Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Crafting Critical Failure Rates
krashnik
Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:42 am
#157
Hello everyone. I'd just like to give my input on the Crafting situation. I ama Master Aritsan living in Corellia, Lowca.
In my experimentation, I have found that high malleability results in better experimentation, which seems very logical. (If this was just coincidence, then devs - take note) But when thinking about it, if you mine some steel that is 999 OQ but only 250 Malle, then it's going to be hard to take that excellent ore and mold it into anything. Therefor, It is not of much value in complicated items. I have also found that the functionality rating of the crafting stations players are making are PATHETIC. The best I've seen is a functionality rating of around 43. We don't know what this is in comparison to. Does the scale go to 100? Or is 50 optimal? It's evident that a 15.00 crafting tool is optimal, but the best I can craft is a 14.91. So, using my 14.91 crafting tool and one of these 43 crafting stations, I still get just as many critical errors as the next guy. But.... When I traveled to Dathomir.. there is a weapon/droid crafting station there that only has one bar of Risk when crafting vehicles. I use vehicles as my base comparison. If you check on the risk value (located to the right of the picture of the object as light blue bars stacked atop each other) while crafting a vehicle by the Coronet starport, you'll notice 6 bars. At the 43 crafting stations, I have noticed there are 2 bars. But at the one in Dathomir I only get 1 bar of Risk and this seems to me more efficient. Again, all this may just be coincidence, but that's my experimentation. And I've crafted hundreds of vehicles to give you some reference.
Summarizing my ideas for failure %:
Risk factor on crafting stations
Functionality of Crafting tool/station
Whether you are sitting down or not
Skill level of character
And Malleability should be very important
Krash Kompany, LLC
Charm, Corellia
Cafa
Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:53 am
#158
Trystan1969 wrote:
4% critical failures sounds a bit high for someone who is a master. I think that is the biggest problem people see.
I'm a master doctor that crafts each enhancement pack each time I need one. The biggest problem I have with critical failures in both the combine phase and the experimental phase is the fact that I need 2 different components from factory crates. Also, at master level, there should be very little, if any, critical failures. Someone at the top of the profession should know what they're doing to avoid any failures.
I know I'm gonna get the swing on this, but as an architect it also peeves me that I have +15 tool, +44.3 stations, assembly tapes, experimentation tapes, and I get 4 out of 10 ASSEMBLY crits. When almost any other profession crits they lose some resources. Crits for 3 city halls in a row at assembly (before the patch for architects) almost left me broke. THREE CRITS IN A ROW. That's over 82,304 resources guys per crit for a total of 246,912 raw resources in less than 5 minutes. While we like to try and mine our own resources most of the alum and copper in that I have to purchase at 4+ cpu. 60 walls bye bye. Unreal. This is not a 4.49% assembly crit rate.
And I cannot get 2assemblies of harvestors experiementation in a row without a crit somewhere. Which has lead to me do my entire business through factories, which has lead to me almost requiring huge amounts of resources for profitable factory runs, which has lead to massive storage issues, which has lead to me just using a vendor for storage just to assemble and deliver my products to people.
All the problems definitely connect to this issue, in my opinion. I have a TKA and if he missed this much in combat he'd be dead, a lot! From my experience crit assemblies run around 35% and crit experimentation runs around 45% for architect. Again, +15 tools, +44.3 stations, +10 assembly tapes, +15 experimentation tapes.
Clarity would be appreciated. And when you do averages for all assemblies on the server please remove camps, which anyone would tell you automatically skew the results due to their wide usage and low complexity.
Fivo Asia
Rakor
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:02 am
#159
I'm a MA/MDE last night while trying to make a basic droid brain I had 5 critical failures in a row. All these were while I was using my +39 crafting staion. So I went outside and used my droid. And didn't have another critical failure.
Flatfingers
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:12 am
#160
I've just remembered two other factors that could and possibly should apply to the success rates in assembly and experimentation: current Mind points and racial bonuses.
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that I should tend to have more critical failures in assembly or experimentationif my current Mind score is low. If Mind values are truly supposed to reflect a physical condition (rather than just being a convenient third HAM number we could have called "mblzyk"), then a low Mind value should indicate either lack of creativity (on an absolute scale) or mental exhaustion (on a relative scale).
In other words, if my character starts off with a low maximum Mind score, that should mean that he's just not too bright, and should usuallyfindit more difficult than other characters to succeed attasks requiring mental dexterity. That's what I mean by an "absolute" Mind value. By a "relative" Mind value I mean the number of Mind points anyone has below their maximum. Even someone who starts the day as a genius is going to have trouble being creative if they're mentally exhausted.
