Dancer Archive
Thread: Entertainer NPC's... Your Thoughts?
Page 1 of 12
Sigrun
Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:03 pm
#1
(Edits for grammar, typos, and content will be ongoing as ideas are refined through discussion.)
Problem Statement
This post is designed to discuss alternatives to answer Thunderheart's question re enabling the healing of Battle Fatigue (BF) and Mind Wounds (MW) in the absence of At-The-Keys entertainers. This is a problem that must be solved because, once combatants reach a certain level of BF and MW, they become ineffective - pretty much unable to play the game they bought SW:G to play - until they are healed.
(Partial) Solution 1 - Live Entertainers
The most obvious method of healing sans bots (which will be gone with TH's proposed implementations) would seem to be "live" entertainers. However, it is very possible that some players may be unable to locate "live" entertainers within a reasonable amount of time, even for this game that is loaded with time sinks. If combatants have to take too long to locate an Entertainer for healing, they may become discouraged or frustrated with the game. If it becomes a constant issue, they may leave the game. Obviously, this is undesirable for SOE's revenue stream and for all of our continued enjoyment of the game.
Revised Problem Statement
Still, "live" Entertainers can solve most of the problem. We just need to solve the rest of it - when "live" entertainers are not available. We also want to solve it in such a way that its solution does not negate the value of "live" Entertainers when they are present.
(Potential) Solution 2 - Heal Over Time "Hotspots" [Rejected]
One potential method to solve the rest of this problem is to enable certain structures to heal BF and MW over time. In fact, Player City cantinas do just this right now. However, the regeneration rate is so low that it requires an extended period of time to heal the BF and MW a typical adventurer can acquire during a typical play session. Again, if the player has to spend too much "down time" healing, he is likely to become frustrated or discouraged with the game and might consider leaving.
It might be possible to tweak the healing rate of these structures upwards to the point at which combatants would not become discourage or frustrated with the down time, but doing this might completely negate the usefulness of "live" Entertainers. There are better solutions.
Solution 3 - NPC Entertainers
This solution would create NPC entertainers in all or some of the (NPC) cantinas across the galaxy. These NPC Entertainers would have the following characteristics:
- They would charge the character being healed a fee based upon the level of the character's BF and MW, but only to the extent they can heal that BF and MW (see below). The price would start reasonably high (relative to typical "live" Entertainer fees or tips) for lowamounts of required healingand scale up geometrically as the amount of healing required increased. Specific fees are something that can be adjusted for "balance" during TC and even Live deployment.
- They would heal more slowly than "live" Entertainers. They should heal more slowly by a factor of 25%-100%, perhaps scaling upwards as the amount of BF and MW to be healed increases. They should never take less than 125% of what a "live" Entertainer can do in order to help preserve the value of "live" Entertainers, bu tthey should never take more than 200% of what a "live" Entertainer can do either, because they are expensive and because we don't want to inflict excessive downtime on those who are forced use this option because no "live" Entertainer is available.
- They should never heal *all* of their customers' BF or MW. This is another restriction to preserve the value of "live" Entertainers. NPC Entertainers should heal all but the last 100 points of Mind Wounds (100 points per stat) and all but the last 250 points of BF. With these restrictions, NPC entertainers can return combatants to "nearly pristine" status - they'll be able to go back out and fight slightly below their "best". This won't devalue "live" Entertainers because the NPC'scannot do the full job of healing that a "live" Entertainer can do. Again, these values can be adjusted for balance during testing.
- They should never be able to "buff" their customers. Ever. That should remain the purview of "live" Entertainers only.
Solution 3 Alternative - Disabling the NPC [Rejected]
It is possible to "turn off" NPC Entertainers if an Entertainer is present in the facility they call "home". However, this is undesirable for two reasons:
- Potential for bugs. It is entirely possible for an Entertainer to log out or be disconnected inside a Cantina. When this happens, the server may think that they are logged in for a longer period of time than they are, and thus keep the NPC disabled for that time. In this author's experience, such delays can approach 30 minutes (yes, I've logged a character out and watched its avatar sit there ingame for over 30 minutes on another computer).
