Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-12: Combat Roles; Rifleman
In a galaxy far, far away, it is a time of civil war. The Empire has taken control over the galaxy and attempted to build the ultimate battle station to enforce the will of the Emperor. The rebellion destroyed the fearsome Death Star and this galactic conflict is at its peak.
In Massively Multiplayer combat, each profession should have a distinct role. Each role should help define the profession and have a relationship with its abilities in combat. In popular fantasy games, wizards cast ranged spells, warriors are “tanks”, and clerics “heal”. Each archetype has a specific role in combat and they all depend on each other for success. Additionally, each role gives any particular player group a unique feel depending on how many of each type is involved in a group and the role they play when combat gets tough.
In a science-fiction oriented game, those traditional roles aren’t so clear cut. Most skills and abilities are redundant because of balance issues, which take away from the unique feel of the profession. Many players have stated that they would like to see SWG professions have a more unique feel to them and we would like to know what your thoughts are.
Some basic balance considerations are:
* Ranged and Melee Professions
In SWG, a key thing to consider about each profession and its role in combat is that there are many ranged combat classes and many melee combat classes. Each ranged combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “ranged” abilities that helps distinguish them from other ranged combat professions, and likewise, each melee combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “tanking” or melee abilities that helps distinguish them from other melee professions.
* Redundant vs. Unique Abilities
There are two basic set of combat skills any profession should have. The first are Redundant Abilities. These are abilities that either most or all combat professions posses, in other words, “everyman combat skills”. The second set of combat skills a profession should posses are Unique Abilities. Unique abilities are the abilities that give a profession its unique feel in combat. In other words, it defines the profession and its role in combat.
* Game Space
Another basic concept to keep in mind when thinking about combat professions and their role in combat is Game Space. The next big consideration for assessing combat abilities is where the combat takes place. There are indoor spaces and outdoors spaces. Indoor spaces would be dungeons, bases and the like and outdoor spaces would be wilderness and/or city spaces.
* PvP and PvE
In SWG, players can choose between PvE and PvP playstyles and even shift back and forth to play in elements of both. PvE is “Player versus Environment” and basically deals with fighting computer controlled enemies in combat. PvP is “Player versus Player” and is real players fighting real players and tends to be very tricky because anytime something in game is at stake (like faction equipment, etc), it is important to keep things fair and balanced, but also fun.
* Profession Lifespan
What is the profession’s role in its novice state and how should the skill progress over the course of a player’s time investment in the profession? At all times any given profession should have a distinct role and value in combat. As a player progresses from Novice to Master, the profession should reflect something special about the profession and also be fun to play.
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
What offensive abilities?
What defensive abilities?
What unique abilities?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
How could/should they interact with other professions?
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Request For Comments:
The community is invited to make commentsthrough April. At that time, the thread will be closed to further comments. Feel free to comment on any or all of the above items. Please stay on topic.
What is the role of the Rifleman? Presently there seems to be two contradictory roles for the Rifleman. We have titles such as Sniper. This indicates precision shooting at long range. The Snipers motto is "One Shot, One Kill". To this end we have skills like ConcealShot.
The Rifleman also has the role of the machine-gunner. The AoE attacks and the "Gunner" title fall into this category.
As a practical matter. As a novice most Rifleman will act more like the Sniper. Or at least I did. The use of pet tanks of course will change this view. But at novice ConcealShot becomes your friend. Firing from concealment to hit your opponent.
As your speed increases and you advance you drift more towards the Gunner version. The ability to hit multiple targets at a fast rate is the hallmark of the machine-gunner.
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat? Depends on the level of the Rifleman as explained above. But in general the Rifleman is the basic grunt. He's the infantryman. His role in combat is to inflict damage at longer ranges than the other professions.
What basic combat elements should they possess? Most of their current combat elements are pretty fair. They can hit the mind pool but at a high costs in PvP. This isn't much of an issue in PvE as all MOBs have pretty balanced HAMs (thought I would like to see this changed).
What offensive abilities? The Rifleman should be able to hit at range and be most accurate while prone. As they currently are. They have abilities of the Sniper and the Gunner. In effect their weapons are assault rifles. Capable of firing single directed shots or going automatic to supress the opponents. They should also have the ability to suppress the enemy. This is the standard job of the machinegun in the military. To put out fire to make the enemy keep their heads down. This would mean changing their current posture up attacks to posture down or giving them some other attack that wold do this. Something unique to the Rifleman and not SuppressionFire from Marksman.
