Dancer Archive
Thread: The quick (and simple) solution to stopping buffbots
This would be a new interface window that you would have access to upon taking up novice entertainer. The window would be similar to the "group member" window in design and how it looked. Here is how it works:
1) Any time a player watches or listens to you their name would pop up in the window.
2) Underneath the player's name would be 3 buttons:
Heal: This button allows us to heal wounds and battle fatigue on a player at our "maximum" capability. We still heal without having to click the button but *only* at novice entertainer levels. To fully heal the player at full speed, you click the heal button.
Buff: This button starts a buff on the player. Only one non-grouped player can have a buff on them at a time. All group players can also have a buff inititiated on them.
Deny: This button would cause all services to be denied to the player(even basic Novice entertainer healing)
3) None of these buttons would have /commands. It would be like clicking accept or refuse on an ID offer. This would prevent these commands from being macroed by afk bots.
Tralmek wrote:
A simple Yes/No box like that used for surveying would be useless, there are too many ways around it. The only way a popup could work is if it included a code like those used to destroy structures. (But even this is already coded, so it shouldn't be too much trouble to adapt it to our needs.)
Again, it isn't a perfect solution, but it is something we could put in now. And all you have to do is:
1) Make sure the default choice is "cancel". So that someone couldn't simply hit return while the window is selected.
2) Make sure a buff does not start until the yes button is clicked.
The difference with surveying is that you can simply macro commands that make you stop surveying then start again. If clicking yes is the only way the actual buff starts, there is no legal way around it. At best, the player could just sit there with their mouse hovering over the yes button and manually click yes while having a targeting macro running. But they would still have to be there. if they weren't, they would have to use a 3rd party macro, and thus break the EULA.
I'm a PvPer. I'm not so fussed about roleplaying most of the time, and the social scene of the cantina generally doesnt appeal to me. My alt is logged in to buff myself and my friends chars, then typically left 'running' in the cantina.
I understand macro's and could easily make it a buff bot. The objection is see is buffbot = bad. Well - give the players a good reason NOT to need or use a buffbot.
So if the situation was that entertainer buffs are easy to find, dont have a queue, are answered promptly. take the shortest possible time, are cheap, dont care that im an uber-PVPer and they're a RPer and we disagree on idealoigical terms.. then buff bots disappear.
Buff bots will have a place while a number of dedicated and deep-pocket individuals are not met with reliable service.
Why exactly do you want to make it so much work to buff, heal or entertain? Generally I prefer the path of least resistance when performing an action. If I wanted to roleplay and entertain : having that "entertainer window" popup just ruined my game.
I got my alt because musician buffs are too damn tricky to get.. this is the prime motivating factor behind why buffbots exists!
satanis wrote:
I followed this link because of the topic. My alt is a master musician.
I'm a PvPer. I'm not so fussed about roleplaying most of the time, and the social scene of the cantina generally doesnt appeal to me. My alt is logged in to buff myself and my friends chars, then typically left 'running' in the cantina.
I understand macro's and could easily make it a buff bot. The objection is see is buffbot = bad. Well - give the players a good reason NOT to need or use a buffbot.
So if the situation was that entertainer buffs are easy to find, dont have a queue, are answered promptly. take the shortest possible time, are cheap, dont care that im an uber-PVPer and they're a RPer and we disagree on idealoigical terms.. then buff bots disappear.
Buff bots will have a place while a number of dedicated and deep-pocket individuals are not met with reliable service.
Why exactly do you want to make it so much work to buff, heal or entertain? Generally I prefer the path of least resistance when performing an action. If I wanted to roleplay and entertain : having that "entertainer window" popup just ruined my game.
I got my alt because musician buffs are too damn tricky to get.. this is the prime motivating factor behind why buffbots exists!
Sorry Satanis, but this is the most overused excuse pro-buffbotters use and, in my opinion, the one that defends buffbots the least.
