4 elite Weaponsmiths per server at any given time.

Your problem -may- be that 4 Master Weaponsmiths can easily meet the demand of weapons on a server. This is a different problem than you are adressing.

"there is very little variety on the market"

Perhaps. But the question is if this is because of the system, or because of the market. Based on my personal first hand experience as a weaponsmith, it is because of the market. Ask any Weaponsmith. 90% of the customers only look at Damage and Speed. Nothing else matters to them. Adding complexity to the product will not change this. If you change the combat system to depend on something more that speed and damage, this could change.

"new vendors find it difficult to break into the business"

This is as is should be. It is unreasonable to think you will start a retail sales business, and immeditately be competetive with Walmart. This just doesn't happen. It takes time and a lot of hard work to make a successful business. You can lay this at the feet of the current crafting system if you wish, butit is misplaced. Establish manufacturers will always have an edge in a mature market. Only innovators have an edge on the establishment, and I do not see how your new system allows for true innovation.

"We want to take the first steps in rebuilding the economy."

Despite the rhetoric of the current US Presidential campaigns, governments cannot rebuild economies. Only the consumers can. You might not think of yourself as such, but you are a de facto Oligarchy in this game.

"By having resource quality play a more significant role in the experimentation process"

Not to rub it in, but you first say you want to help the new crafters, yet you change the system to the advantage of those that already have the best resources, ie. the established crafters.

"especially when using lower quality resources"

On balance, lower quality materials will always make lower quality merchandise. All things being equal, consumers will usually purchase higher quality goods and services if they can afford it. Convience is the big exception to this rule, but I digress.

"consumers will need to decide what types of equipment will best suit their playing styles"

You nailed it, and didn't even know it. There is little diversity in the market place, because there is little diversity in playing styles. Now we can wax philisophical about why this is. We can discuss "chicken and egg" problems of game design. But, we are not doing that. That would help us understand your changes.

"We believe that the introduction..."

This may be nitpicking, but please please please stop using language that reflect insecurity in your decisions, like "we hope", "we would like", and "we think". You are in control. You make the decisions. If you seem uncertain about the current course of action, then you are generating fear and trepidation in the player base. Much of the rancor in this dicussion is fueled by your unsure language. You may not be sure about your course of action, but don't tell us.

Lastly JustG wrote: "I would ask that you try to keep the emotional responses out of it... that has no effect other than to make us skip that post."

People are emotional because they care. To openly say that you dismiss peoples feelings outright serves to really freaking tick people off. You cannot with a wave of your hand invalidate peoples feelings. People have feelings for a reason.

I said this before, and I really want you to listen. Your are the de facto governement in this system. There are few greater mistakes politicians can make than to discount peoples feelings. They will punish you mercilessly for doing it. The developement team may not be elected, but players can certainly vote with their credit cards.

Just in summary, I strongly urge the team to not move on this change. You have a problem you are trying to solve. That problem has not been clearly defined. No metrics have been put forth to illustrate the problem. You have not convinced large portions of the player base that there is a problem, most notably the successful master crafters and the people that have been playing the longest, ie. your most loyal and most influential players. You have not put forth any evidence that the your changes will actually work to fix the problem as you see it. All the discussion of effects is rife with speculation.

So, in finish, you are taking a HUGE risk in going forward with these changes. Are you prepared to move forward with this, against the will of the people, on a hunch?

Schildawg

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:30 am

#344

I didn't read all the replies on this, but I just wanted to pop in and state my opinion on this.

I used to be an armorsmith, and loved it till I got to master. I sold tons and tons of bone, Mabari, and Ubese armor. (Every piece I made up till master almost) It took me at least 3 months to master. But after master I started hating the profession. The specific resources I had to find were mind blowing. I spent a million credits on day one of master just to get the resources I needed, and then my results were poor. After that came the never ending quest to try to get better and better resources to try to someday reach the level of the people who had ground the profession while I was playing the profession, and had stockpiled all the good resources over the months. Knowing full welleven when I got them, the chances of being the best were not to be because I would never be able to get the skill tapes.

The issue to me was never about the money. It became a major timesink trying to keep up with it all. And the people around me had no concept of what I had to deal with. I kept getting harassed all the time, "Why can't you make 90% armor like so and so", "Why can't you sell a whole suit for 300k"Meanwhile the lack of resources available and the difficulty of finding good malleability, shock, and overall really turned me off to the whole crafting thing. After doing this several months the realative simplicity of the combat classes really appealed to me. I decided I wanted to play a game, and not have a second job, lol.

This system might be really awesome to someone who thrives on visiting every planet every day to check out which new resources appear, and loves throwing down a bunch of harvesters to stockpile it, and continously tries to get better and better materials over months and months.

I think the end result will be the people who already have the resources will become even better and it will be harder for new people to compete with those who are already there. I think it will have the opposite effect of what you are looking for. Less and less people are going to want to be crafters, and the economy will suffer.

Less people will want to be crafters. The people who want to play a crafter and can't deal with the tedium will quit the game. People will be frustrated because they can't get their weapons, armor, spice, etc, etc, and they will quit the game. Already the streets of Coronet are becoming less and less laggy due to lack of people. Eventually people like me who actually like the game will leave because we're tired of making a set of friends only to see your whole friends listdisappear aftera month. And the devs will be sitting their scratching their heads wondering where they went wrong.

But that's just my opinion.

Syraxen

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:35 am

#345

Yes, please keep thinking and dont do this

oh and in case you skipped it, read caddelite's post i agree withwhat someone said that it is a very good one. This nerf wont help the econ, a change to the source of it all, harvesters and resources are probbably the only things that will affect it.