What defensive abilities? Please fix block or at least explain what it's suppose to do. It appears to be broken as when it works you get a message the you "counter-attacked" but you still take damage. Their Sniper and Concealment training would indicate that they are better at remaning unseen and harder to hit. Which works well with their Ranged defense.
A rifle can be used effectively in close combat. As a long weapon it can be used to block incoming strikes rather effectively and this method is still taught in the modern military. As such the Rifleman should have some decent melee defense. Though not nearly as good as any of the melee classes, it should be better than other ranged classes.
What unique abilities? The SniperShot is good for PvP. However it's very limited and has no use in PvE. Please keep it the way it is but also add an PvE aspect. My suggestion would be to make it a Mind attack with a status effect. Maybe Blind, from the blood running into the targets eyes from the head wound (head wounds almost always bleed heavily in real life).
SurpriseShot : Noone is sure what the point of this is. Presently it's a random attack single target. It doesn't require TakeCover as the wording in it indicates. Please define and repair this skill if appropriate.
StartleShot : This shot is redundent with FlushingShot. The two are nearly identical with FlushingShot having one advantage over it. There is no present use for StartleShot as FlushingShot is obtained earlier and does everything that Startle does making it pointless.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat? Depends on the type of combat and the target. In general the Rifleman is the basic ranged grunt. They can target the targets Mind if this is advantageous or spray fire with their AoE if needed. They should have good damage output and AP which can assist against tough targets.
How could/should they interact with other professions? See above. The Rifleman is one of the two main ranged combat professions. The other being the Carbineer (Assault troops).
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants? The Rifleman is much less effective while firing on the move. The bulk and long eye relief of the rifle make firing on the move or from the hip less effective than say a Pistol or Carbine. As such they are best when not moving. To this end they will need other professions to screen for them in combat. As such Pistoleers, Carbineers, and the melee professions will be needed to keep the enemies at a distance. This enables the Rifleman to fire with the most accuracy and cause the most damage. Commandos can also be used to keep the enemy away with their heavy damage and AoE effects. The Rifleman in turn eliminates those that threaten these closer range allies.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? Most of what was stated above also applies to the GCW. They are the machine-gunners and long range specialists. They can target the Mind pool but at a high cost of their own mind. They excel at open range combat where there is little cover for the close combat specialists can use to get close. This last point is of only limited value given the 64m range limitation. As the ranges are short enough that even in the open they can be closed fairly quickly.
Fix our titles. It's all well and good to be a sniper, soldier, gunner, novice or master sharpshooter. But why do we get hunter for mastering concealment when you get the same title in scout?
Waste93 wrote:
What unique abilities? The SniperShot is good for PvP. However it's very limited and has no use in PvE. Please keep it the way it is but also add an PvE aspect. My suggestion would be to make it a Mind attack with a status effect. Maybe Blind, from the blood running into the targets eyes from the head wound (head wounds almost always bleed heavily in real life).
Basically everything you said is true, we are either the rifleman marine fighting in the trenches with an assault rifle, or potentially the guy on a hill picking off stragglers. All in all I'd say we are more or less perfectly balanced, we just need to get our defenses worked on since block is bugged and I think another might be screwy.
However I have a differentidea for sniper 4 I figured I might as well mention. Rather then giving snipershot a secondary use leave it as it is but give us another skill in there. One that more or less works well with the "sniper" tag. A new type of aim or advanced aiming. You can either use it as a normal /aim only it gives slightly higher bonus to accuracy for your next special then the marksman equivalent. Or you can use "/aim body" and it will target the body to do normal health damage. When you think about it a sniper should be able to shoot the portion of the body that he wants to so why can't we? Choosing the HAM bar to attack with "/aim body" you can only use a normal, non-special, shot. Since /aim causes you to take up 2 combat turns this doesnt seem too unreasonable. After all the odds of you shooting that HAM randomly by that time are pretty good anyway, this just garuntees it with a slight cost of mind.
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?
The Rifleman should be the long-range specialist and lethal sniper - viable solo (or in groups of his fellows) as a stealthy one-shotter, or in larger groups as a counter-sniper or dispenser of suppressive fire.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
High accuracy at long ranges, and longer range than any other class.
What offensive abilities?
Specials that do high amounts of damage (and hence higher odds of one-shot kills, e.g. Surprise Shot) or are severely debilitating (as a first strike to soften up the mark for the rest of the group, e.g. Flurry Shot). The emphasis should be on the rifleman's role as a precision shooter, able to strike surgically and to maximum effect if given ample time to set up a good shot.
What defensive abilities?