So -- when considering Mind values in crafting, I would suggest that no modifications to the basic calculation be made until the current Mind value drops below 500, or theratio of a character's current Mind points to his maximum possible drops below 25%. Once either of these things happens, the rate of critical failures (possibly the entire range of crafting results) should begin to increase (up to some reasonable maximum rate).
The other possible factor is a character's racial bonuses. This isn't as clear-cut as Mind points, but it is an opportunity to help differentiate the various races in SWG (assuming that's a developer goal).
If racial abilities matter then Mon Calamari and possibly Zabraks (due to their higher-than-the-humanoid-average mentalabilities)could enjoy a reduction in their critical failure rates. Perhapstheabsolute minimum failure rate could be reduced for these races; that would be an appropriate "science-fictiony" kind of ability modification to suggest that members of these races are innately less susceptible to the effects of lapses in concentration that (notionally) are responsible for critical failures. (Naturally the other races' innate abilities should alsooffer reductions in exposure to certain bad effects, while humans should receive the maximum number of available pool points to convey the notion of human "adaptability.")
So the list of potential factors I'd like to see usedin determiningcritical failure rates (and possibly in determining the exact spread of allcrafting result percentages)now looks like this:
- crafter's assembly/experimentation skill points
- crafted item complexity
- crafting tool effectiveness
- crafting station effectiveness
- quality of resources and subcomponents
- crafter's current Mind points (absolute and relative)
- crafter's race
--Flatfingers
Cafa
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:15 am
#161
mmaughme wrote:
Solo4114 wrote:
For my money, the issue is less with critical failures and more with what "moderate success" and "success" mean.
Good point. I should clarify my message above, in which I mentioned 40 bio-tissues, half of which failed. Of the half that failed, 4-5 were assembly failures. The remainder I consider failures for any result less than "Good Success". So I had 15-16 in this range.
Having a RL friend who plays a BE, I'm just shocked. That's overwhelming, IMO, for what it takes to get the components and I know because I finance the hunts!
Fivo Asia
fgetce
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:19 am
#162
I suggest making it a two failure check.
The first check is to see if you fail or not and how bad. If it is a critical failure, or fumble as us role players call it, than a second check should be made to see if we lose none, some or all of the components which can be modified by the skill level of the crafter to a point where there is a 1% chance to lose everything, a 4% chance to lose randomly some components and a 95% chance of not losing any of the components.
Resources, however,should be loston a critical failure, but the components should have a second chance to be ok so they can be reused.
Also the percentage of higher success should be based on skill of the crafter. Like a 1/5 chance based on total crafter skill of gaining critical success. A crafter with a crafting score of +110 would have a 22% chance of gaining a "Amazing Success". This could be even increased if the developers feel that is to high to 1/6, 1/7, or even 1/8 of the crafters skill as the chance of a critical success. That would be a nice reward for going through the process of crafting and becoming a master crafter.
Cafa
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:22 am
#163
R2DADROID wrote:
Chrysalide wrote:
[snip]
Please feel free to continue the discussion on this topic, as we will continue to check on the thread and review the feedback.
As always, thanks!
Jeff "Chrysalide" Carpenter
Developer
Thank you, Chyrsalide.
This is exactly the kind of communication we've wanted to get from the developers for 7 months.I hope we can expect morelike thisfrom now on.
Let me be more BLUNT.
Bless you Jeff, or whatever manager had the courage to finally let one of you talk to us like human adults. It's much appreciated.
Ralfire
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:25 am
#164
To whom it may concern
I just did my own test. Out of 5 attemps to make pets, I had 2 critical failures, 2 without any failures and 1 with 2 failures while crafting. So I am at a 50% failure rate. I lost 10 DNA samples and armor on the 1 sample.
Efin ackchaw
Ecilpse
Droid_Engineer_Rho
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:26 am
#165
Chrysalide,
There's actually a LOT of that around the boards. Your player base is intelligent, dedicated, and hard-working, and it seems to be a rarity when the development team takes advantage of this fact. Frankly it makes your own jobs more difficult if you don't spend some time reading what many folks here have to say.
We ALL want this to be the best game it can be: You because it's a creation on which you work, us because we pay for it, and spend our valuable free time on it.
There's actually a LOT of that around the boards. Your player base is intelligent, dedicated, and hard-working, and it seems to be a rarity when the development team takes advantage of this fact. Frankly it makes your own jobs more difficult if you don't spend some time reading what many folks here have to say.
