CUEmu - Thread Posts

Flatfingers

Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:14 pm

If we're going to rethink what Jedi do, we need to spend a little time thinking about who Jedi are. What is it about Jedi that really makes them distinct from everyone else, and how can we incorporate these differences into SWG?

I. GENERAL CONCEPTS

There is a simple and well-known two word sentence that tells you everything you need to know about Jedi: "Power corrupts."

Power is seductive; when you have it, you want more. For some people, power changes from being a means to some end to being an end in and of itself. Instead of using power to achieve a goal, power is used to gain more power. When this happens, the person or institution wielding that power has become corrupt.

What makes this corruption so seductive is that it's always so easy to rationalize the quest for more power. "Well, if [a dictatorship] works...." "Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

Some people are able to resist this temptation. For whatever reason, some people are so constituted as to recognize the importance of limits to individual power, and to voluntarily impose those limits on themselves, even at those times when greater power is most desirable.

Not everyone can be so strong. Sooner or later, everyone succumbs to the whispers... "Take your Jedi weapon and strike me down with all of your hatred." "I wasn't strong enough... but I promise, I won't fail again."

Power corrupts.

II. JEDI AND POWER

In the world of Star Wars, both these elements of power and choice are always present for a Jedi. Training in the Force confers ever greater power on a person, but with that power comes the responsibility of choice -- not merely of when and how to use the power of the Force, but the more difficult choice of when not to use it.

Those who choose restraint when temptation beckons remain Jedi. Those who yield take their first step down the path to the Dark Side.

Ultimately, being a Jedi is quite simple. The lessons take many forms, and can be painfully hard to learn, but in the end there are only two lessons.

The first and easier lesson is how to use the Force. The second and vastly more difficult lesson is when to use the Force. When you're a Jedi, every situation is an opportunity -- and a challenge -- to learn these two lessons.

Progression through the ranks of the Jedi is based on the student's demonstration of ability and understanding of these two lessons. Much attention is given to learning Force abilities and improving in their use. This obvious manifestation of the Force is what most people see, and what most Jedi novices focus on (since without ability there's nothing to control). But as a Jedi advances, he must begin to show restraint in the use of the Force and demonstrate that he understands why this restraint is necessary.

The Jedi trials are designed to test the Jedi's mastery of these two aspects of the use of the Force. Within each level, a Jedi is expected to learn and demonstrate ability in a defined set of skills. When the learner's teacher feels the student has advanced sufficiently to earn the next rank, a mastery test will be administered in which the student's understanding of when to use the Force is assessed along with proficiency. Students who fail to demonstrate a proper understanding of when and why to limit one's use of power, or who fail key proficiency tests, will not be advanced.

III. JEDI IN STAR WARS: GALAXIES

Bearing the above in mind, there are two sets of features that need to be implemented. One is the system of Jedi powers; this is already in the game and looks OK, so no need to change this. The other necessary feature is the set of trials designed to test the student's understanding of the proper use of Jedi powers.

The first item -- Force powers -- has already been implemented. But when to actually use these powers should also be considered when generating answers to the list of developer questions about Jedi.

Whole Quest Ideas
[deferred to a later discussion]

NPCs players might interact with throughout the quest
A Jedi goes wherever she's needed in the service of freedom. (Or, in the case of Dark Jedi, in the service of order through force.) In other words, there's no such thing as a "typical" Jedi interaction. Jedi must speak and work with people from all walks of life, from the high to the low, from warriors to scholars to crafters to entertainers, from kings to farmers and all points in between -- whatever it takes to accomplish their mission.

Progression quests and trial ideas
Typically a Jedi trial is a requirement for the student to confront some menace. In most cases this menace should take some external form that mirrors the student's greatest internal temptation. This will test the student's readiness to responsibly use the greater powers granted at the next level of mastery.

Within SWG, some of a player's typical behaviors should be recorded, then analyzed when a trial is needed. If a player has a habit of attacking anything and everything with his lightsaber no matter what his surroundings, the quest might be to locate and eliminate a monster threatening some villagers... except that the "monster" is actually just the manifested dreams of one of the village's children, and destroying the monster by whipping out one's lightsaber will cause the student to fail the test. (The correct answer would be to use Force Awareness to locate the true source of the disturbance, then use the appropriate non-combat Force power to solve the real problem.)

