Dancer Archive
Thread: I Want Formal2 Again
Anyone else feel this way? Has this every been brought up to the devs?Shi'ann
Hot Pink Twi'lek of Mystery
DanceRulez wrote:
Anyone else feel this way? Has this every been brought up to the devs?
Well, kinda... this is Tiaga's thing, he'd have a lot more to say about it... he did suggest something like this in the Entertainer Issues, but then people had concerns so he changed it to this:
Currently the only class that really benefits from master entertainer is musicians. And they are upset about it taking away from their class and forcing them to dance and do image design just to be a true master musicians. Dancers on the other hand get two repeats of existing dances, with only the unflourished animation different. One of these is a dance that most people don't even like to begin with, and the other is a dance where the unflourished animation is not seen properly by anyone but the dancer, so is visually identical. Image design doesn't get anything at all.
It is apparent that just throwing in part of what each of the professions does is not a good solution. The musicians are already loudly complaining about this, and the image designers are against anything they can do being taken away. The dancers could care less since they already have something there they don't want, so aren't losing anything by not taking it, and aren't risking losing something.
I am interested in Dancers' opinions on this... I've seen Tiaga bring it up a few times in the Corre Forums and I never really know what to say... so I haven't yet. 
Alright, this "quick post" (as originally intended)rapidly turned into the Deila Karlossi Philosophy of the Role of theMaster Entertainer in SWG. Yes, it's absolutely huge... but it's a fairly complete assessment of my currentviews for Master Entertainer. Those with the patience to read it might find some interest of note. Just make some coffee, sit back and read the novel.
Panthu wrote:
Well, kinda... this is Tiaga's thing, he'd have a lot more to say about it... he did suggest something like this in the Entertainer Issues, but then people had concerns so he changed it to this:
Currently the only class that really benefits from master entertainer is musicians. And they are upset about it taking away from their class and forcing them to dance and do image design just to be a true master musicians. Dancers on the other hand get two repeats of existing dances, with only the unflourished animation different. One of these is a dance that most people don't even like to begin with, and the other is a dance where the unflourished animation is not seen properly by anyone but the dancer, so is visually identical. Image design doesn't get anything at all.
It is apparent that just throwing in part of what each of the professions does is not a good solution. The musicians are already loudly complaining about this, and the image designers are against anything they can do being taken away. The dancers could care less since they already have something there they don't want, so aren't losing anything by not taking it, and aren't risking losing something.
I am interested in Dancers' opinions on this... I've seen Tiaga bring it up a few times in the Corre Forums and I never really know what to say... so I haven't yet.
I think the underlying idea is that Entertainer is the generalist, while Dancer, Musician and Image Designer are the specialists. It's very much akin to Marksman, with Pistoleer, Carbines and Rifles being further specializations beyond the general, roundedpractitioner. As it is with generalists, the idea is that they are jacks-of-all-trades in entertainment, and masters of none. A Master Entertainer has become quite evenlyproficient in all of the forms of entertainment, and so ranks a Master title for efficient well-rounding.And I personally think that is a good role... to be general all-around entertainers (as the profession implies), but not have the same capabilities as a specialist within their field.
Now, the skills that comewith Master Entertainer are there for a reason. They're enticements. They're a reason to be interested in mastering Entertainer rather than the entire basicentertainer profession being simply a partial run- ajumping-off point for a particular elite profession. Master Entertainer needs to have it's own unique attractions, otherwise the profession wouldexclusively be a broken jumble of individual skill lines to an elite. Some other attractive professions have basic Masteries as prerequisites, yet there are no elite or hybrid professionsthatrequire Master Entertainer. ME's need their draw to encourage skilled generalists in entertainment.
Right now the major attractions to Master Entertainer are theMandoviol and Ceremonial, but I think that if Formal 2 was fixed it would be another strong attraction as well.
Does this "take away" from the specialized, elite professions? I don't think so... not in the real sense. Lack of two of the dances granted at ME, even if they were fixed and two of the coolest dances available, does not prevent me from being a strong dance performer, easily able to make a living and produce good shows. And I've never seen a goodMaster Musician completelyunable to entertain an audience for lack of a Mandoviol or not playing Ceremonial. Nor have the lack of these Master Entertainer perks affected my ability to buff, heal wounds and bf, or otherwise perform my game mechanics role. There is nothing in Master Entertainer that removes my ability to perform at the top of my profession as a Master Dancer, so I could never say that it "takes away" anything from me.
Far from taking anything away from my profession, should I choose to master Entertainer as well (which I am now in the process of doing), rather than patching up holes in my profession (as would be the case if it "took away" from the elites), I will instead be able to enhance my abilities to perform even better shows. Mastering Entertainer gives me a low-cost (skill point wise) opportunity to add some attractive musical capabilities to my dancing repertoire, and therefore become an even stronger performer overall. Right now, Master Entertainer is, I think, most attractive to Dancers over other professions for those reasons.
Unfortunately, the reverse situation of Musicians adding someperformance-enhancing dance capability is not really present. One broken dance, and one unpopular dance are just not very attractive options... and many musicians just aren't interested in dance at all (perhaps this touches into the lack of more masculine dance animations - a can of worms I will not directly open here).
And thereare no enticements for ID's to be able to further extend their professional capabilities in ME, but this is possibly the right thing to do. Absolutely nothing against the ID profession, but the concept of Image Design as a part of entertainment does seem to be a bit of a "well, they fit in here better than anywhere else" situation. Itdoes leave conceptual problems in how to add appeal to ME for ID's -without directly taking away from their profession. This is most likely why ME does not have any image design perks associated with it. ID is not as subjective as entertainment - either you have access to making a change on a character, or you do not. Not having access at all takes away from a profession. In both dance and music, not having one or two dances, instruments or songs does not block one's ability to perform their game mechanic or their social roles to the fullest, whereas a Master ID would be prevented from having full professional capabilities.