- Potential for Grief. It is also entirely possible for a "live" Entertainer whose goal is to ruin the enjoyment of others to enter a Cantina and choose to not heal. In this case, the NPC Entertainer woiuld still be disabled, and combatants looking for releif would find none. Combatants would be forced to continue on their way until the were able to find a Cantina that did not house such a harrassing player. It is possible that such a combatant could contact a CSR for releif, but in this author's experience, such an action results in the appearance of a CSR between 2 and 48 hours after the report. Thiswould probably beunacceptable to most players.
Because NPC Entertainers are clearly inferior to "live" Entertainers and because of the problems inherent to this option, weshould notturn them off when live Entertainers are present. If combatants choose to go to the NPC's instead, the "live" Entertainers in the establishment can rest assured that they are paying more money for far worse service than they'd receive had they opted for the ATKperson.
Next Steps
I brought this here because for all the arguing I've done against TH's proposed changes here on this forum, I have found the majority of this forum's inhabitants to be intelligent, thoughtful, and ready to discuss options from a logical and empathetic perspective... for the most part. I hope that we can all rise to the occasion and discuss these thoughts reasonably and rationally, until we arrive at something that Panthu will happily submit to TH as the solution for BF and MW healing in the absence of "live" Entertainers.
Thank you.
Message Edited by Sigrun on 08-06-2004 07:12 PM
Esharra
Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:09 pm
#2
Solution 4: We have discussed many times the potential of recordings or holovids created by entertainers which could be sold to others. The player created recordings would provide the same healing/buffing abilities as a live entertainer. They would also give entertainers a means of income for their skillsbesides voluntary tips from other players.
Message Edited by Esharra on 08-06-2004 09:11 PM
Sigrun
Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:16 pm
#3
Esharra wrote:
Solution 4: We have discussed many times the potential of recordings or holovids created by entertainers which could be sold to others. The player created recordings would provide the same healing/buffing abilities as a live entertainer. They would also give entertainers a means of income for their skillsbesides voluntary tips from other players.
Message Edited by Esharra on 08-06-2004 09:11 PM
Are you looking for financial gain, interaction, or both? I would think that if this were to become available, Entertainer interaction with combatants would quickly be reduced to selling holo-vids. That's fine if that's what you want.
How would you envision these working? Characters always have differeing amounts of healing they require. How long does the vid do its thing? How does the healing rate compare to a "live" Entertainer? What mechanism would be required for playback?
I imagine there's a thread on this somewhere...? 
Xyrdre
Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:37 pm
#5
Another thought for consideration is in working at the source, rather than the end result.
I'm quoting my own reply to the Scout camp / Ranger camp question stickied in this forum, out of concern that these thoughts have been somewhat buried there:
Xyrdre wrote:
Has the idea been considered yet that perhaps BF is accumulating too rapidly, now that the gaming environment has changed so dramatically from the way things were at release?
There are a lot of combat players going after the higher-level content now. Krayt hunting has been all-too important for supplying Jedi with pearls. There are regular Giant Dune Kimogliahunts chasing down the elusive RIS armor component scales. The proliferation and mass-production of theSuper Battle Droidin so much of the newer content involved in the game is well known. And the BF is skyrocketing as a result of players going after this higher-end content. Is it just possible that as the game has moved up into the reaches of these more extreme battle conditions that we've seen the math break down regarding the rates at which those high levels of BF are being reached? Perhaps the calculations of how much, and how quickly,BF is accumulating is no longer appropriate for the gaming environment.
I put this idea forth because in my personal experience in design/development of games, one of the things I always considered was the rates and frequencies that I wanted things to occur, on average, and design my systems to bring that play experience into reality for the player. At the end of the day, it comes down to this... is the system supportive of the intended pace of gameplay?
