Dancer Archive
Thread: Confessions of an optimist
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picklesSW
Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:34 am
#1
I was an optimist going into the combat upgrade thing.
I knew going in that we weren't targetted for improvements, but I truly believed we were in for at least a decent change when they adjusted buffs to scale them appropriately. At the very least there would be less purpose for bots, right? Sure, it might cut into our profits, but I've always been willing to accept that in exchange for a reduction in AFKing and bots. Surely at least the situation couldn't get worse.
Then they shipped it to test center. Even then, I didn't worry too much. I figured some of the things they were trying out would get adjusted. And now here we stand today, a few scant weeks before this thing ships, and I'm forced to look at the changes and I'm truly and utterly horrified by what I see will ship.
In my humble opinion, things are indeed getting worse. I don't think it's the devs' intention to alienate our professions, but it's perfectly obvious to me that we're not, and never were, a priority. Perhaps that is the way it should be, as the majority of this game's players want combat and crafting, not social play.
I would like to look at the changes, as they would suggest, with an eye on the future. A future that contains new buffs we can apply, a future where botting will be minimized and entertainers will have a place, a purpose, and a way of making money. But the realist in me then pulls me back down from the clouds and says, "HEY! Get back down here, and take a look at what we now HAVE, because everything else is a promise that may or may not come to pass." And here is what I see.
The AFK and bot situation will probably go on unabated, the bots will simply deliver 10% XP buffs that everyone wants. On top of that, they've now pulled a 180 and stated that, despite everything they've said for the past year or so, AFKing will continue to be a valid method of playing in this game. They're never going to get rid of it. This is a crushing blow to me.
Group size is being reduced to 8. I completely understand this from a combat point of view. To entertainers, it's terrible. To someone who runs large scale events where 100 entertainers gather and perform, it's a logistical nightmare and a disaster.
We will not be able to wear armor and utilize weapons for dance routines. To some, this is a positive, as people who earn the ability to wear certain armors don't want everyone else getting that ability and that "cool look" for free. To pure entertainers, however, this cannot be looked at as anything but an ability taken away. We could wear and use certain items, may even own said items, and now we cannot. No way to spin that positively, it's removal of an ability.
To balance those negatives, I can find no positives. To be fair, I didn't really expect any positives in the combat upgrade...but I also didn't really expect any negatives and there they are. So this "upgrade" goes live in a few weeks and, barring any significant changes, I can see nothing but negatives for us.
I don't want to look at this whole thing negatively. I realize combat has long needed an upgrade. But so have entertainers, and tossing a new dance or two at us isn't it. I believe the devs are trying to tell us they will adjust things and make our professions better with more buffs and all in the future, but I'm sorry, there's no faith left in this dancer that they will ever fulfill on a promise like that. I believe the devs have good intentions where we are concerned, I don't think they are "out to get us". But I also believe we are at the bottom of the priority ladder and will always be there, and as such, I don't believe we will be getting any improvements anytime soon, despite their promises.
This is not a quitting post. I am actively playing EQ2 and SWG at the same time and I see no reason to cancel SWG when it's only costing me $7 over my EQ2 subscription, and does provide social fun at times. I'm just stating, I gues, that I am profoundly disappointed and depressed at what is happening here. I'm hoping that someone out there can lift my spirits by saying it's not as bad as what I see.
I knew going in that we weren't targetted for improvements, but I truly believed we were in for at least a decent change when they adjusted buffs to scale them appropriately. At the very least there would be less purpose for bots, right? Sure, it might cut into our profits, but I've always been willing to accept that in exchange for a reduction in AFKing and bots. Surely at least the situation couldn't get worse.
Then they shipped it to test center. Even then, I didn't worry too much. I figured some of the things they were trying out would get adjusted. And now here we stand today, a few scant weeks before this thing ships, and I'm forced to look at the changes and I'm truly and utterly horrified by what I see will ship.
In my humble opinion, things are indeed getting worse. I don't think it's the devs' intention to alienate our professions, but it's perfectly obvious to me that we're not, and never were, a priority. Perhaps that is the way it should be, as the majority of this game's players want combat and crafting, not social play.
