CUEmu - Thread Posts

Thunderheart

Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:56 pm

Crafting experimentation has been enhanced so that the amount of change that each experimentation point will affect an item attribute will now be calculated by the maximum value for the item. Therefore, regardless of the quality of resources used, each experimentation point will affect the attribute by the same amount. Now, the maximum value upon which a resource attribute is allowed to be experimented is affected by the quality of resources used. This will have a much more noticeable effect on the crafting experimentation process, making it more interesting, challenging and easier to understand. This will noticeably reduce the effectiveness of experimenting with low quality resources by all players. However, this will give master crafters more of an advantage over less skilled crafters, as they have more experimentation points to use, and will be more likely to produce an item with maximum attributes.fficeffice" />

How did resource quality effect your results?

Kurt "Thunderheart" Stangl
Community Relations Manager

Utess

Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:34 pm

#2

Crafting on the whole seems to be much improved. Experimentation now gives better and more realistic feedback. However, some people do feel that currently the experimentation system is too reliant on the quality of materials used and that player skill has no impact at all beyond the number of points you have access too. In other words, the quality of the materials should be the most important factor, but at higher skill levels you should be able to do "more" with poorer quality materials than you could at lower skill levels.

On the whole though, I like the new system you do get hurt more with poorer quality stuff, but your successes with good materials are greater than they were pre-patch

________________________________

'Tess
- Utess Pero: Master Entertainer, Master Dancer, Master Musician, ID
- Andria Pasretti: Master Artisan, Master Merchant, Teras Kasi Master
- Tatiyana Karkuf: Master Medic, Master Combat Medic, Master Doctor

neinnunb

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:53 pm

#3

Utess wrote:

On the whole though, I like the new system you do get hurt more with poorer quality stuff, but your successes with good materials are greater than they were pre-patch

Are you saying that based on experiments that you made? If so what did you make? What were the qualities of materials?

Logix, the WS corresponded made a few tests:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=weaponsmith&message.id=35955

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Acktu - Sunrunner   .  ` __::__ '  .   _/ \ be with you      /
Beta 3, JTL,          -:.`'..`'.:-         ------------------
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Utess

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:15 pm

#4

As for what I made, I tested this on Swoops. I forget all the stats off hand right now. But using:

Wagic steel: 893 OQ, 984 SR.

Enapao Link Steel Aluminum 989 OQ, 718 SR.

- Pre patch the absolute best I could make was a 91% experimented swoop.

- Post patch I averaged 98% experimentation and got a 100% experimented swoop with an amazing succes when placing my last 3 experimentation points.

Also, Using a copper with: 609 OQ, 519 SR with the exact same Wagic steel, I was averaging 94% experimentation on swoops.

I forget the resource quality numbers, but when I used a low quality steel with the Link Steel aluminum, I got really low experimentation results.

________________________________

'Tess
- Utess Pero: Master Entertainer, Master Dancer, Master Musician, ID
- Andria Pasretti: Master Artisan, Master Merchant, Teras Kasi Master
- Tatiyana Karkuf: Master Medic, Master Combat Medic, Master Doctor

Utess

Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:00 am

#5

Being a Master artisan exclusively and crafting several things during the night, I've noticed a few things.

- I can craft all artisan items with extremely high experimentation percentages so long as the majority of the resources used have 800 or higher stats. I've been crafting 98% experimented vehicles with ease all night with a few 100% vehicles, 100% experimented crafting tools with 790 to 840 conductivity copper with a single amazing success and 99% with just good/great successes, and similar results on all my other Artisan goods.

- Tool effectiveness seems to be almost meaningless now. I havn't tested with unexperimented tools, but show no difference at all between moderate to 100% experimented tools.

- I seem to get an amazing success once out of every 4 crafts, mostly good or great successes, and only the rarest of rare critical fail.

- Just about anyone I've talked to who has an elite profession that involves crafting is reporting it almost impossible to achieve the same experimentation rates they were before(in many cases much much worse than before) while I, on just the artisan level, am doing far far better than I ever was before.

Based on all that, it seems to show two things, to me at least

- Your chance of getting high experimentation successes(good to amazing) seems to increase as you go from novice to master in a crafting profession. This makes sense and seems to work fine.

