Dancer Archive
Thread: Group changes
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LyteFoot
Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:30 am
#1
I haven't done a lot of grouping on TC5 but I keep hearing that groups are not only limited to 8 but are also limited by levels. So a master and novice can't group together. Is this true? Has anyone raised this issue to the Devs, this will take XP gains for aspiring entertainers down to the point that they never level. It isn't just the smaller groups that will affect them, it is also the fact they won't be able to group with a master and gain the increases in XP from them. It also means we can't group newer players and teach them the fun things like synch dancing, band performance, etc. So now all those healing boxes come from one slowly accumulated pool of BF, smaller groups will be splitting up the ents trying to get that healing, smaller groups will be reducing performance xp, group level limits will keep the new players from performing with the experienced players, leveling will take a friggin year.
I'm just not getting where the devs think all these limits are adding fun to a game. To be honest I don't think they care anymore so long as they can get the code merged with EQ2 so they don't have to maintain but one game.
I'm just not getting where the devs think all these limits are adding fun to a game. To be honest I don't think they care anymore so long as they can get the code merged with EQ2 so they don't have to maintain but one game.
Drygo
Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:33 am
#2
LyteFoot wrote:
I haven't done a lot of grouping on TC5 but I keep hearing that groups are not only limited to 8 but are also limited by levels. So a master and novice can't group together. Is this true? Has anyone raised this issue to the Devs, this will take XP gains for aspiring entertainers down to the point that they never level. It isn't just the smaller groups that will affect them, it is also the fact they won't be able to group with a master and gain the increases in XP from them. It also means we can't group newer players and teach them the fun things like synch dancing, band performance, etc. So now all those healing boxes come from one slowly accumulated pool of BF, smaller groups will be splitting up the ents trying to get that healing, smaller groups will be reducing performance xp, group level limits will keep the new players from performing with the experienced players, leveling will take a friggin year.
I'm just not getting where the devs think all these limits are adding fun to a game. To be honest I don't think they care anymore so long as they can get the code merged with EQ2 so they don't have to maintain but one game.
Oh sweet mother of...
I don't know if this is true, but if so, then
/weep
This isn't the game I've signed up for. 
Remember those other posts where I said this was still the best game out there? /sigh.
Make all these changes and it no longer is...
I think I'm going to go impale myself on a pike.
Message Edited by Drygo on 04-06-2005 04:37 AM
Petronela
Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:41 am
#3
Last time I was there (few days ago) the group limit was 8 players. So yes, that part is (was) definitely true. However few people told me it's only temporarily. I am unsure if they said so because they know something rest of us don't or if it was only wishful thinking on their part.
I was not aware of the level difference limitations.
If it's the way it is, than only "ignorantly lame" comes up as description of what I would think of it. Ok, few other things come to mind but none of it would pass the forum-filter.
Deli'ah
Mystyrys
Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:51 am
#4
Level limitations?!?! Nooooo! One of the things I love most about this game is that groups can be anylevels and work well together! Why in the world would they make level limitations? That's horrid! I sure hope it's only a temporary testing limitation and not meant to go live.
Allia_Rain
Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:56 am
#5
The group limit of 8 unfortunitly sounds like something that will stay, all for the tactics and 'fun' of choosing which professions you really want in your group.
I don't think it will badly effect dancers geting dance xp though.It didn't take me that long to get all the dance xp I needed to master dancing in Mos Eisley or in player cantina's and the groups were rarely more then 8 entertainers.
Hopefully the limit on different levels being in the same group isn't true, would sap some more of the fun out of the game if it is.
LyteFoot
Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:54 am
#6
Allia_Rain wrote:The group limit of 8 unfortunitly sounds like something that will stay, all for the tactics and 'fun' of choosing which professions you really want in your group.
The problem is that quiet often my guild goes on hunts with more people than this for the fun of friends being together. I'm really confused at what the goal is. I thought they were balancing combat classes, not it seems the only goal is to make this game use the EQ2 code so they can cut head count in development.
Hobbytla
Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:14 am
#7
I'm not the grouping kinda person.... perhaps it will be more interesting when the elite professions start testing, since that's when the differences between the professions will really be obvious....
However - as far as I have understood, the limit in levels is to the XP. Since everyone in the group get the same XP, apparently the XP cap pretty low, depending on the lowest level member.
This makes sense for combat - how fair is it that a novice marksman groups with a master pistoleer and get perhaps 4000 XP as long as he hits the target with one shot?
What they haven't taken into account however is how many people enjoy grouping with friends, and don't like the idea of being forced to group with strangers of their level. Combat players are complaining about this - the current system simply divides XP by effort, so everyone can get their fair share, not the SAME XP, and grouping with friends is what most people expected from this.
Pretty much everyone in a guild enjoy at least the occasional guild hunt where everyone get together to have fun and perhaps bring in some money or harvested resources, and the feedback so far that I've seen has been very negative to this new grouping strategy.