The example here would be,if designing a BF accrual system, I'd look at the average stuff that players were doing (what they were out hunting), figure out about how often I would think they should have to come in and regroup/reset (how many hours of combat play seemed appropriate before setting in some cantina time), and look then at kind of dividing out the amounts of damage combat players were likely to take in the given time period that I thought they should be able to stay in the field before heading back in. That would then determine for my system how much BF comes from combat, essentially averaged out per point of damage taken.
But now, it seems, that players are getting into much higher levels ofMOBs than they were when the BF system initially was instated, and t's not the Bone Armor Warriors anymore. They have the weapons and armor developed to go after much nastier adversaries. They have the buffs to do so. And those really high-level MOBs have been added in with all the new content all along the way. Has the BF accrual rate been pro-rated to accomodate this high-level play? Not that I've seen.
I was along with a small group killing GDK's yesterday (2 TKM's and 2 master rifles (myself as one)to do the job), and the TKM's had accumulated over 750 BF in far less time than their buffs existed. We actually did have to stop in less than a 3 hour time period, and run off to a nearby town to take care of BF mid-hunt.
I can well sympathize with a combat player under these conditions - 750 BF in around 2 hours of gameplay, then with the chance that the only way they can clear that BF is to spend at least as much time sitting in a cantina autohealing than they were playing the game to get that BF in the first place. And that's not good game design. Or rather, in this case it's more of a situation where I think that one part of the game system has not evolved correctly with other parts of the game system, and now leaves an imbalance. It's happened before, and will happen again... it's the nature of systems.
Before I'd look at ways to replace professions' roles of interdependency with other players by allowing BF healing to occur in camps, I'd look at the actual effects of an old and possibly outdatedBF accrual system within avery changed playingenvironment. No matter how the math goes at BF accrual, there is always the direct look at the ratio of how much combatgame play time is intended to be 'permissable' before one has to come on in to reset in the cantina. That, I think, may well be the cause of the problem... finding alternate BF healing methods I think treats the symptom, and may end up doing more harm than good.
If the only solution to game play is the replacement of the entertainer professions with NPC's, then the core design of the interdependent system for players of this game has failed.
Dreamland
Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:51 pm
#6
The thing about npc entertainers is if they charged a specific fee then the live entertainers are bound by that same fee for thier services. unless the fee is punishingly high so as to make it more atractive to go to a live entertainer while they are available, and thenyou still have entertainers being worth less than the npc and have people going to them only to save money.
My opinion is that any system they enact that renders a class unnecessary is a negative thing. The med centers have autoheal, but in such an insubstantial amount that it is rendered useless for large wounds. and if you get a health disease that strips you to 1 hitpoint at 3 am its going to bring you to just as crashing a halt as if youget 900 battle fatigue. Theres no movement to add npc doctors going though is there? What do you do when its 11:45 and you have 1 hour remaining on your buffs but you know its going to be hard to find a doctor to rebuff you so you can hunt till 3 am? You go find one while you can and get rebuffed early because you know its coming.
If i know theres a suply and demand situation and i can go make twice as much money on tips by healing at the dantooine mining outpost at midnight when im playing anyway, you know what im gonna do it. When you create that demand people are going to start getting PAYED for thier services and they are going to move to do so.
This reminds me alot of the image designer revamp. Everyone was up in arms because they were NEVER going to be able to get a stat migration and if they could it would be 300k credits and wah wah wah. Well you know it turned out pretty good, i got a stat migration the other day and i damn sure didnt mind parting with the 15k the person was asking to do it compared to the three days it used to take to do it the old way.
I say they should remove unatended play, add no aditional features for the time being to heal players without entertainers, and see how it works first BEFORE making the descision to add something that makes entertainers unnecessary in the same pass. If its a terrible problem then something can be done about it because to me speculation that its going to be impossible to get healed is just that speculation. This game hasn't been played without the ablility to play unatended yet so to say you know what will happen with 100% certainty seems a bit premature.