PvPers go out of their way to find doc buffs. I've seen it happen. They will travel halfway across the galaxy to stop in to see a doc before moving on. I know there are less entertainers than doctors, but why should we be any different??
The reason entertainers are so hard to find is because they have been leaving their professions behind, primarily because their livelihoods are taken from them BECAUSE of buffbots. You say your buffbot is there for you and your friends. That means that you and your friends don't pay a live entertainer for their service. At an average of 5000 credits per buff (that's what I charge) and say you have, what, 9 friends that use your bot, that's 50k you're denying a live entertainer.
You mentioned yourself what the crux of the problem is: "Generally I prefer the path of least resistance when performing an action". Granted, if the Devs didn't make it so damn easy, then we may not have this problem right now. But also, if people didn't take advantage of it we wouldn't either.
Next time you're looking for a buff, perhaps try actually looking for an entertainer first. When you find one, add them to your friends list so you know when they're around next time. If you don't find one, then at least you have your alt to help you.
/preachOff 
Tralmek wrote:We don't want to make things more difficult for ourselves. If you head out to the music forums and read through the first several pages of the thread on what to do with AFK macroing, you will find a good deal of opposition to popups, removal of recursive macros, etc. However, now it is apparent that the Devs don't want to devote any time to our professions and at best might put in a half-assed solution. (I mean look what they did with the Image Designers) Therefore we are working with what we have left--giving them suggestions on the best half-solutions we can think of.There are plenty of great ideas out there on how the Developers could stop long-termAFK macroing, but they have shown their contempt for the social professions and have ignored us for a long time. Our latest plea for a life preserver has been to start throwing out these types of suggestions on fixing the problems with our professions, but we continue to be ignored. (I mean with this at least they could say: hey, we know this was a terrible solution to the problem, but you entertainers suggested it and we gave it to you. They could completely absolve themselves of responsibility.)
I wrote a better reply in Sirii's long post.
In short if your a social player.. a buff bot doesnt detract from your social play. It may actually improve it.
Those players whom you dont normally or wish to interactive with can leave you alone to socialise, or roleplay. There isnt much more immersive breaking than having an uber-l3370R PvP'er abusing you for buffs.
At the end of the day, if your playing for social reasons, whether your character can, cant or will buff is not the primary concern.
satanis wrote:
I wrote a better reply in Sirii's long post.
In short if your a social player.. a buff bot doesnt detract from your social play. It may actually improve it.
Those players whom you dont normally or wish to interactive with can leave you alone to socialise, or roleplay. There isnt much more immersive breaking than having an uber-l3370R PvP'er abusing you for buffs.
At the end of the day, if your playing for social reasons, whether your character can, cant or will buff is not the primary concern.
Ah, but buffbots do affect the social player Satanis.
First of all, even social entertainers need money for clothes, drinks, quickness buffs, even a house and a vehicle would be nice. Buffbots take away our primary source of income.
Besides that, the typical buffbot (not specifically yours, since I don't know whether you do or not) spam the crap out of the area they're 'servicing'. As a result, the general reputation of entertainers is someone who sits there zombie dancing and playing music that just fills the area with spam.
Most combat types already dispise the fact that they have to come to us for healing. This doesn't help.
Besides, I will never turn down people who want buffs unless they're rude, harass me, or refuse to pay. If they want to chat, I talk with them. If they're not social, then I keep the conversation down to "Your buff is done". I don't force my playstyle on them, yet they're perfectly allowed to ruin mine with their bots.
Not fair, right? 
Kreistor wrote:Sorry Satanis, but this is the most overused excuse pro-buffbotters use and, in my opinion, the one that defends buffbots the least.
PvPers go out of their way to find doc buffs. I've seen it happen. They will travel halfway across the galaxy to stop in to see a doc before moving on. I know there are less entertainers than doctors, but why should we be any different??