Similarly, a player whose typical reaction is to run from perceived danger might be required to risk death by actually battling a real monster. A player whose dedication to the Light side is to be tested should be required to refrain from use of the Force rescue friends or even to save her own life; a Dark side player would fail a test by showing mercy to a weaker opponent.

In all cases the test of Force understanding will take the form most likely to require the student to act against his nature (as determined by monitoring what the player typically does). Only when the student can control himself can he be trusted to control his use of the power of the Force.

What skills a Jedi might use on these quests
The usual lot: Force Awareness, Force Push, Force Pull, Force Speed, Force Heal, Force Reflection, Force Grip, Force Absorb, and Force Lightning are the ones that come to mind.

Quests for different profession types, for instance, social quests, explorer quests, combat quests, etc.
I don't think there should be different quests based on a player's other professions. Different types of quests for different types of other players are fine, but they should all be thought of and structured to be Jedi quests.

To paraphrase West Side Story: "When you're a Jedi, you're a Jedi all the way."

Player interdependencies and cooperations
[deferred to a later discussion]

Jedi Titles earned through the quests from Force Sensitivity to Jedi master

As noted by Vellas earlier: Guardian, Padawan, Sentinel, Scholar, Consular, Knight, Master, Savant, Dispatch, all with "Jedi" or "Force" stuck in front. In particular I'd like to see four separate lines (disciplines?) through the Jedi skills -- maybe Offensive (Grip, Lightning), Defensive (Reflection, Absorb), Manipulation (Push, Pull, Speed), and Sensitivity (Awareness, Healing). Each discipline would have its own trainee titles for each the four levels -- for example, the titles of the Sensitivity discipline (beyond the "Force Sensitive" novice skill box) might be:

Jedi Initiate -> Jedi Seeker -> Jedi Scholar -> Jedi Savant

Another possibility would be to restrict Force users from advancing more than one level above any existing level. That is, you wouldn't be able to learn a Level Two skill until you'd learned all four Level One skills. Additionally, once all Level One skills are learned it would be necessary to pass the appropriate trial to open up the Level Two skill boxes.

In this case, progression through the skill tree would be keyed to the well-known level titles (plus a new title for level 2):

Force Sensitive -> Jedi Padawan (1) -> Jedi ? (2) -> Jedi (3) -> Jedi Knight (4) -> Jedi Master

Still, it would be interesting to see Jedi recognized for something other than fighting prowess (although all Jedi should be required to demonstrate fighting skills). I find the notion of progressing from Jedi Scholar to Jedi Savant fascinating!

Looking forward to seeing more discussion of this....

--Flatfingers

Flatfingers

Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:20 pm

#262

Whoops -- forgot "Force Persuade" in that list of powers. File it under "Manipulation" skills....

mrj414

Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:27 pm

#263

i thought what was going to happen was that the holocrons would still be useful and the holocron would tell you a certain thing to do...like obtain a certain object, kill a certain person or go to a certain place, do a certain thing/quest/mission

ZebStokes

Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:43 pm

#264

I will post a poodoo-load of quest ideas here on Monday... but on seeing this thread...

PLEASE TAKE IDEAS FOR OTHER QUESTS, MISSIONS, and PROFESSION/FACTION ORIENTED ACTIVITIES!!!

Thanks,

Zeb

Zeb Stokes ....Sabbac, Pazzac, and Holo Chess...PLEASE!!!

Malcokherder

Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:25 pm

#265

My opinion is there is an association with how the holocrons were; for instance 4 holocrons and one silent, 4 levels to become a jedi and one major ending celebration quest that makes it more difficult. I would work with something like jedi fp or jedi exp. something like that gained over each quest done. Also make it randomly so not everyone is doing the same type of quest. Another thing i would say is have the a jedi trainer hidden differently on each planet, gives time for people to find them so they can reign onto their path of the jedi. When they do these quests i think they should be more depended upon one single person missions where if anyone helps the mission is terminated. With that you would have to consider preventing anyone else from taking your mission. I think they should deal with one person for in the movies the path of the jedi was never in a group you had the master and the padawan, that was it, no help or aid came from anyone but some support from the master. Continuing off of the idea that you do a mission for exp. each mission should have different difficulty levels, like the mission terminals, having the various difficulty levels you gain only a certain amount of exp for the completed mission. Another thing failure is could be accounted for, with major wounds to the HAM bars or loss of experience. To add more depth to the game they should create some mind boggling puzzles wether you go to some ancient tomb of the jedi and go and do ancient scripts for the innitiation of your journey starting as a jedi, example of this happening KOTOR with thevarious puzzles on yourjourney. What i want to see is the jedi system not easier but yet more fun to become for people might keep at it if it is hard just not when you do something over and over and over agian at a continuous rate, like grinding proffessions.Another idea i got is why not have for different type of quests, combat, explorer, will create your combo of what type of jedi you would become, guradian, sentinal, like KOTOR. With that it gives different statistics to what your jedi will be better at, using force, better defence against force, and etc. etc. etc.