Stealth should be high on the list - the rifleman should have defensive abilities that allow him to get in the first shot (and hopefully the last). Taking cover to avoid damage (e.g. high mods for Block and Ranged Defense) also makes a lot of sense.
What unique abilities?
The focus should be on offensive abilities - perhaps unique specials that reflect the sniper/soldier aspect? Sniper Shot is pretty nice. Special benefits for "aim" (e.g. increased damage) would also go well with the sniper theme. Modifying the weapon ranges a bit would be nice too - a rifle's max range should be greater than a pistol's max range, thus giving the rifleman an edge in getting that first shot in. (This is currently reflected with range penalties - the rifle has a much better chance of hitting at 64m than a pistol does, but it'd be nice if the rifle also extended out to a "long range", such that it'd be possible to shoot at a target 120m away, at penalties similar to what a pistoleer would have shooting at a 60m distant target.)
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Allowing the group to strike first and by surprise. Softening up the enemy before the closer-range fighters move in.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Aside from combatants in the group(covered in other questions), the rifleman obviously is dependent on weaponsmiths to provide and maintainrifles, and potentially armorsmiths to provide armor.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
The rifleman's main vulnerability should be the risk of being charged or flanked - he's deadly at range, but get too close or come at him from unexpected angles, and he's a sitting duck. The rifleman should depend on other classes to move forward andengage and hold back any targets not killed by the initial assault.
If the rifleman actually one-shot kills a signficant portion of the time it doesn't leave much for the other classes to do, so perhaps the emphasis should be on powerful long-lasting state changes that will give other classes a large edge in battle.
Further, the rifleman's attacks should "stack" well with those of other classes. Under the current system, the most common rifleman specials attack the mind, which few other classes can injure reliably; hence, rifleman in groups either forgo their most powerful specials or duplicate work. As a precision shooter, it makes sense for the rifleman to be able to target any HAM pool he sees fit, and thus effectively combine his efforts with any other class (note that for the solo rifleman this makes no difference, since one pool is the same as another for the most part).
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Without a doubt the rifleman should be the core of any assault force on open terrain - taking up positions within sniping distance of an enemy base, for example, requiring the defenders to either hole up inside, charge the rifleman's position, or fight back with their own snipers. Or massing in large numbers in a defensive position to whittle down attackers as they charge the base (and fall back when the attackers get too close, leaving the remainder of the fight to close-up combat classes).
Good idea. Could be a replacement for SurpriseShot even. Which is at Sniping III.
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
However I have a differentidea for sniper 4 I figured I might as well mention. Rather then giving snipershot a secondary use leave it as it is but give us another skill in there. One that more or less works well with the "sniper" tag. A new type of aim or advanced aiming. You can either use it as a normal /aim only it gives slightly higher bonus to accuracy for your next special then the marksman equivalent. Or you can use "/aim body" and it will target the body to do normal health damage. When you think about it a sniper should be able to shoot the portion of the body that he wants to so why can't we? Choosing the HAM bar to attack with "/aim body" you can only use a normal, non-special, shot. Since /aim causes you to take up 2 combat turns this doesnt seem too unreasonable. After all the odds of you shooting that HAM randomly by that time are pretty good anyway, this just garuntees it with a slight cost of mind.
heh to be honest i think rifleman shuld be able to operate outside the 64m combat range..and also guns should be able to be modified for different ranges. ala. a winchester rifle is a good shorter range rifle. yet the barret 50 cal is set for long range
i also think the t21 should no longer be energy class. maybe a new class called concussion. since in books it was defined as a concussion type rifle
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?
The Rifleman is the stealthy long-ranged shooter. The one-shot killer under the right circumstances.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Ranged combat with the best abilities at longest ranges. As snipers, their shots should be deadly accurate and they should be able to choose their attack bar (HAM) with called shots. Called shots might also allow them to shoot unarmored areas such as the hands and feet of a Trandoshan.
What offensive abilities?
Long-range shooting with low speed, high accuracy, and moderate damage compared to other ranged attackers. They should have the most versatility in called shots for achieving effective damage.
What defensive abilities?
Few or none. They should survive by range and concealment, laying prone in the weeds and hoping they are overlooked. They should be the most vulnerable ranged profession but possibly also the most deadly.
What unique abilities?