The reason entertainers are so hard to find is because they have been leaving their professions behind, primarily because their livelihoods are taken from them BECAUSE of buffbots. You say your buffbot is there for you and your friends. That means that you and your friends don't pay a live entertainer for their service. At an average of 5000 credits per buff (that's what I charge) and say you have, what, 9 friends that use your bot, that's 50k you're denying a live entertainer.
You mentioned yourself what the crux of the problem is: "Generally I prefer the path of least resistance when performing an action". Granted, if the Devs didn't make it so damn easy, then we may not have this problem right now. But also, if people didn't take advantage of it we wouldn't either.
Next time you're looking for a buff, perhaps try actually looking for an entertainer first. When you find one, add them to your friends list so you know when they're around next time. If you don't find one, then at least you have your alt to help you.
/preachOff
actually its more like 10 friends & the guild of 200+. I'd say I'm doing group buffs of 20 people several times on a nightly basis.
We're PvP'ers. If you've got a player travelling halfway across the galaxy for doctor buffs I'd call him a moron.
We've got a collection of supplies collected for the guild doctors. They are equipped with buff packs. For PvP these are provided free - at all other times the guild member is expected to contribute (resources, money, time) as 'payment'.
Crafter alt (money), Doc alt (buffs), enterainer alt (buffs), PvE alt (loot)
I'm seeing players with any two of those alt chars available to them. Service industry. We want PvP you want RPG.. they dont mix terribly well.
And - as a guild we do pay a live entertainer. The live entertainer is "me". We just dont pay them in terms of credits. While a service is being performed by my alt several people maybe 20 or more and as it happens myself included, are enjoying the game they play as a consequence.
We arent interested in providing a roleplay environment or social play. If that's why I became a Dancer I'd be very glad I didn't have to interact with these players! What we want from the game is so very different and neither is wrong.
satanis wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Sorry Satanis, but this is the most overused excuse pro-buffbotters use and, in my opinion, the one that defends buffbots the least.
PvPers go out of their way to find doc buffs. I've seen it happen. They will travel halfway across the galaxy to stop in to see a doc before moving on. I know there are less entertainers than doctors, but why should we be any different??
The reason entertainers are so hard to find is because they have been leaving their professions behind, primarily because their livelihoods are taken from them BECAUSE of buffbots. You say your buffbot is there for you and your friends. That means that you and your friends don't pay a live entertainer for their service. At an average of 5000 credits per buff (that's what I charge) and say you have, what, 9 friends that use your bot, that's 50k you're denying a live entertainer.
You mentioned yourself what the crux of the problem is: "Generally I prefer the path of least resistance when performing an action". Granted, if the Devs didn't make it so damn easy, then we may not have this problem right now. But also, if people didn't take advantage of it we wouldn't either.
Next time you're looking for a buff, perhaps try actually looking for an entertainer first. When you find one, add them to your friends list so you know when they're around next time. If you don't find one, then at least you have your alt to help you.
/preachOff
actually its more like 10 friends & the guild of 200+. I'd say I'm doing group buffs of 20 people several times on a nightly basis.
We're PvP'ers. If you've got a player travelling halfway across the galaxy for doctor buffs I'd call him a moron.
We've got a collection of supplies collected for the guild doctors. They are equipped with buff packs. For PvP these are provided free - at all other times the guild member is expected to contribute (resources, money, time) as 'payment'.
Crafter alt (money), Doc alt (buffs), enterainer alt (buffs), PvE alt (loot)
I'm seeing players with any two of those alt chars available to them. Service industry. We want PvP you want RPG.. they dont mix terribly well.
And - as a guild we do pay a live entertainer. The live entertainer is "me". We just dont pay them in terms of credits. While a service is being performed by my alt several people maybe 20 or more and as it happens myself included, are enjoying the game they play as a consequence.
We arent interested in providing a roleplay environment or social play. If that's why I became a Dancer I'd be very glad I didn't have to interact with these players! What we want from the game is so very different and neither is wrong.