Message Edited by Dreamland on 08-06-2004 08:03 PM
Message Edited by Dreamland on 08-06-2004 08:13 PM
MariusF
Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:54 pm
#7
As a casual visitor to this forum can I make a suggestion for you to discuss.
Give player cities a Radio Station / TV / Holoviewer Station as an option.
A player could then purchase a player to recieve these "broadcasts"
The base station could play recordings made by Player characters.
These recordings would be limited use and would perhaps ONLY heal BF
Players would still need visits to Cantinas for mind heals.
Recordings would be a source of income for the entertainers and making sure they are limited use would create a market.
You would then have the "buzz" of live music to mind heal and recordings for personal pleasure and relaxation.
Tiaga
Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:40 pm
#8
I've not been a fan of replacing entertainers with recordings, or of the NPCs..
But what about a compromise? Instead of the entertainer recording a show, let the person watching record, with the consent of the entertainer. Someone would only be able to hold one of these recordings... Or at least one per droid. They would then be able to play it back once, which would create an NPC that looks like the entertainer that it was recorded from to heal their mind.
That would create your NPC for off-peak healing, yet still preserve audience/entertainer interaction since they still have to go to the entertainer for the recording. Perhaps make the recording heal slower, but since they'd be hit double for the time (Once to record, once to watch) maybe that wouldn't be necessary.
But what about a compromise? Instead of the entertainer recording a show, let the person watching record, with the consent of the entertainer. Someone would only be able to hold one of these recordings... Or at least one per droid. They would then be able to play it back once, which would create an NPC that looks like the entertainer that it was recorded from to heal their mind.
That would create your NPC for off-peak healing, yet still preserve audience/entertainer interaction since they still have to go to the entertainer for the recording. Perhaps make the recording heal slower, but since they'd be hit double for the time (Once to record, once to watch) maybe that wouldn't be necessary.
FuschiaD
Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:45 pm
#9
I cannot, and will not, ever support the idea of NPC entertainers. Ever. It can and will completely negate live entertainers, no matter the precautions that are taken. We have little enough function in the game as it is; I will not support an idea that diminishes our function even further.
Tiaga's idea is respectable, and would potentially give us even MORE of a function. I like it.
Drygo
Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:50 pm
#10
So many ideas. 
I'm with Fuschia here...I cannot express how much I don't want to see NPC's doing our jobs. With the exception of automatic BF healing at a slower rate than a Novice Entertainer in a Cantina, I think that all healing and buffing, no matter what form it takes, should give financial rewards to real entertainers. I just don't see NPC's being any better than an afk player. And, I also think that allowing them in NPC Cantinas will take away business from live entertainers. If you're in Moenia for example, and you have to make a choice between the NPC person or going to Theed, it may very well be that you could get your healing faster from an NPC rather than waiting for the shuttle to go to Theed, where it's very likely you will find an entertainer. I'm really, really, against the idea of NPC's. I dunno why I feel so strongly, but I do. I think a lot of it's mental...I mean, I just feel that if an NPC can do the same thing that we can do, it just reinforces the idea that there's no reason for us to exist. And, I just rather not open that door. I'd rather not hear people asking for the NPC's to be able to heal faster. I'd rather not see posts glorifying the existence of NPC's because we live players are too pompous, or never available, or whatever the case. I just think it's degrading, I guess. And, I've already been battered enough from afk people and buffbots.
I really think instead we should be finding ways, even if it doesn't involve financial rewards, for *us* to be providing the service. This can take the form of BF healing in camps with an available entertainer, or holovids, or other things that I and others may not have thought of yet.