Syraxen Master Rifleman, Master Swordsman+ Arlania Master Armorsmith, Master Doctor
Intrepid Server

EledrenRontas

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:37 am

#346

having read over 12 pages of this thread, and more besides on other threads over the matter, coupled with the rollout of patch 7, I do not and cannot beleive you have listened to your player base over this.

As I've recently acquired novice armoursmith, the prospect that these changes gives me does not seem in any way shap or form attractive. In the months ahead I envision being able to sell nothing to anyone for more than a few hundred credits. Hey, seen as I'm only a novice armoursmith, I don't know why I shouldn't just pack it in now and start working on some pure combat professions. Is that what you're trying to encourage? I can only beleive so, because with these changes I wouldn't expect to seea return on my wares for months to come, that is unless I go camp a borgle bat cave which I'm willing to bet there'll be a crackdown on after patch 7 comes out as so many people have complained about it. Getting rid of skill tape campers is a good thing indeed, but its a little too much like fixing the barn door after the horse has bolted for my liking.

I agree with most of the things posted in this thread over why this "fix" is a bad idea, and I agree even more strongly that you should concentrate fixing bugs that actually annoy people as opposed to "enhancing" parts of the game that are actually fun.

I'm sorry I don't really have much constructive criticism to offer, as most of it's already been said, I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus dissenting to this change.

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Sometimes I lay awake in bed at night and just look at the stars...

Then I wonder, where the hell is my ceiling?

The combat revamp is like trying to find a pot of gold at the bottom of a rainbow. You keep getting closer and closer, but you just never seem to get to it.

demosthenes810

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:47 am

#347

Alright...everyone seems to be criping that only the 'richest, oldest crafters will be able to make the best'...err...duh...I'm a new crafter, I have no problem with it. They should make better...but then they already do, because they know more...they've done it longer...they should do better...where is the problem here...gaah...without this, there is NO advancement in the profession for working on it longer.

/end.obvious.statement.of.how.it.should.have.always.been

demosthenes810

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:51 am

#348

Err...I feel a need to add...so...you'll have to go out and find resources...err...that is supposed to be the entire end of the crafting part of the game...get good resources, make some stuff...the fact that YOU will be out getting more resources means YOU won't be making five million of everything so new guys can actually SELL STUFF because you'll be out of stock...err...this is bad how? You can't be godly in combat by spending five minutes each day loading your pistol with 'special juice' after spending five minutes buying it off somebody...you shouldn't be able to be godly in the crafting world after spending five minutes loading you factory, with stuff you spent five minutes buying, and then a day later spending five minutes loading your vendor with five hundred of some item so nobody ever goes to another vendor to find anything.

David

spoiledbrat

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:52 am

#349

I actuallylike the idea, because it introduces more product diversification. I guess no body has a problem with this.

What most people "hate" is they have a feeling that this brings a"reduction" of experimentation possibilities, which IMO isnt true.

Well neverthelessa lot of people feel like this, argumentation doesnt affect their feelings, instead most of the nay-sayiers just say "dont do it" and offer no other solutions, which doesnt help anybody. Most people who are against the new craftings system havent tested it and are just repeating things they heard from "others".

So what alternative possibilities are there:

Maybea solutionwould be to keep thestructure andbasic function of the craftingsystem butintroduce morefactors on a object to experiment on, the crafterwould havemore options than now,but has to decide on what factors he/sheneeds to experiment on.

and/or

Keep the experimentation "spreading" system as it is, but make the quality of a product a lot more dependent on the skill and resource quality, this is already a part of the new craftings system, but make it more intense.

and/or

Makeitem repairment easier and safer, i.e. an item can be repaired by a crafter in the trade window, (slicing should be the same). The way it is now most people are afraid either to trade a valuable item to another person for slicing or repairing.

This would make people keep their items longer, the demand wouldnt be that high for new products which would result in price dropping.

and/or

Resources: they should be cheaper, because high prices on resources drive the price of the endproduct higher.

Harvesters should harvest more resources, they should take up less lots(!), and the products should use (qantitiy wise) less resources.

and/or

Vendors on the planetary map should only appear if their vendor is stocked and initialized.

and/or

Cut down all pay-outs on the mission terminals

and/or

Recheck the inlfux (i.e. mission terminals) and deflux (i.e. npc vehicle garages)of credits in and out of the player run economy. The amount should be equal.

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One of the few players without an interest of becoming a jedi and never unlocking since launch

jkray8472

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:57 am

#350

Yes, this will increase product diversification...but it will also greatly increase the "prenerf" market. We're sitll seeing "prenerf " Krayt FWG5s and Scatter Pistols on our server trickling down...

The prenerf market will be huge for months...that will wreak even more havoc on the economies....

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"Never piss off a healer. They know how you're put together...they can just as easily take you apart."
Kiarda Kismet
Master (in order) - Medic, Doctor, Teras Kasi, Smuggler, Carbinier, Marksman, Artisan, Architect, Combat Medic, Pistoleer, Scout, Squad Leader, Image Designer, Entertainer, Dancer, Brawler, Fencer, Merchant, Pikeman, Swordsman, Creature Handler, Rifleman, Ranger, Bounty Hunter, Commando, Musician. Droid Engineer.
Unlocked 6/5/04

XxMaddSeazyn

Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:58 am

#351

Was it just me that found "Still reading.... still thinking..." Condescending?

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The reason the Old Republic lost faith in the Jedi is because they watched Episode II

Development Cycle Archive

Thread: Understanding the Crafting Experimentation Changes