Dancer Archive
Thread: Why are people fighting amongst themselves...
Eljer wrote:
when the entertainer class has so many issues. Why are we all bitching about tipping and afk macroing instead of complaining about the limitations of the class? Why don't we ask that the dev's fix us instead of fighting with other entertainers?...People see us as a useless class that doesn't need money. We are supposed to do this because we absolutely love giving ourselves away for free. Do you want to be seen as this? Why aren't we a class that are seen as providing a necessary service to the game? WHy?
Er, could it be because everybody bitches about people not tipping, and because we have so many AFKers? Those are the two main things causing bad blood with other professions. Fix those, and you've fixed the majority of the problems you've described.
You know, unless that was a rhetorical question.
It could also be because we haven't had any response to our correspondent issues so we have nothing constructive to talk about. There's no point in rehashing stuff that's lower priority when we're still waiting for a response on higher priority issues.
Unfortunately, the devs have latched on to one of the issues that was included in the entertainer report /denyservice and the entertainer correspondents pet peeve money issues. They've ignored everything except for the requests for new flourishes.
I dunno. All of the posts I've read that are critical of ents are usually about tipping and AFKers. It's not just my opinion, but the majority of players. I don't see why that would mean you should leave the class, though(unless you're a tip-whore AFKer, but I doubt it).
Eljer wrote:
Afk macro's and tipping have absolutely nothing to do with it. And if the majority of dancers think those are the 'top' priorities in the class I should probably get out of it now.
Eljer wrote:
I guess I'm wrong, you'd rather fight with each other than add something constructive to the game. The reason there is bad blood is because we cannot offer players anything. Because of us they have to come back to town to get what they need. Because of us they can die from mind damage and wounds that no one else can heal. Because of us they think there are a bunch of people on here who's only goal is to get tips for non dangerous activities. The reason there is bad blood is because no one thinks we are useful. Afk macro's and tipping have absolutely nothing to do with it. And if the majority of dancers think those are the 'top' priorities in the class I should probably get out of it now.
Whoa Whoa Whoa there buddy.
"Because of us they have to come back to town to get what they need." - This is not because of the dancers, this is game design, developers have seen the cities in other games become waste lands they wished to add something to the game that would create the need for characters to visit towns and therefore interact with each other. Entertainers filled that role we are the effect not the cause.
"Because of us they can die from mind damange and wounds that no one else can heal. " This is not the dancers fault!!! To begin with entertainers can't heal mind damage period no matter where they are. While I agree that the inability within the game to not be able to heal mind damage is a bad thing don't blame it on the dancers. Mind wounds can be healed in camps by entertainers just like health and action wounds can be healed in camps by doctors the only thing that can not be healed in the field is battle fatigue.
As for tip whining and afking yes to an extent that is our fault the entertainment community is killing itself slowly because of those issues. However I do believe that a lot of that was brought about due to the ingratitude and greedyness of the non service classes at release. Viscous cycle, fighter wants stuff for free, dancer needs tips, dancer performs service for fighter asks for tips, fighter says no way (along with alot of mindless sexually insulting blather) dancer gets mad not only at the lack of tips but at the general abuse, that anger builds until it is at the point we see now, tip me or I quit, fighter says ok I'll get novice ent I don't need you, fighter afk macro's, other fighter sees fighter afk macroing gets upset at the ease of the skill that one can afk to master in, refuses to tip other dancers and thus the cycle continues.
I didn't say it was bad game design I said it was game design.
Returning to town to socialize and interact with fellow players is good game design. Giving the Socializer personality a contributing and needed role in day to day gaming in the form of the entertainment profession, Great game design.
Mindwounds, mindamage ect.. the only faulty logic here is the inability within the game itself to heal mind damage, mindwounds are not an issue if you want wounds healed in the field take an entertainer into the field with you. For mind damage while I agree that the entertainers are the mind healers I'm hesitant to give a stim pack crafting item to a dancer, we know nothing of medicine we dance. Let the doctors creat a mind stim or make it a form of spice or give us mind healing food (chefs need something). Who should use the stims though is a nother question.entertainers seem the best option but many seek the entertainment field as a relief from ever needing to fight or be in battle. Giving entertainers a role that forces them out of the cantinas would be a decision that would need to be thought out long and hard.
As for tips ect. the designers counted on the players to work this one out themselves. There's no reason even with all the viteral against entertainers that an entertainer can not live on tips alone within the current system. The entertainers need to fix themselves before they cry to the devs for more toys.
With respect Ndainye, your opinion would have more weight if you were a dancer currently, rather than a retired dancer. You no longer need to make dancing XP points or dancing credits. Those of us who do need those things tend tohave a different opinion. My question is, why did you retire? Was it perhaps because you could see no future in dancing after you made Master becausethe professiondoesn't pay and the levels have no benefits?
It seems that you are dead set against any fix by the developers. You want theentertainers aloneto fix a problem that is beyond their control. It is a problem 100%caused by non-entertainers refusing to enter into the spirit of the game - i.e. by refusing totip the entertainers. It is simplynot the case that those who give good service get good tips - those who give good service merelygetrare and measlytips rather than no tips at all.