We ALL want this to be the best game it can be: You because it's a creation on which you work, us because we pay for it, and spend our valuable free time on it.
EnzoQ
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:35 am
#166
I don't know about any of the other Master Architects out there... but when I'm making crafting stations, I have a 50% critical failure rate on the assembly phase. Literally.
Just the other day I was making schematics for all of the different crafting stations. Using a 40.12 rated Structure and Furniture Crafting Station and a 15.00 rated Structure and Furniture Crafting Tool, I started with the General Item etc etc etc Crafting Station. With a stationand tool of basically the highest ratings available,not to mention myMaster Architect modifiers coming into play, I shouldn't have a chance in hell ofhaving critical failures, right?The first attempt: poof! Critical failure! Oh well, bad luck, must've been in that 0.01% of the probablility... Second attempt went off without a hitch, and I got my schematic. I started on a Food and Chem Crafting Station, not expecting anything to happen... but lo and behold, the first attempt at this one failed, and the second time went just fine. The exact same thing happened with the other two types of stations.
I have since made about 20 custom-crafted stations for various people, and each time, my first attempt at crafting one of these things fails.
I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary with the crafting though... as a Master Artisan and Master Architect I rarely fail on anything else I make, just crafting stations.
MeleKaliki
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:38 am
#167
First off.. Great communication Chrysalide, I don't think you realize just HOW MUCH that kind of thing effects us. It's a "Good Thing"(tm)
I've read through most of the posts and wanted to say a couple things:
- In my experience there is absolutely a connection between lag and failures. 100% sure of this..
- Criticals don't really add anything to the game. They just kill your crafters spirits. Some people have suggested that we retrieve some of the components back or whatnot after a crit, But I think the better solution is drop criticals all together. Just increase the chance of a lower (or MUCH lower quality item) by oh.. say 4%?
Most crafters will just throw away those "failures" anyway. Like people say. Unless it's "very good" it's basically "useless".
But if I was crafting a very complicated item. I'd rather have a crappy version to to sell cheap to at least re-coup SOME of what I lost. This seems far more realistic to me, especially for Masters who really should NEVER crit anyway.
-- Pome Stepi (Chilastra) Master Artisan (and others)
I've read through most of the posts and wanted to say a couple things:
- In my experience there is absolutely a connection between lag and failures. 100% sure of this..
- Criticals don't really add anything to the game. They just kill your crafters spirits. Some people have suggested that we retrieve some of the components back or whatnot after a crit, But I think the better solution is drop criticals all together. Just increase the chance of a lower (or MUCH lower quality item) by oh.. say 4%?
Most crafters will just throw away those "failures" anyway. Like people say. Unless it's "very good" it's basically "useless".
But if I was crafting a very complicated item. I'd rather have a crappy version to to sell cheap to at least re-coup SOME of what I lost. This seems far more realistic to me, especially for Masters who really should NEVER crit anyway.
-- Pome Stepi (Chilastra) Master Artisan (and others)
Droid_Engineer_Rho
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:58 am
#168
MeleKaliki wrote:
First off.. Great communication Chrysalide, I don't think you realize just HOW MUCH that kind of thing effects us. It's a "Good Thing"(tm)
I've read through most of the posts and wanted to say a couple things:
- In my experience there is absolutely a connection between lag and failures. 100% sure of this..
- Criticals don't really add anything to the game. They just kill your crafters spirits. Some people have suggested that we retrieve some of the components back or whatnot after a crit, But I think the better solution is drop criticals all together. Just increase the chance of a lower (or MUCH lower quality item) by oh.. say 4%?
Most crafters will just throw away those "failures" anyway. Like people say. Unless it's "very good" it's basically "useless".
But if I was crafting a very complicated item. I'd rather have a crappy version to to sell cheap to at least re-coup SOME of what I lost. This seems far more realistic to me, especially for Masters who really should NEVER crit anyway.
-- Pome Stepi (Chilastra) Master Artisan (and others)
I make droids, and experimentation isn't very important in my current career. However, back when I was a powerup merchant, I tossed ANYTHING that wasn't 100% great success. Good success or moderate success or good success are ALL viewed as a form of failure.
Droid_Engineer_Rho
Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:59 am
#169
*sigh* added a 'good' there, one of those should just be plain old 'success'.
"Your experiment was a success" is NOT a good thing, it's a very bad thing.
"Your experiment was a success" is NOT a good thing, it's a very bad thing.