Now i have not been playing this game very long and have not become jedi, i know a lot about the jedi proffession, not all, but i hope i got some good ideas. BY; (in game character on Bria) Wokity

dangermouse1

Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:05 pm

#266

guys pls take very special care to reward us people who are on our 20th profession and still going. We are determined and resolute. pls reward people accordingly on their efforts. It would be a great shame to finally loose people who have been so dedicated. remember also that the european servers have only been going for a short while and we havent had the time of the others to get as many professions. Pls take care to help us, other from that, quests sound great. many thanks

always outnumbered, never outgunned

Ommer

Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:15 pm

#267

The single problem I see with having Static Jedi "trainers" is that the number of player jedi will jump exponentially (who wouldn't want to be a jedi?). One way to diminish this threat is to have a random NPC, unlabeled or labeled randomly (ie. Revic Plovooc (a miner) or Jero Meninglas (a scholar) or simply a random name). These NPCs would spawn randomly in a world (with a slight tendancy towards cities) for a period of approximately 2 hours. Once a Player character talks to these NPC, that PC becomes "force sensitive" amd is then directed to his or her first force training quest.

Jedi quests should be varied, with jedi quests being of the delivery, avoidance, rescue, escort, and mitigation types. Dark jedi quests should be of the attack, showdown, sabotage, and bigotry missions. An example of each type will be below...

Light Jedi Missions...

Delivery: An obvious delivery mission, but always with positive connotations as to the positive nature of the Jedi. Things to be delivered could be holocrons (non-functional of course), medical supplies, equiptment to aid the rebellion, jus random positive things, and these missions would be worth less Jedi Experiance.

Avoidance: In light of the new Jedi Hunting Bounty hunters, a trainer should be able to give a jedi warning if he or she has been marked, if the Jedi successfully avoids or defeats the Bounty hunter, that player should get a significant amount of Jedi Experience

Rescue: This mission should put the Jedi in a situation where a group of enemies (stormtroopers perhaps) would be harassing or attacking a single, defenseless person. The jedi would either persuade the Stormies to go away, or defeat them and save the victim, earning a moderate amount of jedi Exp.

Escort: These should be fairly basic missions calling for the Jedi to escort a NPC to a certain locale, while prevent attacks on that NPC.

Mitigation: These missions call for the Jedi to act as a mitigator between two feuding parties. These missions could be mostly conversation based and would require the jedi to use his or her role playing, and logic skills to bring an acceptable agreement to both parties. The amount of experience would depend on how satisfactory the agreement is. If both parties are satisfied, the Jedi earns alot of experience. If one party is dissatisfied, the jedi earns a moderate amount of experience. If both parties are dissatisfied, but agree, the jedi earns a minimal amount fo Experience. If both parties are completely dissatisfied, and attack each other, the jedi earns no EXP.

Dark Jedi MIssions...

Attack: Basic attack missions, calling for the destruction of a marticular foe or structure.

Showdown: These are similar to the Jedi Avoidance missions, but the Dark Jedi would have no option for running away. The dark jedi would have to kill the bounty hunter in order to complete the mission. Killing the bounty hunter makes a jedi unmarkable for a period of 3 days.

Sabotage: These missions would require a Dark Jedi to destroy an object or a structure associated with the Rebellion, the Dark Jedi could possibly gain Imperial Faction points as well from this quest.

Bigotry: These missions would require the Dark Jedi to eradicate a certain number of NPCs or PCs of a certain race. The race cannot be the same race as the Dark Jedi.

JerYnkFan

Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:19 pm

#268

This is my two cents on the subject:

1) The path everyone takes to becoming a Jedi should be different. No static spawns, no linear quests, etc. I know it is hard to it completely random for everyone but it should be as much as possible.

2) I agree that the components to build the saber are WAY too expensive. You should be able to get one from a trainer or other Jedi NPC. It may not be top quality but at least usuable until you can build up some cash to make your own.

3) Also it should take a LONG time to complete the path to become a Jedi or at least FS. No one week and I am a Jedi woo-hoo!!!