- There is a huge difference between what I am seeing when crafting as a Master Artisan compared to what all the elite crafting professions are seeing. I'm doing very well while they are struggling a lot more.

This makes me think that either your chances of crafting something good decrease dramatically as the complexity of the item increases and/or the elite professions being restricted to more specific resources is making it very hard for them to find materials that are anything but sub-par overall to make their goods.

But, seeing as how I have been getting high experimentation even with average materials, it seems like either item complexity is influencing the system too sharply, or something is broken with the formula when used on the elite professions.

The differences between what I'm seeing and what master elite crafters are seeing just seems to be too extreme.

________________________________

'Tess
- Utess Pero: Master Entertainer, Master Dancer, Master Musician, ID
- Andria Pasretti: Master Artisan, Master Merchant, Teras Kasi Master
- Tatiyana Karkuf: Master Medic, Master Combat Medic, Master Doctor

Niven_MK1

Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:23 am

#6

For parties interested in reading up on the exact details of the new system, what was crafted, and what came out worse under the new system, here's the thread over in the weaponsmithing board.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=weaponsmith&message.id=35955

Niven Darksun
Master Weaponsmith
Fledgling Commando

You know you're old when you've outlived your PA...

Thrain

Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:16 am

#7

Createcrafting tool as Master Artisan. That item is easy to see how material quality enhance crafting.

Test done with 981 CON copper, on 100% Tool and 85% Station.

Before Patch 7: Out of critical failure I got EACH TIME a 98% Crafting Tool.

Now with Patch 7: Out of critical failure, I got on 10 tries: 7 97% Crafting Tool and 3 100% Crafting Tool. Those with 100% are those I got at least one Amazing Success (I got only several Great success on those at 97%). That mean that MAX experimentation is now highter when youuse best resource than it was with patch 6

With lower quality material, I got each timebetter result with Patch6 than with Patch 7. That seems ok to me.

To conclude that first day of testing, with top material, I got better item with patch 7 than with patch 6 but only when I got amazing success. In all other situations I always got worse result.

Thrain Dre'tha, Test Center, Master CH/Ranger 4243, Unity
Thrainy Dre'tha, Test Center, Master artisan/Master Merchant/DE 0112/Chef 0103, Unity

SWG-Runesabre

Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:51 am

#8

Thank you for testing, Utess.

Taewyn

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:52 am

#9

Baicily this change is forcing us to use *more* points to achieve the same results as we were pre-patch.....

Since the quality effects only the *max* its actually not to great at all to use good quality resources on anything but one line experimented items (like speeders).....

IE....Now, with good resources, my experiment bar in armor effectivness can reach 85% or so (its current max with my resources) with only 8-9 points.....

Under the new system, its *cap* would be 95% (higher yes)...But to reach even 90% I am going to have to spend all 10 of my points....It may not seem like much to any non-crafter, however you just took out a whole level of complexity to crafting....The complexity of the *OLD* crafting system is *good*...It is keeping me very entertained, trying to figure out what combination of points makes the best quality stuff for myself and my customers......This change will force everyone to pick the most important stat and run with it (Because you will only get to fill up one)....

I have to ask rune, is this change needed for combat balance? (Are weapons/armor *too* good right now to fit into your combat balance?)...If it is please explain some more of your plan, because right now this change just stinks for alot of people who really enjoy the crafting system.

If this change is not absolutly needed for the combat balance, then please scrap it....Because I can not see anyone enjoying baisicly getting a master profession just so they can run a factory to make the same *exact* thing as every other smith out there....

Taewyn Alsan Lt Colonel in service of the Empire

Taewyn and Oqua's "As you like it" Armor and Clothing store. On Naboo, right outside of Kaadara Location: +5729 +6376.

vonbloodworth

Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:07 pm

#10

have any of you taken into account that there are more thing in game NOW that directly affect crafting and exparmention?

like that drink (is it brandy?) that incresses your chance on the next exparmention? or the city spelizations?

seems to me that it makes thies items more effictive...

all of your tests should now be done with this things and then see your results...

also...i belive this is a BIG part to the upcomming changes to crafting in ginerial...the new weapions...armor and how it works...

the is probly one way to end comp as being the end all be all...and i like like that...