Highly-accurate called shots. They should be able to shoot the unarmored parts of a person, or perhaps even have an armor-piercing effectiveness. They should be able to call head, torso, or limb shots. They may have a bleed shot as well, but precision should be their hallmark.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Riflemen should be able to finish off almost any opponent that has been softened up. By targeting unarmored HAM bar that is almost gone, the Rifleman gets to target each person's weakness.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Riflemen should be fairly weak in one-on-one fights. A melee combatant who gets close should be able to defeat the Rifleman quickly. A pistoleer should be able to dodge many shots. A Carbineer might be vulnerable as their barrage of fire doesn't do much to a prone Rifleman. the Rifleman's best chances against a single opponent are with surprise against someone who is unarmored. One or two shots to the unarmored area should incapacitate the person.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Riflemen are finishers. They rely on everyone else to protect them from melee attackers, and to soften up the enemies until the Rifleman's aimed shot picks off the weakest pool. Others rely on the Rifleman to focus attacks on the weakest pools, helping to end each enemy's fight faster.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Sniping, coup-de-grace, finishing shots. They should be the best suited to picking off an unarmored called shot at range.
Added Question: What is their weakness or shortcoming in combat?
Riflemen are very vulnerable to melee. They should be almost useless when standing or running, and thus easily defeated by a hand-to-hand fighter who gets close enough. Also, they are highly vulnerable to other riflemen, as they are generally an offensive class and not a defensive one.
phosho delkaWhat defines the Rifleman role in combat?
It should be a long range profession, a rifleman in melee should be a dead rifleman.What basic combat elements should they possess?
Large damage and high accuracy at the longest ranges in the game.What offensive abilities?
High armour piercing to reflect that rifleman maintain a high level of damage even against the hardest of opponents. Sniper shot is a great ability, just as conceal shot is only useful in PvE I don't have any problem with Sniper shot being a PvP only skill.What defensive abilities?
Hard to kill if engaged at long range, personally I think the high amount of ranged defence rifleman gets is perfect for this. Should be the weakest profession when engaged in melee combat.What unique abilities?
Heavy armour piercing, sniper shot and conceal shot are all good unique abilities that rifle already has, these should not be removed.Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Able to damage the hardest of targets.What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
A Rifleman should not be operating at under 20m at all, they should depend on other combatants to help keep their targets at long range. A Rifleman without a secondary profession should not be in the front lines of combat at any time.What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
To drop targets quickly while being protected by other professions.What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?
High DPS, highest of all non elite classes.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
I feel we currently have a good balance here between sniping and wide area machine gunning.
What offensive abilities?
Again I like our current abilities, mind shot targeting pools that are harder to heal.
What defensive abilities?
Fewer than we have now. We should have at least decent ranged defense but I feel either we have too much melee defense, or theres a bug in the code that just makes us harder to hit. I shouldn't be able to take out 3 pikets attacking from 2m before they knock out my unarmored 400 health and action.
What unique abilities?
Sniper shot is great, love it to death. High damage long range AOE's are great too, tho I think the accuracy is a bit backwards on it, should be more accurate at close range and less at far, seems to be opposite of that now (I'm more likely to hit something randomly spraying bullets 5m in front of me than at 64m)
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Again, high DPS. Adding a rifleman to a group does and should make battles with high end creatures much quicker. But due to lower defenses, would be required to be protected constantly by the rest of the group. A rifleman could maybe out damage as many as 3 or 4 other people, but it should take 7-8 people to keep whatever high end critter sufficiently occupied to keep the rifleman from getting stomped.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
They are and should be (perhaps more) dependant on doctors, entertainers, smugglers, and chefs to keep them in the game. Sure you can do a lot more damage, but you're gonna pay for it, either you'll have no HAM bar left, or you'll be paying your favorite chef/smuggler/musician/doc to keep that damage coming, otherwise 7 shots or so and you're spent. To this end I feel HAM costs should be raised again slightly, to further increase our need on these other professions, and to limit our effectiveness without them.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Basically they should be the babies of the group. Everyone else should be watching out for the rifleman since once targeted, they will be quickly incapped/killed. The way I see it should work is carbineers open up with a few ranged KD's while the melee classes and pistoleers run in to close range and engage the enemy, carbineers and rifleman try to stay back while the carbineers inflict thier ranged status mods and rifleman either machine gun or snipe as the situation calls for.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
I like it pretty much like it is, part time sniper, part time machine gunner. Gives us flexibility that most other single classes don't seem to have.
On a closing note, I'd like to say that the difference between a 4444 rifleman and master rifleman is staggering. Rifle is one of the few classes that is entirely NOT worth dabbling in, only worth mastering. I hope instead of giving us a few whaps with the nerf bat that you can instead find a way to make other classes as appealing at the master level.