I would like to look at the changes, as they would suggest, with an eye on the future. A future that contains new buffs we can apply, a future where botting will be minimized and entertainers will have a place, a purpose, and a way of making money. But the realist in me then pulls me back down from the clouds and says, "HEY! Get back down here, and take a look at what we now HAVE, because everything else is a promise that may or may not come to pass." And here is what I see.
The AFK and bot situation will probably go on unabated, the bots will simply deliver 10% XP buffs that everyone wants. On top of that, they've now pulled a 180 and stated that, despite everything they've said for the past year or so, AFKing will continue to be a valid method of playing in this game. They're never going to get rid of it. This is a crushing blow to me.
Group size is being reduced to 8. I completely understand this from a combat point of view. To entertainers, it's terrible. To someone who runs large scale events where 100 entertainers gather and perform, it's a logistical nightmare and a disaster.
We will not be able to wear armor and utilize weapons for dance routines. To some, this is a positive, as people who earn the ability to wear certain armors don't want everyone else getting that ability and that "cool look" for free. To pure entertainers, however, this cannot be looked at as anything but an ability taken away. We could wear and use certain items, may even own said items, and now we cannot. No way to spin that positively, it's removal of an ability.
To balance those negatives, I can find no positives. To be fair, I didn't really expect any positives in the combat upgrade...but I also didn't really expect any negatives and there they are. So this "upgrade" goes live in a few weeks and, barring any significant changes, I can see nothing but negatives for us.
I don't want to look at this whole thing negatively. I realize combat has long needed an upgrade. But so have entertainers, and tossing a new dance or two at us isn't it. I believe the devs are trying to tell us they will adjust things and make our professions better with more buffs and all in the future, but I'm sorry, there's no faith left in this dancer that they will ever fulfill on a promise like that. I believe the devs have good intentions where we are concerned, I don't think they are "out to get us". But I also believe we are at the bottom of the priority ladder and will always be there, and as such, I don't believe we will be getting any improvements anytime soon, despite their promises.
This is not a quitting post. I am actively playing EQ2 and SWG at the same time and I see no reason to cancel SWG when it's only costing me $7 over my EQ2 subscription, and does provide social fun at times. I'm just stating, I gues, that I am profoundly disappointed and depressed at what is happening here. I'm hoping that someone out there can lift my spirits by saying it's not as bad as what I see.
Chessack
Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:56 am
#2
Pickles, as usual I think you are 90% right except for this part, which is somewhat correct... but incomplete. The statement in question:
You're partly right, we are not a priority. That's a numerical thing -- there are less ent profs in total, and way less people playing ents, so of course the devs will pay less attention to us in some regards. This is not unexpected or even uncalled-for in a way, but I don't think it is at the heart of what is really wrong.
The REAL problem, as I have been saying over and over, is that the devs do not currently understand, and have never understood, the mind-set of someone who wants to be an entertainer. In short, they don't have the first clue what makes us "tick." You can see this by the things they suggest or the stuff they try to put into the game that they view as "entertainer content" but ends up being a total wash-up. For all his other failings, I think Holocron (Raph Koster) did and probably still does understand us, but he's the only one, and he was never given the time to really get his vision of the entire game fully implemented before he moved on.
Holo/Raph understood the Bartle system and other MMORPG player research, and he understood what socializer players want/need out of a game. He missed one big boat -- AFKing -- but in fairness to him it is not clear he was in a position to rule against that in any case. He made a wonderful statement once. Quote, "When I hear of someone AFK macroing dancer I wince. People are playing a socializer's profession as an achiever." This statement reveals several things in a very short number of words: (1) at heart, Holocron did not approve of AFKing (it made him wince), (2) dancers were deliberately put into the game to appeal to the player type described as "socializers", and (3) he has a fundamental understanding of the mind-set of both socializer and achiever players.
Because Holo knew dancers' mind sets (and musicians') and because he understood the Bartle hypothesis and other MMORPG research on player types, Holocron would not have put some of the things into the game that have been "added" for us or subtracted others, I'm quite sure.
