Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Weekly Roundtable Discussion (Week Ending 4-12-04)
gm_al wrote:
Hmmmmm... my first post here on those boards.
Been playing avidly since November and allow me to do a quick recap on how things evolve.
THINGS ARE GOING WRONG AT AN INCREASED PACE.
To me its clear the marketing guys look to push out new content and are more interested in selling the upcoming space expansion then in fixing problems. ("Give them a few new tasks every month to keep 'em busy" - and PAYING....) They fail to realise that large parts of the community are getting really upset with the total ignorance of large parts of the players concerns.
We like to have new dungeons and expansions, new quests etc. but plz start at last to realise that more then anything else WE WANT BUGFIXES.- address and repair the "core bugs" and tons of annoying smaller bugs before putting even more effort and money into adding new stuff.
As a project manager working in the game industry and creator of a rather large gaming community I dare to say I know what Im talking about. I tend not to speak up too much and spam the boards with "ideas" no one will listen to anyways, but guys you are REALLY taking SWG into the wrong direction.
Someone once said that SWG is a 2nd generation MMORPG, but that 3rd gen MMORPGs are already lurking through the door. Guess you will have a hard time if some good brand comes up with a rather solid engine.... and I hate to say more people seem to be leaving then coming already.
Dont get me wrong - I love SWG and to me its a milestone for the massive multiplayer scene. But maybe it was just too - ambitious. The complexity of interaction and the sheer unbelievable amount of content seems to be no longer manageable by the devs. And instead of trying to fix everything before taking the next step they keep pushing out "add-ons".
Last word of advice before I shut up: every new line of code adds new bugs.
That is a very astute set of observations.
What is seen as "improvement" of communication by a few in the last few months is feels like more of a distancing to many of us.
This came up in the Droid Engineer forum recently - I am sure TH works very hard, but I guess in the end it's his very position that is part of the issue, not him. There is a great trend lately to pushing us toward our correspondents, but that doesn't work for several reasons - chief of which is the fact that many people feel, rightly so, that the corrrespondent system puts up just an additional level of red tape just to get a concern heard. It has to get the attention of a correspondent, be sent on to the correspondent boards, TH (who has to learn the game system at the same time) has to see and understand it, TH has to contact someone on the inside of the Dev team. If he gets a reply, it has to be written, rewritten, approved, rewritten again, approved again...by the time everyone gets their hands on it it resembles a Hollywood script for a big-budget summer movie - it's just had the input/approval/disaporoval of so many people that by the time we get it it's very tough to see what's actually there, sometimes, and often our original concern has been through so many games of "telephone" that it doesn't even really resemble what we were originally trying to convey as an issue. That's if it gets replied to - more often than not it simply goes unanswered.
Finally, this last round of "Top 5" lists is really, really starting to get me down. I think someone in the DE forum (Darker?) put it best:
(existing bug list) - (fixes) + (new bugs) = (new list of bugs we need fixed)
However, at this point, unless something went really wrong along the way, someone on the "inside" should have these lists, right? We've made them many times before. That's where I get really discouraged - because almost ten months into the game, we are asked to do "triage" with our issues - make a choice between which bug we want fixed/addressed/etc. Many of us feel they should ALL be a priority, and we shouldn't have to campaign to get a small issue fixed - someone on the inside should WANT it fixed, and make it a priority because it's a bug in their game. It seems as if that isn't enough to get something fixed, it must be a huge issue and have tons of noise about it to even get it considered. It's like being forced to choose between food and water as a player - it's a choice you shouldn't have to make.
I know it's a monumental task - but one that should have been fully expected by anyone who signed up to work on this project. I mean, there are so many bugs that are still hanging around, since beta, that it feels like at this point will never be addressed - new content is being put in the game that is "bugged" (the themepark loot with outdated skill mods that haven't existed since beta) without much concern.
Last week in this thread I was told broken themepark loot (which was just added two publishes ago) wasn't currently being looked at, and I should go to the core systems forum and get it on a top 5 list. I sort of felt like I was being told to write my congressman to complain that the street sign in front of my house was misspelled - when an error like that is made, you would think the people that made it would want to rectify it, just as an issue of pride if nothing else. What makes this more sad is that so many people don't realize it's broken. People have paid 100's of 1000's (and more) credits for stuff that doesn't work - a bandolier that has +5 grenade experimentation isn't going to do anything for anyonesince the grenade experimentation skill hasn't existed since early in beta.
The base of the problem is that they are adding so many new bugs it feels with every bit of new content we get (which is why I am glad they have held back the Corvette for so long, to be honest, hopefully they will avoid adding bugs there), the frequency of new bugs seems to outweigh the ones that were fixed, making it feel as if with each patch we have moved the proverbial one step forward, two steps back.