Trucegore vonbloodworth,wonderhome
Mayor/guild master

Pikeman, Polition, Merchant,Master Artisan
***** Im easy to talk to once people get to know me, but holding my personal audiences on a throne of bloody skulls tends to put them off at first. *****

sciguyCO

Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:08 pm

#11

One thing that I think would be needed for a change this drastic is to have a dev (an actual coder, as good as TH and RuneSaber are I'd like to hear from the programmers in the trenches) post a description about exactly how this is supposed to work. I'm all for discovery in a game, but with the variety of resources, quality, and the ever-present random factor I think to really evaluate the impact we need details:

How is the experimentation gain calculated? Different experimentation results (great success, moderate failure, amazing success) obviously give different improvements, but by how much?

Heck, how is the max percentage calculated? Is there any scaling done for resources required in a schematic that appear to have a hard-cap on stat values (like Plumbum Iron and conductivity)? So if the max value a stat can have is 500, would using a spawned resource with 400 in that stat act like an 800?

How many decimal places are the experimental percentages tracked to? I had a couple of tests where a great success with a single point gave me +4%, a great success immediately after that gave 5%, and after that it went back to 4%. Did I hit a rounding point?

How does the system deal with required resource types that don't have a contributing stat? Does it matter whether or not the resource type has a sub-category containing the stat? Minerals generally don't have PE, however solid petrochem does, would using solid petro as a mineral resource in an item depending on PE show an improvement?

Does experimentation skill improve the percentage gain on a success?Would a Masterget a bigger percent increase than a Novice making the same item with the same resources?

Are there any benefits to this new system that the current system doesn't provide (other than rewarding characters with the time and effort to find and hoard those "perfect" resources)?

A rough calculation on my testing results seems to show that the percent increase of a great success is about 8% of the max reachable percentage. This is with a non-Master artisan (but having Eng IV and Dom Arts IV, plus a bonus for being human). Any chance this ratio could be tweaked upward? Since the starting percentage with a great success assembly is around 20% of max if the experimenation gain was 10%, you could max out a category with8 experimentation points, allowing 2 (or 4 if you have +experiment tapes) points to be used to improve a secondary category. Or maybe change the number depending on how many experimentation categories there are, sincea single-category item seems to actually get a benefit with the new system.

Kriles Ch'artoff , Chilastra server
Master Chef (retired)
Currently doing....stuff

Seshemw

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:13 pm

#12

It appears to be a good first-round change, but the emphasis in observed flaws seems to be 'too little improvement per experimentation point'. I think the devs went with the idea that it would take nearly ten points to cap one line of experimentation in an item, so they scaled it that way.
What i'd like to see, and I think wouldn't be irresponsible, would be a larger increase per 'great' success (well, any success), to make it possible to get a 100% on one line of a multiline item and still have significant points left over to be dropped in other lines.

Example:
Final medicines have three lines, charges, med use, and effectiveness.
If I max med use under current system, with excellent materials, I'll get an extremely good effectiveness. But my points left to drop into med use and charges are more limited than they were under the old system (for an overal worse med, at least IMO). Under the new system, if I use poor materials, I'll certainly cap out quicker and have some points for the other extremely short tracks, but I think masters are feeling the sting because the system seems to reward mediocre material multiline items overal output, at the expense of high quality material multiline items overal output.

--
Nivis Nix [TLC] - Rori
Master Sergeant - Imperial ground forces, detached

Seshemw

Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:26 pm

#13

Ah, ignore the above. Making the width of an experimentation box variable on the resource quality is a killer. After looking at the system as is, I'm a bit appalled if the one try told me the right things. If the intention was to prevent having items that excel in more than one track (on multiple track items), mission accomplished (and the market will be in an amazing uproar of negativity for everything that has more than one track involved in the making of it, unless the other tracks are in extremely low demand). If the intent was to force crafters to choose 'optimized for one thing only at the expense of the others' or 'generalized improvement, but lacking in all categories compared to one optimized for one thing only', mission accomplished. Again, that means an overal decline in the quality of produced goods, which is at extreme variance with the stated mission goal for the change. At least in how I'm reading that goal.

--
Nivis Nix [TLC] - Rori
Master Sergeant - Imperial ground forces, detached

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