I have liked the idea of holovids a lot ever since I first heard about them. It may not be the best solution, but for some reason it sounds appealing to me. We don't have to craft them, some of you may have already read my posts on the subject on the new recursive macro discussion thread. But, if done properly, holovids would provide a more expensive alternative than a live buffer. An alternative that would make healing and buffing available to all, while still encouraging trying to get a live person to do it first. It also would promote interdependency among entertainers, artisans (to craft the modules), Droid Engineers (to make the droids) and merchants (to sell the product), while at the same time allowing the combat player to get the services they need. And, yes, my goal here is to make money.
I am of the opinion that people really shouldn't be forced to play the game a certain way. I definitely think interdependency and socialization should be encouraged, but I don't think it should be forced. Recording vids (not crafting...artisans and DE's would do the crafting part) encourages interdependence among several different professions, but doesn't force it. And, I've always maintained that, while not perfect, we *are* able to entertain, and to entertain well. And, I'd love to get to a point where we're not so broken that we can actually stop having to think about afk and buffing and actually try to get some more cool stuff likeprops, fixing flourishes, etc. I'd love to actually be able to discuss that kind of thing instead of what we've practically been forced into discussing the past 6 months.
My point is, as entertainers, our "entertaining" should be an option of gameplay that we can perform in venues for people that actually want to be entertained. I really don't care to be forced to entertain people that don't want to be entertained. Let them use the vids if that's how they want to play. There are so many ways that we can entertain. And, when I have performed, whether through a structured performance or in a regular old Cantina, or even in a starport, there are people that come to watch to have fun, and to be entertained. They are out there and they will come, I honestly have no doubts in my mind about this. I honestly don't believe that giving other options such as vids will keep those types of people from coming to see us, and inviting us to their RP events, or whatever other kind of event or venue that we can think of. We have the tools and we have the audience. So, yes, the healing and buffing part, to me is all about financial viability. NPC's, whether healers or buffers, take that away from the players. They can't and never will be able to take away our performance or our quality as entertainers. Holovids, on the other hand, if done properly, can be a promoter of interdependence and a financial reward for us. I'd like to see them available for a price, higher than that of a live dancer, but available for people that need them in off hours, or don't want to take 30 min. worth of starport trips to find somebody. After all, I want to free up some of my time to perform and to do other things with my character as well.
I think people have a point that mind buffs can be scarce at times. I don't necessarily believe BF is going to be a problem, but if it is, this gives another option. And, if people can whip out some holovids to help us make money, but still free up my time to do real performances and go fight things, or whatever other professions you may enjoy, I think that's a good thing.
So, anyway, this is my idea on holovids:
1.) Droid Engineers make specific droids for this express purpose. Two types of droids. One for the consumer to watch the vids. One for the Entertainer to record the vids.(income and interdependence for DE's).
2.) Artisans of a certain level make modules for the holovids (maybe even restrict these to DE's?). These modules, of course, take resources that the artisan will either have to gather or buy. The artisans sell the modules to the Entertainers at a reasonable price dependent on resources and time. (artisan interdependence)
3.) Entertainers record the holovids. Entertainers will *not* be crafting under this scenario. They will be recording either dance or music vids, just like with the playback droids. These modules can be sold directly from the entertainer to the patron. Or, they can be put on vendors (merchant interdependence--both entertainer and merchant make money from this.) It would take 3.5 minutes to record the buff video (or BF video, maybe less time, maybe more depending on the potency of the healing.) The fact that no factories can be involved in the recording of the vid, and that it takes a full 3.5 minutes to do so, for buffs for example, means that the market will not become over saturated.
So...this is how it goes. Artisan makes money by selling to entertainer at higher cost than resources. Entertainer makes money by selling to merchant at higher cost then module alone. Merchant makes money by selling to patron at higher cost than is put on vendor by entertainer. All of this means that in the end, the vids cost more than a live entertainer would. This means live entertainers are a better choice if they are around. Also, it means entertainers are a better choice for group buffs. We can do 19, the video can only do one person.
Under this type of scenario, we have lots of interdependence, and potential to make money by various professions, and lots of happy combat players. All while making the live performer more desirable and sought after. NPC's can do none of this.