I don't have an entertainer on TC-5, so I don't know if this happens with entertainers too. It could be that it doesn't - it depends. Doesyour level go up when you are higher in the skilltree as an entertainer? Or are entertainers just level 1 as a non-combat character? Because if the novice entertainer and the master is both the same level according to this new system, then this won't affect entertainer grouping. If not, then they need to be made aware of it.
Eaca
Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:36 am
#8
Entertainer works exactly the same on TC5 as it does on live, with the only exception is now we can't make our big groups for our high XP boosts. I know it CAN be done in groups less than 8, but there are still lots of times in theed we have groups where there's more than 8 live entertainers. With the huge BF and therefor huge EH xp nerf and loss of mind wounds, you'll have 2 groups fighting over the minimal BF, making it take twice as long to level as it would with a group of 20.
kirah_ashlin
Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:01 pm
#9
Do we know if masters will continue to be able to heal BF faster than novices yet, or do we have to wait until the frogs are unleashed on TC5? Because if masters do heal BF faster, even if the amounts are going to be smaller, and master and novices can't group as has been described here, then novices are sunk . . . .
Panthu
Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:52 pm
#10
kirah_ashlin wrote:
Do we know if masters will continue to be able to heal BF faster than novices yet, or do we have to wait until the frogs are unleashed on TC5? Because if masters do heal BF faster, even if the amounts are going to be smaller, and master and novices can't group as has been described here, then novices are sunk . . . .
No, there is no restriction on who you group with. There are combat factors that have nothing to do with ent leveling. Just combat XP gains.
The eight player limit thing is going to be a pain for performances though. Hopefully Eshie can get some talks started on Ent Super Groups. Like maybe a skill in our knowledge line (because that's the Choreographer title) that let's you be able to bandflo Ent Squadrons. Like, maybe working up to 5 total groups once you get the highest level, which would allow for 40... that would be a nice size.
Even cooler would be that might be a way to make real chorus lines and do cool segments like that. So, the leader in each subgroup would call their section's bandflos, but then the master leader could call the ones to sync all the groups.
Anyway, whether or not this gets looks into and how soon prolly will have something to do with whether or not SLs get it for combat... if they do though, hopefully we could borrow some code.
Message Edited by Panthu on 04-06-2005 07:57 PM
Drygo
Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:04 pm
#11
Panthu wrote:
kirah_ashlin wrote:
Do we know if masters will continue to be able to heal BF faster than novices yet, or do we have to wait until the frogs are unleashed on TC5? Because if masters do heal BF faster, even if the amounts are going to be smaller, and master and novices can't group as has been described here, then novices are sunk . . . .
No, there is no restriction on who you group with. There are combat factors that have nothing to do with ent leveling. Just combat XP gains.
The eight player limit thing is going to be a pain for performances though. Hopefully Eshie can get some talks started on Ent Super Groups. Like maybe a skill in our knowledge line (because that's the Choreographer title) that let's you be able to bandflo Ent Squadrons. Like, maybe working up to 5 total groups once you get the highest level, which would allow for 40... that would be a nice size.
Even cooler would be that might be a way to make real chorus lines and do cool segments like that. So, the leader in each subgroup would call their section's bandflos, but then the master leader could call the ones to sync all the groups.
Anyway, whether or not this gets looks into and how soon prolly will have something to do with whether or not SLs get it for combat... if they do though, hopefully we could borrow some code.
Message Edited by Panthu on 04-06-2005 07:57 PM
Well, I'm very happy to hear that levels won't affect grouping. However, the limit of 8 really bugs me. And, believe it or not, I'm not only thinking of entertainers in this respect. Definitely, group performances (cantina crawls, anyone?) are not going to be the same.
But, you know what...combat characters too! I mean, everybody already knows by now that it will be MUCH harder to kill things and escape alive after the CU. Now they have even made it ten times harder by limiting you to 8. It's not even like you can go in with multiple groups, because only one is going to be getting experience.
I'm sitting here half laughing half crying (well, not really crying but you know what I mean). I cannot believe they have made so many massive changes! I'm not adverse to change believe me. But there are just so many things that they're changing that seem not only a little bad...but, horribly, massively bad. How in the world can they think these things are good for the game?!
Panthu
Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:16 pm
#12
Drygo wrote:
How in the world can they think these things are good for the game?!
Six to eight is the normal size for an RPG party. You only have so many combat roles to fill for a normal encounter. This makes team building important and gameplay more tactical. How many tanks do you need for this type of encounter? How many mezzers? Healers? Damage dealers? Usually there are a few options for each scenario that still get the best results.
Combat in SWG has been totally redesigned to fit this role based gameplay. So far what I've seen on TC5 looks to be doing what it's supposed to, we'll be able to see better as soon as they open up elites though.
Anyway, the only time you need super huge groups in most games are for raids. So, a lot of games give some kind of raid group option or squadron leader type option (depending on the game fiction). So, I think this is what SLs are going for as a Prof ability that a lot of people always expected them to have by their name. If so, we should be able to get a Band Leader/Troupe Leader type option in our trees.
I doubt we would get it first, because it might open us up to people trying to use it to exploit combat... and we don't really want anything that would attract that kind of player to Ent anyway, it would just be the Bot problem all over again.
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