Dancer Archive

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KaiaClodgah wrote:
Careful, Esharra, and don't rock the boat too much on dancer issues...the AS corrospondant already got canned today and deprived of blue glowie status. Wouldn't want every corro to get sacked.

I'm not an AS and I don't read their boards, but this really speaks for SOE's willingness to understand the desperation of their player base.

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Message Edited by DanceRulez on 04-14-2005 04:24 PM

Message Edited by EsclavoTKM on 04-14-2005 04:30 PM

E'sclavo Lares'an Bria Galaxy ~ Master Dancer/Master Creature Handler/Imperial Mansloot ~
Silencio Lares'an Tarquinas Galaxy ~ Teras Kasi Master/Master Doctor ~
Besa mi piel
No temas más por nada, siénteme!
Quiero que vengas para darme tu calor
Me queman tus caricias... de pasión!

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Esharra wrote:

(...)

I know it is tough for us to imagine the dev's vision of the game's direction. It is not easy for a player to see a game as a whole. We see our game, our interests but beyond that, it is hard to focus on the overall picture.

The reason this is tough is because they do not - ever - tell us about their vision. And from that, many players (me included) have started to doubt they even have a vision at all. SOE's total lack of communication has made them look like completely clueless, bumbling fools time and time again. And this is not a picture they seem to care to correct, which only reinforces it. Kind of a vicious circle, if you know what I mean.

(...)

We are still an experiment..they can't build us off a formula, as they can with combat..there are no maps where we are going.

This game is now almost 2 years old, which is a long time in computer gaming. If after all thistime we are STILL an experiment, then it's only because SOE has neglected us for so long. They had something really new, really original with the inclusion of a "social" play-style, something which could have made that game stand out far above the rest (actually, it has made this game stand out), but they never bothered to work on that, they never gave us the special consideration we as an experiment would have needed. By now there damn well SHOULD be "maps where we are going", and I blame SOE for them not being there.

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Esharra wrote:

In this game, as with any organization, there are appropriate channels of communication. You guys all work or go to school..you understand the reasoning behind the processes imbedded in your occupations..you surely don't need me to explain the importance of such things.

This forum is the appropriate venue for Dancer input. As you all know, my responsibility is to read every post and gleen from them ideas and information that we, the players, think will make our game better. Our responsibility as players is to post our opinions and ideas, honestly and sanely. This responsibility is not to the devs but to ourselves.

We're going to get our best reactions from them by being constructive. How we provide our feedback is just as impactful as what we have to say (and yeah..believe it or not..we do make an impact).

I know everyone is very frustrated right now. It might *appear* to some that we have lost our game. Players of most/all the professions are experiencing that feeling in one way or another..the game is changing and some of the changes are very big.It is easy to focus on the short term in the context of a game where you can finish a template in a matter of days..hours. But we've far from lost.

I know it is tough for us to imagine the dev's vision of the game's direction. It is not easy for a player to see a game as a whole. We see our game, our interests but beyond that, it is hard to focus on the overall picture.

In an interview a couple of years ago I was told the following by a game designer (who is not with SOE) on the topic of player participation in MMOG development:

“It’s probably best to think of it as a political system, such as our pluralistic US system, where different interest groups are battling it out for influence, and it’s hoped that the right processes are in place so that the eventual outcome is close to optimal in terms of resolution.”

Another one (also not with SOE), in a moment of frustration, said:

"It's like a bad marriage that you can't escape from. You both stay in it for the children, yet seem hell bent on making each other miserable."

Guess which view I would prefer our devs to have of Dancers.

What we have "lost"...in the short term..is what motivated the bots. And it might take a little time without it for the bots to all go away. What we started playing for we still have. And we're going to get a lot more. Based on what we have been told, it will be implemented in a way that rewards the players and discourages unattended play.