I'm afraid that despite youropinionthis is indeedan issue that can only be solved by the developers giving us some way todeny service to those ingrateswho abuse the system. Maybe you never cared if a person with HUGE damage levelsbenefited fromyour healing skill and left without even a thank-you. I do care, and I think most people whose primary profession isentertainer would agree with me.
Beery wrote:
With respect Ndainye, your opinion would have more weight if you were a dancer currently, rather than a retired dancer. You no longer need to make dancing XP points or dancing credits. Those of us who do need those things tend tohave a different opinion. My question is, why did you retire? Was it perhaps because you could see no future in dancing after you made Master becausethe professiondoesn't pay and the levels have no benefits?
It seems that you are dead set against any fix by the developers. You want theentertainers aloneto fix a problem that is beyond their control. It is a problem 100%caused by non-entertainers refusing to enter into the spirit of the game - i.e. by refusing totip the entertainers. It is simplynot the case that those who give good service get good tips - those who give good service merelygetrare and measlytips rather than no tips at all.
I'm afraid that despite youropinionthis is indeedan issue that can only be solved by the developers giving us some way todeny service to those ingrateswho abuse the system. Maybe you never cared if a person with HUGE damage levelsbenefited fromyour healing skill and left without even a thank-you. I do care, and I think most people whose primary profession isentertainer would agree with me.
I am retired for several reasons the main one being that I've always enjoyed the artisian role and while I had a great time dancing, when shadowfire opened and I was able to step into a clear market as an artisian I took that oppertunity and I'm enjoying it. I may sometime go back to my dancer, I did feel the lack of a clear cut role for a dancer in the advanced game, not for lack of tips or even lack of respect as a dancer just lack of respect for my choice to pursue dancing over a fighting ability if I had the desire to participate in the advanced game. I see entertainers as they are now in a clean up role not really needed for the adventure but nice to have available at the wind down. I am also disheartened by the loss of what I feel was the entertainer community in that many of the entertainers I started out with have moved on and been replaced by tip spamming bots. I was able to keep the Keren cantina fairly clean of those types by playing the this is my group, the customers come to see me and if you want to be in my group these are my rules; however playing a bitch is not a role I enjoy I am a fairly nice person in real life. Being overwhelmed by the lack of "class" I was seeing in many entertainers and in my inability to want to force my beliefs on others I choose a passive route of live and let live just don't do it here. That helped me but not the profession.
I'm not dead set against any fixes by the developers I feel that the entertainer proffession is not complete. I am dead set against a /deny command that would be intended by the developers as a tool to ward off abuse but would in fact be used by entertainers as a tool to force tipping instead. I see tips as tips. If there is a salary needed then that is something all together different. For myself I was after I achieved novice dancer and took steps to achieve the good tips always able to live off tips alone. Did I live in grand style? No but grand style was not needed for that character. She lived in the cantina and had an impressive wardrobe. Had enough skills to join a fight and weapons and armor to facilitate my need to do so. I did not have a house however I would have been able to get one if I had so desired. When I wanted more money I just danced more when I felt I had enough I did other things.
I do believe in common courtesy. That courtesy however must be given on both sides. I was always happy with a simple thank you. I also made sure that when I recieved a tip no matter what that tip was (and it was never asked for) that I showed my appreciation right back to them with a thank you of my own.
Eljer wrote:
It's poor game design that causes these issues.
This is not because of poor game design. Small details and bugs aside, the overal design of this game is outstanding. Trust me, I know what I am talking about. I have seen dozens of RPGs, from pencil and paper ones (D&D, Champions, Rolemster, Space Master, Star Frontiers, Torg...) to CRPGs (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter nights, ...) to MUDs, MUSHes, MUXes, MOOs, and, now, MMORPGs. I have never seen a better game design for encouraging roleplaying.
SOE and LucasArts may not have made it perfect in its details, but the over-arching ideas are outstanding. The idea of having certain kinds of wounds that can only be healed in a social place (hotel, cantina), and only by a socializing kind of class, was a stroke of utter genious, IMO. It more strongly encourages socializing and RP than any other RPG I have seen.
What SOE and LA perhaps did not count on was how many "l33t d00dz" would even buy this game. I don't think they are the target audience. Oh, SOE/LA will happily take their money, but what they are really trying to encourage here is to have people "get into" the SW universe and really play the part of a SW character. In other words, to roleplay. In many, many ways this game was designed from the ground up to encourage, and frankly, reward, people who roleplay. Indeed, have they not been saying all along that some amount of RP is going to be needed to unlock the Force Sensitivity slot? Nobody knows just how they are going to measure this (I assume it will be quite hard to do), but at its heart this really is a true roleplaying game (unlike most other MMORPGs before it).
Because of that, they are breaking new ground here and yes there will be some balance issues as they "fine tune" things. But on the whole the game design is just fine.
"But Chessack! We only make money from tips!" Well... duh. That's to encourage you to roleplay. You think SOE and LA are stupid? They know that people who RP and are nice to the people healing will get better tips, and that encourages further RP. Again perhaps they underestimated the vitriol of the hack-n-looters' resentment of even having to go back to town for 5 minutes and stop butchering things in the field, but I applaud them for trying to encourage RP.
BTW, this is the reason why the real entertainers (the ones who actually roleplay the class) get so frustrated at LAMErs and tip-spammers. Because those guys are not roleplaying and are turning the class into just another "grind" profession rather than a true roleplaying class.
C