I think the changes that need to be made are three-fold :
- Communication lines need to be truly opened and information more freely exchanged - it often feels like we are dealing with a government agency. 90% of the ill-will on these boards is due to lack of or mis-communication. It's really that simple. It's time for the Devs to stop saying we hurt their feelings so they don't post in certain forums or on certain issues, and step up to the plate :put out current, accurate information that hasn't been filtered to nothing, and keep us informed of changes being made that will effect our professions and gameplay. Surprising uswith "good" things is fun, surprise with "bad" things is not, especially when we find out after the fact they were intentional. It's a double edged sword, but the Dev's are forging the blade : one one hand, yes, we take every bit of information (usually a sentence or two) that they give us, and run with it - simply because it's all we get! If we had constant, open dialouge we wouldn't have to constantly refer back to a single statement made months ago - we'd know what was going on in the present. The "players will eat us alive if we don't implement it after we've said it" is a misnomer - if you bounced actual ideas off of us and not general directions, the whole process would take an entirely different air. It's not in our hands, guys - the ball is totally inthe Devscourt.
- They need to somehow delay/intergrate new features and really work on the core bugs. Almost 10 months into live play, we still have the /sit bug. The combat balance is MIA for the time being, and no longer can people in broken combat professions live on the future of "it will be in the combat balance". I don't know ANYONE who wouldn't say, "Hold back new features for a publish, and make it one huge bug-hunt" and be happy with the results if they finally could get even partially caught up on the growing list of bugs.
- They need to hire some additional QA/fact checkers. Something like the broken themepark loot should have never made it in game - someone along the line should have been checking the skill mods, making sure the stats were valid, etc. - it simply should not have ever made it in the game in that state - it was a MAJOR feature of that publish. This isn't isolated - it seems to happen quite often in one form or another, and I think they simply need to have more bodies in a room getting paid to find problems in the game BEFORE they make it out to live servers. Increase the subscription fee $1 a month to pay for it - our collective reduced frustration would be well worth it.
SWG is at a very tricky place right now. In some respects, I wish people hadn't said as many times as we have, "I'm here until space..." because I almost feel like that has reduced the pressure to fix the core issues with the game. I mean, if it ain't fixed by the SE, what are the chances it will be addressed anytime soon after? I have a feeling we'll be getting a new expansion pack every six months or so with new planets, etc. - if that starts to happen, it feels as if these old, nagging bugs that keep getting new entries every patch and mini-publish, will be long forgotten and just an accepted "way of the game".
I truly hope that the Development team finds the balance between communication and action soon. When we get action, we get little communication about it; during times of lack in action, we get slightly better communication but with no action accompaning it to make it meaningful. In both cases, it stinks to be us - it seems like more and more people I know in-game or from the boards are leaving every day, and these bugs and communications issues are what I hear cited most often as their reason for giving up - they don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, and to even the most ardent fans there is barely a flicker of a candle in sight.
SWG could be truly revolutionary if it were not so marred by the little things, which in turn add up to be the big things. No one (or at least very few people) are here because they like to complain, or think it's funny to say bad things about the game because it gets them their jollies. People are here because they love Star Wars, see the almost limitless potential of the game - but that hope will not last forever, as we have seen in the last few months, unless something drastic happens to address the on-going issues before trying to take the game further; it doesn't matter how pretty a house you put up if the foundation is cracked and breaking apart, or parts of it simply missing - no one is going tostay in the house if theyare constantly worried thatthe ground is going to fall out from under them.
AO
What is being done about this major exploit?
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=jedi&message.id=308233&highlight=logout#M308233
This exploit, with it's associated HOW-TO, has been posted since 3-16, with no response from anybody in authority.
This exploit, with it's associated HOW-TO, has been posted since 3-16, with no response from anybody in authority.
Hey, they deleted the thread, what more do you want? Obviously nobody will find out how to do it now!
This exploit, with it's associated HOW-TO, has been posted since 3-16, with no response from anybody in authority.
Hey, they deleted the thread, what more do you want? Obviously nobody will find out how to do it now!
I made a Word document from it, for reference.
Everybody in the Jedi profession knows how to do this now.
Next in line, the Imperial Confiscation of Jedi Housing, and the removal of the /transfer structure command.
Hiding in houses needs to either be stopped, or a method of Bounty Hunters pursuing these targets to be able to kick the door down and enter, via search warrant, or other interesting and immersive method.
Hiding in housing, which Jedi are not supposed to have in their possession, was the first exploit and needs to be addressed. If they choose to continue AFK macroing ontheir balcony, then a method of getting to them is in order.
/transfer structure is completely necessary in the game.Mayors of the bestplanned cities do not grant zoning rights. They place the house and transfer it.
The friends list should not work as it does. If I'm anonymous only people who I have in my friends list should see me in theirs. /who & friendslist are anti-RP tools.