Let's look at my favorite example to pick on: the quests to get new dances or songs. These are not socializer quests. They are not arranged in the way a socialzier would want to do a quest, in general. They are achiever quests. The dancer is required to grind, not knowledge or heal XP this time, but instead, grind /watches from other players. I don't know a single entertainer -- not one -- who LIKES the system. Many of them did the grind because they wanted the dance or song, but they did not like the system. It forces you to actually ask someone who is already listening to your band, to specifially listen to you so that you "get credit" for it. This whole system completely misapprehends what entertainers are all about, and what most dedicated players of entertainers are looking for in a quest. They could multiply the # of patrons who have to watch/listen to you by an order of magnitude, if they changed it to "listen to the group I am in" rather than to me, alone. THAT might work OK, but not how they have it now. Why are these things different? Isn't one just as much a grind of the other? Well, no... because the group-based variety works in terms of a group, which means, in other words, a social entity and is much, much more likely to appeal to a SOCIALIZER.
The point here is that it isn't just "attention" we need from the devs. It's comprehension. The first thing the devs need to do, like a guy standing up at an AA meeting, is admit that there is a problem. Say the words, "OK, we admit it, we do not understand what entertainer players want at all, or why anyone would want to even BE an entertainer instead of a combat or craft type." This statement needs to be followed by, "Maybe we should ask some of them and find out."
This fundamental, basic item needs to be addressed, or nothing they do will EVER make the majority of dedicated entertainers happy. They so completely miss the boat on fundamentally comprehending what we are all "about" that they'll never get it right if they keep taking shots in the dark and doing things that amount to, "Well, if the types of players I do understand (combatants, crafters) were playing entertainers, THEY would've liked this!"
As long as we keep focusing on the amount of attention we get, and not the lack of understanding there is, they'll never get it right, and we'll keep feeling left out no matter what they do. Understanding must come FIRST, or all else is an exercise in futility.
C
I don't think it's the devs' intention to alienate our professions, but it's perfectly obvious to me that we're not, and never were, a priority. Perhaps that is the way it should be, as the majority of this game's players want combat and crafting, not social play.
You're partly right, we are not a priority. That's a numerical thing -- there are less ent profs in total, and way less people playing ents, so of course the devs will pay less attention to us in some regards. This is not unexpected or even uncalled-for in a way, but I don't think it is at the heart of what is really wrong.
The REAL problem, as I have been saying over and over, is that the devs do not currently understand, and have never understood, the mind-set of someone who wants to be an entertainer. In short, they don't have the first clue what makes us "tick." You can see this by the things they suggest or the stuff they try to put into the game that they view as "entertainer content" but ends up being a total wash-up. For all his other failings, I think Holocron (Raph Koster) did and probably still does understand us, but he's the only one, and he was never given the time to really get his vision of the entire game fully implemented before he moved on.
Holo/Raph understood the Bartle system and other MMORPG player research, and he understood what socializer players want/need out of a game. He missed one big boat -- AFKing -- but in fairness to him it is not clear he was in a position to rule against that in any case. He made a wonderful statement once. Quote, "When I hear of someone AFK macroing dancer I wince. People are playing a socializer's profession as an achiever." This statement reveals several things in a very short number of words: (1) at heart, Holocron did not approve of AFKing (it made him wince), (2) dancers were deliberately put into the game to appeal to the player type described as "socializers", and (3) he has a fundamental understanding of the mind-set of both socializer and achiever players.
Because Holo knew dancers' mind sets (and musicians') and because he understood the Bartle hypothesis and other MMORPG research on player types, Holocron would not have put some of the things into the game that have been "added" for us or subtracted others, I'm quite sure.
Let's look at my favorite example to pick on: the quests to get new dances or songs. These are not socializer quests. They are not arranged in the way a socialzier would want to do a quest, in general. They are achiever quests. The dancer is required to grind, not knowledge or heal XP this time, but instead, grind /watches from other players. I don't know a single entertainer -- not one -- who LIKES the system. Many of them did the grind because they wanted the dance or song, but they did not like the system. It forces you to actually ask someone who is already listening to your band, to specifially listen to you so that you "get credit" for it. This whole system completely misapprehends what entertainers are all about, and what most dedicated players of entertainers are looking for in a quest. They could multiply the # of patrons who have to watch/listen to you by an order of magnitude, if they changed it to "listen to the group I am in" rather than to me, alone. THAT might work OK, but not how they have it now. Why are these things different? Isn't one just as much a grind of the other? Well, no... because the group-based variety works in terms of a group, which means, in other words, a social entity and is much, much more likely to appeal to a SOCIALIZER.