However, in light of the new ID mini-publish, perhaps there is now a way to add an ID perk to ME without taking away from the profession... albeit a fairly small perk. Perhaps ME could have a skill that halved the wait time on ID work, which could result in a bonus of 1/4 of thewait times if a ME/ID were working in an ID tent. This would not remove capabilities from ID's who were not also ME, yet would be a nice enhancement to their ability to practice their craft should they choose to do so, while alsogaining the other more purely show-based skills in music and dance. Thinking along these lines also implies an opportunity for ME to halve times for dance and music buffing as well - but this would require another review of our buffing timing systems to implement(which I think is necessary as well... our buffing systems nowhave somebandages applied, but could still use a real overhaul in the long run). Just some ideas to consider...
As it stands conceptually, ME I think fits more into the "social" role of the entertainer professions than the more game-mechanic end of things... and I for one think this is right and good. If the "social professions" become too reliant on game mechanics, we lose our social and roleplayingatmosphere, and the whole original purpose to inclusion of our "exciting new types of professions as socializers" is lost - we would slide back into being just another combat support class, and the bards are reborn. We need inclusion and integration into the umbrella-game, but not overreliance on the mechanics. It's what makes this experiment in MMORPG'sunique.
In conclusion, I think that ME serves a good role as an extension of performance capabilites for the elite performing professions, and as a good avenue for those wishing to dabble in several entertainment forms without the full skill point commitment of an elite for those who are interested. I would like to see a bit more rounding of the attractions to ME... as I've stated, right now the main attractions are to dancers (for the added musical capabilities)and tofemale musicians (who don't mind the more feminine dance animations). And I do not see these types of perks as taking anything away from the elite professions, but rather give Master Entertainera reason to be reached for, and thus hold a place of value in the game.
I was mostly speaking in the general terms. I'd love formal2 too... If it wasn't bugged. As I like to do performances, how it looks to other people is what's important. And so formal or formal2 look the same, as does lyrical or lyrical2. As I recall even footloose2 is bugged, not that many care.
I think this is the first time I've seen this thread come up on the dancer forum. Usually this is a musician topic.
But rest assured, one of the things I'm pushing right now is to get the base dances fixed. I've done some testing to identify what the cause of the problem is.
My feeling is there are things that Master Entertainer could be that enhanced all 3 elite professions without "taking away" from any of them. Things like enhanced registration (Put your name on the map.. Course first registration needs to be fixed) as an example. But, that's just my opinion, and that's no more important on the matter than anybody else's opinion.
I think it's the normal call for mastering base professions. Whenever you master the base, you get benefits to the elite profession. See marksman or brawler for example. Be a master marksman and you are a better rifleman as well enhancing the skills you get as a rifleman.
Safe of Image designers, who are really underrated concerning the master entertainer, I think it works out ok.
It's funny this was brought up today. Just two days ago I decided to drop my spice making habit in favor of mastering Entertainer. I had a number of reasons for doing so, but one was so that I could get formal2. I think formal can be a really nice dance, but I never do it because the base looks so awful. I realize people have said that to the viewer formal2 still looks bad. I've not witnessed it, but that's probably because nobody does it because it looks bad. But, I guess, being the selfish person I am, I only care if it looks good to me. LOL But, I would imagine I'm not going to be using it that much in a performance type of situation if it truly looks that bad to the viewer. I still want my formal2, though. And, I think in conjunction with that, the base dance needs to be fixed for the viewer.
So, I'd have to respectfully disagree with Tiaga on this one. Some dancers *do* care about this, I'm one of them. But, I suppose it's not going to really matter all that much until it looks good to the viewer.
I had a crazy idea.
What if Master Entertainer gave you access to a higher feature of Dancer, Musician, and Image Design? Say that when you become a Master Entertainer, you gain the following:
- Dance: Lyrical
- Music: (whatever is in Music 3, say)
- ID: A couple of features from the third line of ID.
This is allowed regardless of your skills in the others. So, say you are a Master Entertainer with no Novice skills in the elite professions. You still can dance Lyrical and play the cool instrument available to more advanced folks. If you are a Master Musician and Master Entertainer, you can dance Lyrical despite not having Novice Dance.
It's enticing, but it won't take away from the other professions who don't want to master Entertainer.
The way I see the master base professions, though... Expecting hybrid professions and professions for which master is a prerequisite (Neither of which happens in entertainer classes) the current base professions enhance the elites more than they enhance their own profession. A master brawler will never be as good as novice of any of it's elites, but a master TKA + Master Brawler will be stronger than master TKA alone. So in my mind the ideal ability/skill to put in master entertainer is something that stands on it's own, not directly related to any of the elites, and something that enhances the elites at any level.
So far the only thing I've thought of that fits in with my idea of the ideal ability for master entertainer is an enhanced global registration ability. Basically, a custom registration in a new category on the world map. Something like a "Services" list similar to the "Vendors" list, with sub-lists for "Dancer" "Musician" "Medical" and "Image Design" (With of course medic or doctor getting something similar) and the ability to use this registration in any structure they can perform in.
I think that would be great, but I don't have community support on that. There are people who have master entertainer that don't want to give up any of what they already have because they like that it distinguishes them from other musicians/dancers, and people that think it should be something more directly related to the professins.
Message Edited by Tiaga on 05-20-2004 06:05 PM
Tiaga posted a new thread for Master Ents here.
I am a Master Ent on both Starsider and TC right this sec, so I added my comments as a player. I mentioned both combat and crafting options on top of chat, income, and group functions... so feel free to nicely flame me.