AltharXXX wrote:
/transfer structure is completely necessary in the game.Mayors of the bestplanned cities do not grant zoning rights. They place the house and transfer it.
The friends list should not work as it does. If I'm anonymous only people who I have in my friends list should see me in theirs. /who & friendslist are anti-RP tools.
Another solution must be found then.
And this situation is also a major exploit. Self-buffing by alt characters, by logging in the Doctor alt while the Jedi avatar is still in the geometry.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=jedi&message.id=334253
Here is a guy actually complaining that he can do this publically, and says he deserves his own self-jedi-buffing ability.
SmakU-Awound wrote:
I'm of the opinion that it does not make sense to the "fun" players should be having that the best pets a CH can have (outside of BE) are so rare that no one is willing to use them.
Frenzied Graul and Bull Rancors are not even spawning anymore as far as most of us can tell, and if they are spawning, it is so miniscule in number as to be the same as never spawning for practical purposes. By limiting the spawn on these creatures you have created an extreme supply deficit that has the pets selling for 5-10 million + credits. We know you don't like markets like that from your previous attempts to limit holocrons, so why let it exist with high level pets?
Please increase the spawn rate of these creatures so players can actually USE them, not just get them to begin with. They've become trophies as they are and not usable creatures.
As masters of our profession we should have the sameaccess to high quality "weapons" in a similar form to "loot drops" (e.g. "loot drops" are equivelent to "rare baby spawns") that other professions enjoy.
Oh, and add some creatures that can be tamed that are between DL60 and DL70 as level 70 is our cap, it would be nice to use it on something other than BE pets that cost 250,000 credits plus.
So you really make me post again.... 
Well done AO, we share the same feelings and seem to see how and possibly why things are going the wrong way.
The more Im looking at it, the more Im convinced the "management" is taking over things in SWG. Now I have witnessed this same process in lots of other projects/games, and it never was for the good of things in the end. Famous examples (for those that are game-maniacs like me) is Magic the Gathering Online (MTGO): meant to be the online extension of a working and well-selling brand it got worse with every new release and version. After almost two years they are still not able to handle server load and the game crashes so often it really takes the fun out of everything. Yet they keep releasing new sets of cards every three months, adding even more bugs..... does this sound familiar ??
I dont envy the TECHIES at SWG. It seems management is setting the wrong priorities all along:
* make the game "look good" (ie. add new mounts - useful ? why ? it just needs to look cool)
* add new content to keep people "happy" (thats what they think they are achieving)
* meet the deadlines for expansions like SE ("we want to SELL things")
etc.
It also seems internal communication and decsion making is totally out of order at SWG. If it takes a chain of10 people to allow something to maybe be changed it will simply never happen. Poor TH... presenting "the players wishes" and seemingly not getting anything back then a mild smile from the management. Clever move btw - TH gets all the fire and blame from the angry players, simply because he is the only guy they know and can eventually talk to.
Let me tell you
We dont need powerless correspondents that keep collecting the bugs, we actually need a SWAT team to get rid of them !!
The last publishes were all quite dissapointing. High expectations that resulted in very low returns - "droid invasion" ? You gotta be kidding, the DEs are leaving the game in masses. More looks like "Publish x - what are we going to nerf today ?"
And to finish off my daily rant Id like to look at a few things on a larger scale. The whole point of a good game is to keep the BALANCE of all elements, and this holds especially true for MMORPGs:
* the economy in SWG is utterly failing - the constant influx of money is in no way balanced with what I have to spend daily
* professions are poorly balanced in their use and costs. I hate to see half of the people just going for the CM/Rifleman combo or doing the cheap TKA path (TKA is good in what its meant to be - the most powerful infighter - but its a joke on how easy you can get to be a master there)
* PVP and the GCW are not really what they should be - SWG is not fulfilling half of the potential it has in this area. I want to see more professions playing a role in the whole war, not reducing SWG to a first-person shooter between 3 professions.
* core bugs and exploits increase the unbalancing further (ie. vehicle bug - why repair my vehicle ? etc. etc.) Especially WELL-KNOWN exploits are making us angry - why keep repeating them month after month if they never get fixed ? "Go make a TOP-5 list - this will keep ya busy and we will have a good laugh at your efforts"
* customer support is a joke. If you cant handle thousands of players and their requests dont give us the possibilities to articulate ourselves and present you whats wrong - to me its like "Yes we love your feedback ! Just dont think we will take it for real - hey we get thousands of emails every day and only have 2 underpaid peeps to look at them. All they have time for is replying with standardized answers !"
Wake up devs - kick the marketing department and get down to make the CURRENT game a better experience. YOU make the game - the others are just trying to SELL it.
Hmmm... Nothing really new at all in anything in here.
Like, why not ever get around to just fixing Pistoleer Special Moves yet?