Frankly, I'd prefer we didn't get stuff that took them a month to put together, test and prop to live. We are still an experiment..they can't build us off a formula, as they can with combat..there are no maps where we are going. I want them to take their time. And I plan on nagging you guys for input, trashing the forum with polls and patiently submitting our ideas along the way. Because that's how I believe our best game will be born.

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Landlubber wrote:

Esharra, my apologies for commenting on just two of your statements from that excellent post of yours, and quite possibly taking them out of context while doing so, but these were what stuck out for me...

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Esharra wrote:

(...)

I know it is tough for us to imagine the dev's vision of the game's direction. It is not easy for a player to see a game as a whole. We see our game, our interests but beyond that, it is hard to focus on the overall picture.

The reason this is tough is because they do not - ever - tell us about their vision. And from that, many players (me included) have started to doubt they even have a vision at all. SOE's total lack of communication has made them look like completely clueless, bumbling fools time and time again. And this is not a picture they seem to care to correct, which only reinforces it. Kind of a vicious circle, if you know what I mean.

(...)

We are still an experiment..they can't build us off a formula, as they can with combat..there are no maps where we are going.

This game is now almost 2 years old, which is a long time in computer gaming. If after all this time we are STILL an experiment, then it's only because SOE has neglected us for so long. They had something really new, really original with the inclusion of a "social" play-style, something which could have made that game stand out far above the rest (actually, it has made this game stand out), but they never bothered to work on that, they never gave us the special consideration we as an experiment would have needed. By now there damn well SHOULD be "maps where we are going", and I blame SOE for them not being there.

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E'sclavo Lares'an Bria Galaxy ~ Master Dancer/Master Creature Handler/Imperial Mansloot ~
Silencio Lares'an Tarquinas Galaxy ~ Teras Kasi Master/Master Doctor ~
Besa mi piel
No temas más por nada, siénteme!
Quiero que vengas para darme tu calor
Me queman tus caricias... de pasión!

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Landlubber wrote:

Esharra, my apologies for commenting on just two of your statements from that excellent post of yours, and quite possibly taking them out of context while doing so, but these were what stuck out for me...

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Esharra wrote:

(...)

I know it is tough for us to imagine the dev's vision of the game's direction. It is not easy for a player to see a game as a whole. We see our game, our interests but beyond that, it is hard to focus on the overall picture.

The reason this is tough is because they do not - ever - tell us about their vision. And from that, many players (me included) have started to doubt they even have a vision at all. SOE's total lack of communication has made them look like completely clueless, bumbling fools time and time again. And this is not a picture they seem to care to correct, which only reinforces it. Kind of a vicious circle, if you know what I mean.

I think the vicious circle is rooted in our expectation that dev/player communication is supposed to be a two-way street.

Participatory design concepts are a product of the corporate environment, where the devs and the end users are all employed by the same entity to fulfill the entity's goals. In the corporate environment, where the concepts were born, each end user group has their own goals; accomplishing the tasks and ease of use being predominant..but it all comes down to accomplishing the goals of the hiring entity. These concepts don't transpose cleanly onto MMOG development.

In a game, the devs are hired by an entity (the license holder) to accomplish the entity's goals..to write a game that will be fun and balanced and last as much as eight to ten years. The players are subscribers to a leisure time service but have a tendency to want to believe that the devs are hired to accomplish the players' goals..to provide them with activities that will satisfy their desires for challenge, accomplishment and reward over a period ranging from 6 months to two years on average (I won't go into how a game lifecycle is different from the lifecyle of gamehoppers and fanbois..the labels I've applied to the short-term and long-term players..while it is somewhat relevant in understanding our motivations..it is longer than I want to deal with this morning). I think our goals, in their subjective nature, are too different from the more objective goals of the developers to readilysupport the two-way communication we so desire.

While I understand that we want that communication and why we want it, I can also understand why the devs are not as forthcoming with it as we would like. I'm willing to explore possible ways to bridge this gap in communication that has left us so frustrated.