4)Holocron and profession grinding should be part of an option not a requirement.

5) Casual gamers and power gamers alike shouldhave an equal chance of openingup the slot.I wouldn't mind a limit on Jedi "points" earnedper day. So no 24 hour macro power gamers abusing the system. It's bad enoughI have enough "I rule your**s" geeks running around trying to show how uber they own you because they play 24/7.

mh307

Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:36 pm

#269

they should be lenghty andchallenging but should be able to be done by someone who is a master chef master merchant novice dancer

it should give you certain missions based on your profession

there should be specific missions for each prof and also semi general missions

-Biana

Onikojuno__N__[ONE SEXY ZABRAK]
ABK Correspondent
Spammer • Trash Talker • Man Wh0re

www.TKC-Community.net

Yosho_Tarien

Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:51 pm

#270

First of all, if you're planning something along the lines of the badge of intellect, drop it. That mess was insane. We should not have dozens of people tramping around in the middle of nowhere, stirring up no end of spawn while they're at it, and scrambling at every camp site they see. Bad idea.

I like the idea of using the holocron, and indestructable version, to give out the appropriate quests/missions/jedi themeparks. Put some randomness inso you won't have everyone trying to do the same quest at the same time. Also, using the holocron will give players the assurance that they are on the right track. Nobody wants to run all over the galaxy not knowing which quests are jedi related and which are not. I would recommend that the holocron only give one quest at a time, which you will either complete or fail. Why not bring in the invisible force xp bar that players once theorized? At the completion of a quest, points are added. Failing a quest may remove points. If you complete a mission, the next one may be more difficult, but have a higher value. If you fail, the next mission will be easier, but will be worth less.

It would add interest if there was a personality and an ongoing storyline within the holocron. Some missions might simply have to do with assisting NPC's (light) or the persuit of greater conquests (dark). But there should be some that deal with assisting hidden jedi. These might include things like repairing equipment, roleplaying a part to smuggle them past the troopers, helping them defend a POI, delivering a message or a package which might count as contraband. Perhaps you would have to do a certain number of missions for the bothan spy net before they reveal any hidden jedi to you.

Eventually one of these hidden jedi will offer to unlock part of your holocron so you can continue to train in a different area. If you started with mostly artisan quests, the jedi might unlock your medical quests or scouting quests. Separating these into different areas of training will help the players, because nobody wants to have to build a house for one quest and then kill a krayt on the very next one.

You activate the holocron. A robed figure appears before you and begins to speak.

"You wish to learn more about the jedi? There is little that I can teach you. Your sense of the force is limited. However, there is alibrarian in Mos Eisley who may help you."

To add a bit of fun there could be a noticeable difference between the jedi and sith holocrons.

You activate the holocron. A robed figure appears before you and begins to speak.

"You again?Still trying togain the secrets of my power?Your grasp of the force is pathetic. Perhaps you should look to Dathomir and take a few lessons from those witches. If I'm lucky you might even get killed and I will fall into the hands of someone more worthy of my advice."

Hida Riken, Kettemoor - Pink Teras Kasi
Hovanoi Riken'lar, Kettemoor - Bartender
Fasma Tarien, Valcyn - Wallflower

Long Live the Teras Kasi!
It's the community stupid!

adam_himself

Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:56 pm

#271

I think

adam_himself

Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:06 pm

#272

^ Sorry about that my browser went screwy

I think the holocrons should still be involved within the jedi system. Although, not in the way they are now. Why not make it so the holocrons give advice to the location, type etc of the quest. As you find the quest-givers they could give you smaller quests that would lead up to your bigger quest on your path to jedi. Also why not have your player slowly become force senstive as apposed to mastering 4 combat professions then finally finishing off artisan to find you've unlocked your FS slot? When i say slowly build up i mean, as you work though the quests why not get trained in a small but, nether the less force senstive act. For example a small combat technique a force push with the ability to knock someone down without the use of a huge ball of lightening

leaving your opponnantconfused and dazzed to why he fell over. As mentioned before i agree with the idea of Light Side and Dark Side points like on Knights Of The Old Republic.

I realise most of this has been said before in the previous 10 pages or so but i couldnt miss the chance at getting my word in like everyone else

Adam

rogi

Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:20 pm

#273

How about letting light and dark jedi hunt eachother somehow, outside gcw tefs. Jedi xp as reward.

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Thread: IC4: Path of the Jedi