Question... when your Doctor is done buffing your PvP group does he set himself up on a macro that gives buffs to anyone who wants one? Probably not because buff packs are expensive right? Lets say for a moment that Doctor buffs do not cost anything - would you set your Doctor up in Coronet and give buffs to anyone who asks (depending only on tips) and expect that the other Doctors there trying to make a living won't get upset? No, and it sounds like a pretty nasty thing to do in fact.
You buff your group members - that is perfectly fine, understandable and encouraged. It makes a dancer/musician a valued member of a group/guild. Thats one of the reason buffs were put in in the first place. But setting up your character to afk buff people in the cantina is just like loot camping a cave. Loot campers ruin that cave for other players trying to enjoy the content. You are loot-camping a cantina and ruining it for entertainer classes.
Arguing that buffs are hard to find is circuitous logic. Ask yourself WHY buffs are hard to find. It is because the cantinas have become unpleasant places for live entertainers. Buff-bots and other AFK-macroers are the cause of live buffs being hard to find, not the result.
So to sum up - Buffing your friends, guildies, and pvp teammates = good and fun. AFK loot-camping a cantina because you want the cash and don't care whose fun you ruin = bad and mean-spirited.
satanis wrote:
I followed this link because of the topic. My alt is a master musician.
I'm a PvPer. I'm not so fussed about roleplaying most of the time, and the social scene of the cantina generally doesnt appeal to me. My alt is logged in to buff myself and my friends chars, then typically left 'running' in the cantina.
I understand macro's and could easily make it a buff bot. The objection is see is buffbot = bad. Well - give the players a good reason NOT to need or use a buffbot.
So if the situation was that entertainer buffs are easy to find, dont have a queue, are answered promptly. take the shortest possible time, are cheap, dont care that im an uber-PVPer and they're a RPer and we disagree on idealoigical terms.. then buff bots disappear.
Buff bots will have a place while a number of dedicated and deep-pocket individuals are not met with reliable service.
Why exactly do you want to make it so much work to buff, heal or entertain? Generally I prefer the path of least resistance when performing an action. If I wanted to roleplay and entertain : having that "entertainer window" popup just ruined my game.
I got my alt because musician buffs are too damn tricky to get.. this is the prime motivating factor behind why buffbots exists!
I agree completely and 100% with you here. The main reasons why we have buff bots is because there is:
A) Little to draw many of the people who would use our services to us outside of being social and role playing with the game. The problem here is that those who are seeking buffs, are, on the whole, more interested in getting where they want to go, and quickly. So we have a paradox. Which is why we need more content, more abilities, more everything to give players reasons and desire to seek out live and active entertainers.
B) The system for buffing is not simple, its not elegant, and quite frankly, it is a hassle on the whole for both the entertainer and the entertainee. It needs to be more intuitive, simple, and easy to understand and use. That is partly why buff bots are so popular, the simple instructions:
- Invite me to your group, watch me now, stop watching, listen, stop listening, we're done.
It *is* making things more simple, and its less that customers have to deal with. Buff bots work, and work very well, which is why our system needs to change in ways that make it better for all involved.
Those are the core reasons behind buff bots, and until they are addressed, we are going to have problems no matter what we do.
However, in the short term, we need a temporary fix and we need something we can approach the devs with that would be accepted and easy to implement. That is why I made the proposal up above. Do not mis-understand, this is not healing our problems, this is simply a band-aid to keep us going until we get the fixes and improvements we desperately need. Bufftbots, and any unattended play is killing our profession. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it.
It is killing our profession and turning players away from a play style that is oriented around attended play. It is impacting everyone who is an entertainer in any way. It may not be a direct impact, but it for sure is an indirect one. And it slowly but increasingly is going to impact the non-entertainers as well. We are hurting and we need something to keep us going till we are healed. We don't want pop-ups either, but I think this is something that would work, and something that we could get now. Something that would keep this profession alive until things start looking up again for us once more.