Message Edited by Drygo on 08-06-2004 10:00 PM
Oqua
Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:15 pm
#11
An NPC?
Hmmm..sounds like another type of "bot" to me.
Sorry, but no. I don't like the idea of being replaced by any type of bot like device. Seems like you are just replacing a bot with another type of bot.
Why were we given buffs in the first place? Has anyone forgotten about that?
I can tell you it wasn't so the combat classes would have it "easier" to find buffs or healing, whenever they wished...yet these NPC's are being suggested just for that. I don't see any medical bots outside the starport in direct competition with the doctor's buffing, nor has anyone suggested it. I can't count the number of times I asked a doctor to heal me only to get the response "I don't carry stims...why don't you take up novice medic".
I remember being a bit sad back around October, telling Taewyn that everyone makes fun of dancers. They either think of us as a profession of basically "nothing" or eyecandy to try and flirt/cyber with. He said "be patient honey, there are some things the devs are thinking about that will make your class so useful soon....everyone will be needing a dancer before they go on hunts."
Sure enough, he was right.
Buffs were implemented to give us some "use" in the game I thought....much as stat migration was recently given to Image Designers. To make the entertainers "work" with other aspects of the game, as an integral cog.
Now that that has been abused and twisted by some for either their own buff purposes or what have you, its to be taken away from us ...for what reason?
Because a few (I won't say all, because I know many combat people who think any abuse of the macro system is wrong...i.e. macro'ing jedi etc. etc.) have gotten so use to getting this they no longer wish to depend on our class for anything?
If I am being a bit harsh...or dramatic..forgive me please. I do think aftera fewposts by many here, seeing the derision and disdain our professions are held by some, I am allowed a little dramatic license.
There have been equitable suggestions offered to help with the healing of BF during peak off hours, such as healing in a camp by a Master Ranger, or the healing that a cantina does turned up a tiny bit.
Anything other then this I think is too much. You may think me being "selfish" or "unkind"...but how am I being that? The game started out without buffs. If we had never been given them in the first place, to further the "worth" of the entertainment professions in the game, we wouldn't be in this predicament. What was once seen by the devs as a way to give us more "function" in the game is slowly trying to be stripped by those that see us as having no place in the SWG realm.
So again..in answer to your question...No. No NPC bots.
Oqua
Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:21 pm
#12
And yes I know...you all are trying to find ways to appease the people who say they will never be able to find an entertainer.
I do think you all are doing a great job in trying to think up ways...
And Fuschia and Drygo, I think you both said it so well and eloquently.
*** I would have edited my post with the above statements..but no edit button for little Oqua 
...I am sick with the flu and on meds...so forgive me if I hop around in my wording***
...I am sick with the flu and on meds...so forgive me if I hop around in my wording***
Dreamland
Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:29 pm
#13
Drygo wrote:
3.) Entertainers record the holovids. Entertainers will *not* be crafting under this scenario. They will be recording either dance or music vids, just like with the playback droids. These modules can be sold directly from the entertainer to the patron. Or, they can be put on vendors (merchant interdependence--both entertainer and merchant make money from this.) It would take 3.5 minutes to record the buff video (or BF video, maybe less time, maybe more depending on the potency of the healing.) The fact that no factories can be involved in the recording of the vid, and that it takes a full 3.5 minutes to do so, for buffs for example, means that the market will not become over saturated.
That does leave the door open though for existing buffbot users to just keep thier buffbot to crank out holos to buff themselves and guildies, reducing the demand for buffs and alowing them to stockpile buffs.
Maybe if the holorecordings had a lifespan like candles only much shorter, this way someone couldn't take a buffbot and stockpile holorecordings, thus limiting market saturation further.
I still like Tiagas compromise better though because it preserves the audience interaction as the cusomer has to come to an entertainer to record the performance. maybe that system combined with short lifespan recordings.
Message Edited by Dreamland on 08-06-2004 10:35 PM
Page 1 of 12