(...)

We are still an experiment..they can't build us off a formula, as they can with combat..there are no maps where we are going.

This game is now almost 2 years old, which is a long time in computer gaming. If after all thistime we are STILL an experiment, then it's only because SOE has neglected us for so long. They had something really new, really original with the inclusion of a "social" play-style, something which could have made that game stand out far above the rest (actually, it has made this game stand out), but they never bothered to work on that, they never gave us the special consideration we as an experiment would have needed. By now there damn well SHOULD be "maps where we are going", and I blame SOE for them not being there.

I seriously hope they do not have a vision that they've grasped and held onto for two years. I'd much rather we had the room to evolve and a set vision..an expectation..would limit our evolution.

In "HEARTS, CLUBS, DIAMONDS, SPADES: PLAYERS WHO SUIT MUDS", Bartle defines the Socializer in his taxonomy as follows;

"Players use the game's communicative facilities, and apply the role-playing that these engender, as a context in which to converse (and otherwise interact) with their fellow players."

Raph chose to apply this to SWG and gave us entertainer skills as something to do while we socialize and tossed in some healing skills for a reason to bring us and others together in one place.

Keep in mind, this is speculation on my part but I honestly don't think it crossed their minds that we would view the entertainer professions as something we would want gameplay from. I suspect that they figured those players more inclined to be social would play mixed templates and entertain in their downtime from other professions. That socializing, in itself, would be the goal.

The gaming elements of challenge, achievement and reward are well defined and somewhat easy to apply in a crafting context, much more so in a combat context. But applying them in a social context? Panthu has hinted in several of her posts that we have grown outside of the original concept. I play an entertainer (4 ent chars really) and in spite of having some insight on game design, I don't have us figured out..not by a long stretch. I don't mind if we're an experiment for a few more years.

Just when I think I've got a good handle on what I want gameplay to be like for entertainers, I go to the cantina in Theed and see the group of dancers there. They have gathered around their enjoyment of just sitting in group and chatting all day while their avatars animate. I can see the pve and pvp elements of their socializing but just sitting in group all day doesn't give me the sense of accomplishment I desire. While it isn't my kind of challenge, it does seem to accomplish the goals of most of the entertainers on the servers I play on (Chilastra, Bria, Starsider & Tempest).

I gain a lot of satisfaction from performing at events. While that player created content is fun for me, I would like some dev created content as well. I enjoyed the theater quests..not that they were particularly challenging but in that it was fun to have something new & different to do that didn't require a lot of planning on my part. But recently I needed to find dancers who had learned Theatrical (1) on one server for a video. It was easy for me to come up with a few off the top of my head..me, Scip, 2 of my closest friends and another friend who I see less frequently but knew had learned it. And the list stopped there. So I hit the cantinas and asked around. I got two more names. I started asking why no one had done the quest. The universal answer was that they weren't interested in it. Not that it seemed like it would be boring but that their interest in playing a dancer was satisfied by dancing in their group and occassionally providing buffage for their friends. Of course I thought immediately of the demographics (the area where I've worked in MMOG design). On a server where I know there are probably between 150 & 200 master dancers and I can find 7 who have participated in what is essentially our only post-release content.

As a whole, entertainers are much more diverse in our game expectations than are crafters and combatters. The vast majority of us seem quite satisfied with the state of the professions, except of course for the unattended play problem. Those of us who come to the forum, come here seeking out more gameplay, something from which we can derive a sense of satisfaction differently from those who are happy to sit in group all day and chat. We arethe enigma.

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Esharra wrote:

As a whole, entertainers are much more diverse in our game expectations than are crafters and combatters. The vast majority of us seem quite satisfied with the state of the professions, except of course for the unattended play problem. Those of us who come to the forum, come here seeking out more gameplay, something from which we can derive a sense of satisfaction differently from those who are happy to sit in group all day and chat. We arethe enigma.

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