The point here is that it isn't just "attention" we need from the devs. It's comprehension. The first thing the devs need to do, like a guy standing up at an AA meeting, is admit that there is a problem. Say the words, "OK, we admit it, we do not understand what entertainer players want at all, or why anyone would want to even BE an entertainer instead of a combat or craft type." This statement needs to be followed by, "Maybe we should ask some of them and find out."
This fundamental, basic item needs to be addressed, or nothing they do will EVER make the majority of dedicated entertainers happy. They so completely miss the boat on fundamentally comprehending what we are all "about" that they'll never get it right if they keep taking shots in the dark and doing things that amount to, "Well, if the types of players I do understand (combatants, crafters) were playing entertainers, THEY would've liked this!"
As long as we keep focusing on the amount of attention we get, and not the lack of understanding there is, they'll never get it right, and we'll keep feeling left out no matter what they do. Understanding must come FIRST, or all else is an exercise in futility.
C
Lynnaea
Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:05 pm
#3
Doesn't this just suck? I'm usally fairly cheerful and optimistic about the state of affairs as well, but these past few days have been rather depressing. As I was reading these posts, a quote popped into my head: "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark." I think that describes the whole game right now...
Warryyr
Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:07 pm
#4
Lynnaea wrote:
/agree
/wookieehug
Lynnaea
Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:09 pm
#5
Warryyr wrote:
Lynnaea wrote:
/agree
/wookieehug
/kitten hug
Thankie, I needed that. Things are not going well on Kauri.
KaiaClodgah
Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:14 pm
#6
the worst part about this to me is the whole trainwreak feeling. Like there are two trains, barrelling down the tracks towards each other and the switch is right in front of me but I can't figure out how to pull it, all I can do is watch while they crash. I love this game dearly, I love my friends, I love my professions. But love can only go so far. They are counting on addicition to the game makingveterans stay with the new system and the new system bringing in the new players. Exploitation of what everyone has always known, that MMORPGs are addicting.
But the worst part is their unwillingness to listen to their player base. This is found easily in any of the Dev chats or anytime that they say that the majority of players are thrilled with all the new changes CU will bring about. And this is where I feel helpless. Because I want to just take one of the head devs and shake them and pull them to a computer screen and show them the dancer boards or Corbantis boards or armorsmith boards and tell this this is your player base! It may not be ALL of your player base but it's a fine representation of it and they are NOT happy. And then they could tell me to go f*** myself or whatever, but at least at that point I could say I tried.
I'm generally an optimist, but I am also a realist. And the realist in me is screaming out that the CU will be the end of my beloved game. Maybe SWG2 will go on and be wonderfully successful (doubtful) but this game as we know it is dead effective May 5, 2005.
DoMakk
Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:52 pm
#7
picklesSW wrote:
We will not be able to wear armor and utilize weapons for dance routines. To some, this is a positive, as people who earn the ability to wear certain armors don't want everyone else getting that ability and that "cool look" for free. To pure entertainers, however, this cannot be looked at as anything but an ability taken away. We could wear and use certain items, may even own said items, and now we cannot. No way to spin that positively, it's removal of an ability.
What's free about it? You still have to buy, loot, or have said cool items given to you.
I can understand coming from WoW...you can't even equip such-and-such an item until you're of a level for it. But then...THEY DON'T HAVE ENTERTAINERS.
ChiiTWINS
Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:01 pm
#8
I don't think I can say anything that Dejah didn't already say for me. 
That was very well-put.
That was very well-put.
Ikewe
Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:25 pm
#9
It's interesting that you posted this Javier because I am in the complete opposite situation and I'm not certain why.. When I saw the first bits of information about the CU I had the instant belief that it was going to be a complete mess for non-combat profs. Perhaps because I have always thought that despite this being their creation the devs didn't seem to quite 'get' the intricate weaving together of professions. So I just assumed they'd be making changes to weapons and armor that would have a severe impact on crafters but who weren't really being included in the changes. I didn't hold out much hope at all with the "Entertainer Revamp" because I was convinced they saw all of us as just a bunch of people who wanted to dress up our characters and get together to talk. So I predicted that the "revamp" would be a series of new dances, songs, and props and nothing else. But for some reason, and I can't explain it at all, I'm no longer convinced that we're dead. I am convinced that after the CU many things are going to be completely frelled and I don't expect many fixes until the profession revamps. I was thoroughly disgusted when they made a complete 180 degree turn and said "oh about that afk thing... yeah we changed our minds and they're staying". But even that hasn't been enough to bring back my fears. Perhaps I've finally eaten just enough chocolate that I am permanently euphoric. I wish I could point to something definitive and say "this gives me hope and it should give you hope as well." But I can't. Maybe I've just finally completely lost my mind and I'm inventing hope where none exists simply because I know my account is paid up through next January. But I still have hope that things will get better. In fact I've been spending more and more time entertaining lately and less time in combat, and I've been having a lot of fun with it. It's the strangest sensation.
Panthu
Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:27 pm
#10
picklesSW wrote:
I'm hoping that someone out there can lift my spirits by saying it's not as bad as what I see.
Here's the deal... I don't know that this isn't going to suck for us for a while. I admitted in here way back that I am concerned for what this will mean for non-coms. We might be seeing some things that will make this game way more combat centric than it was when the non-combat profs were first envisioned. The sorry state of combat in this game has allowed (some) non-combat options (crafting)to really flourish and do some neat things in this virtual world.
Yet, we are Entertainers. We have lived through the holo craze. We have lived through the Bot take over. We will live through this. Things have been rough for us for a long time, this new change does not scare me any more than what we've already been through just because other non-coms are going to be affected this time.
I have a lot of nervousness about what these next few months will look like for us, but who knows, maybe it will end up helping us if we sharesome concerns with the almighty crafters who have always had a pull we could only dream about.
I just don't see any reason to give up now, not after everything we've been through as a community.
DanceRulez
Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:15 pm
#11
One of the things I keep in the back of my mind is that with all the dev attention on the combat game right now, it's certainly going to unbalance the other areas of the game - especially given the degree to which they are changing the combat system. There's only so much they can do at once so I try to give them some degree of leeway when considering the effects to the other game systems. With that in mind, though, it does then become their responsibility, once they're done with the combat systems, to start right away on going back and bringing the other areas of the game back into balance and not just leave them dangling in the breeze while they march off to new expansions or GCW revamp or whatever. I'll try to be understanding even if they do break some aspects of our profession such as Ent. Healing XP gain, or mind buff replacements or whatever else happens between now and when it's released, but I will be watching their following announcements carefully to make sure that they continue trying to bring the rest of the game back into balance with what they've done so far. That's about as much as we can expect, but if they won't do that, it will be very telling.
Drygo
Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:11 pm
#12
This whole thing has been a little surreal to me.
On one hand, I kind of agree with Panthu here. We've survived all of this crap for the last year and a half. This is nothing. This is merely status quo.
On the other hand, I have given up hope. And, yes, there's a mourning period here. But, for the most part, I feel kind of free. I have let go any notions of what I want this game to be, or what the original vision was. It's gone. Completely. Forever.
To be perfectly honest, I am actually more upset about the combat changes. Like I said, the entertainer stuff is status quo. But, the combat stuff...all of it, the levels, the groupings, the certifications (yeah, the last two also suck for the entertainer side of me too.)
I dunno. This game is just not what it used to be. And, I have serious doubts that I will ever get back to the level of enjoyment I once had. But, for now, with this weight of my shoulders called "hope" I am not so angry anymore, or even depressed. I'm just kinda numb. And, I'm just enjoying the game for what it is. And, basically I'm using this game as an MMORPG "filler" until something else comes out that strikes my fancy...like Star Trek Online, or Middle Earth Online...or basically anything else remotely creative, since SWG no longer is.
Akaara
Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:41 pm
#13
Drygo wrote:
basically I'm using this game as an MMORPG "filler" until something else comes out that strikes my fancy...like Star Trek Online, or Middle Earth Online...or basically anything else remotely creative, since SWG no longer is.
That is the same witrh me. I will probably continue to play SWG until D&D, Middle Earth or Star Trek comes out. The animation in SWG is so nice though, it's hard to play other games that look more cartoonish (to me anyways).
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