Dancer Archive
Thread: Making Payment a System Thing.
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PoetDancer
Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:05 pm
#1
This is the problem as I see it. We want to get paid. I'm not sure we care how we get paid, but we want to make sure our cantina activity is worth something. This currently means performing foran audiencein the hopes they may tip us. There are techniques to improve the odds, but it is always a random proposition. One thing for certain is that without an audience, there is NO chance of a tip.
And yet, an audience wants to see a show when they need to see it. They shouldn't have to wait at Dathomir Science Outpost hoping upon the chance that an entertainer could show. By the same token, we are reluctant to perform in a cantina hoping upon the chance that an audience will show. The thing that we share in common with our audience is that we both want to make the best use of our time. Our time in the cantina is best used when there is an audience there. The audience's best use of their cantina time is when a performer is there. But neither party has any incentive to "tough it out" and wait for one or the other to show.
Unattended entertainers only solve this problem because time is not important. It merely follows its programming. But it is this very programming that also makes it a most devious and expensive tool to dominate a cantina. A bot can wait it out far in excess of any live player. It can also manipulate who can and cannot utilize it. And it is for these reasons why bots are so unbalancing. They do not have to worry about making the best use of their online time like everyone else has to. They manipulate an entire environment without even being there towitness the manipulation. They can make the decision to serve or not to serve a player before that player even steps foot in the buffbot's cantina. And they will keeprunning their programmingday in and day out, no matter how much or how little they are used or tipped.
By the same token, I think its unfair to ask players--both audience and performer--to suffer through the current buffing system of /watches, /setperforms, /invites, the time/flo calculation, /stopwatch, and all the headache intrinsic in a system that, in principle, was designed to get us paid. It hasn't worked. Nor will it in a system where we have to somehow haggle and weigh costs and benefits of time just so all of us can get in and out of the cantinas with what we all want. No wonder buffbots are so loved. They give the audience the things they go to the cantina to get with as little headache as possible.
If you read enough of my posts, then you probably know that I see the current buffing protocols are the cause of our problems. I would be most happy if the "/" barrier was removed between a patron's /watch and a "/watch plus." But then again, how do we get paid?
That is why a lot of us are scared to get rid of our active buff protocols. If we aren't paid for issuing "/" commands, what can we be paid for and by whom?
According to the SWG Astromech Stats, the economy is running at a deficit. More money is going out of the system than generated by the system. It seems to me there is room for another system income input.
The solution I think may be as easy as drawing a salary. Make itso if one actively performs in the cantina, they get a small payment from the system. Make it happen every few minutes, or even longer or shorter. Make the salary increase upon skill level. Let the system do that which the playerbase is reluctant to do--grant a salary for being available. Perhaps scale it according to how many are /watching at a given time. Then, we won't need this cumbersome and unwieldy buff system anymore. /Watch will do, since we are being paid regardless. There will be reasons to play in empty cantinas on the chance that we will be needed, because we will be able to draw a salary regardless of who is there.
The point of this is not only to see if a salary system will work for us, but to help us think about alternative ways of approaching our problems. I am fine with the tip system. But a lot of other players here are not. I also think it is a mistake to promulgate the notion that we should be paid for "/" commands. Because if both we and our customers get into the mindset of believing that /setperform, /join, and /watch are the things we are tipped for, then your 3 hour stint at Endor means nothing if nobody happened to walk in the door.
But this is clearly wrong. Your 3 hour stint at Endor does mean something, just like a player cantina buffbot's lonely 15 hour stint from 7AM to 9PMmeans something. It means that players did not have to worry about getting their needs tended to for those 3 hours on Endor. If that peace of mind isn't worth something, then why do we have unattended alts who are not used for far more minutes each daythan they are actually used?
So I guess my question is this:If you were paid a good amount by the systemto be available to players for free, would you feel that this would be an affront to what we do? If you were paid a decent amount from the system to go to an empty cantina and perform, would you do it on the chance you could be needed? If you got paid a fixed amount for being available, would you consider dropping /setperform and the group buff?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 09-03-2004 08:02 PM
Luciee_Depri
Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:25 pm
#2
Very interesting concept and I like it in theory. The one thing that it does not promise is social interaction. I may be an exception because I don't dance for credits (which is not to say I dance for free, either...I sadly do not expect to make a living dancing). The reason I don't go dance in Nashal, Talus, is because it is boring and there is no one else there to interact with. So, I wouldn't go there to dance even if you paid me. I'd be in Theed or Coronet or my player city, because that is where people pass through and expect to find doctors and entertainers and where I'd find some social interaction.
It also doesn't address the old "I don't play prime time hours" issue. There will still be complaints that you cannot get healed at 3am EST on a Tuesday. That you can't find a doctor or a slicer or a droid engineer at that hour either doesn't seem to matter. There is no solution for this issue other than the character transfer service that would move those players to a server better populated during their play schedule.
But, if this were a mission I took from a terminal that paid enough to cover my travel expenses AND a little extra that would be cool and I might go. What would be even better is if the entertainer terminal would check for a population in need of an entertainer and my mission would be to go where those players are. BH terminals check for visibility of a jedi and so maybe something along those lines could be used for entertainer missions to "sense" mind wounds and battle fatigue. Or, a player could go to an entertainer terminal, enter in the price one was willing to pay to have an entertainer come to his location, pay the credits, then the mission would be given to an entertainer selecting missions. If no entertainer took the mission after 10 minutes, the player in need would be given the option to up the payout or receive a refund.
Or, if a player needed to pay a fee to enter the cantina (maybe entertainers would get a discount card or a union card that granted them free access 
) thus allowing them access to the entertainers and healing/buffing. The entertainers there would get a percentage of the income and might spread out more in an effort to make more money by being where fewer entertainers are and more players need to be healed (like Dathomir or Endor). We might then need to approach how we level differently since currently we rely on the biggest group we can find. Plus, I'd rather the players provide the credits; the reason we are paid so poorly/inconsistently is because one does not have to pay us now, thus indicating our time and efforts have no value.
) thus allowing them access to the entertainers and healing/buffing. The entertainers there would get a percentage of the income and might spread out more in an effort to make more money by being where fewer entertainers are and more players need to be healed (like Dathomir or Endor). We might then need to approach how we level differently since currently we rely on the biggest group we can find. Plus, I'd rather the players provide the credits; the reason we are paid so poorly/inconsistently is because one does not have to pay us now, thus indicating our time and efforts have no value.I think the cause of our problems are not our buffs but that we heal passively. That it takes us some time to heal and we can only do so in limited locations has also caused us to be resented.
What I will never understand is why we are not viewed more the way doctors or slicersare viewed. If you oftenneed items sliced, you do asearch for a slicer, do your business with him, add him to your friends list, then go towhere he is when you need more slicing. If you need a buff or heals, you call on your friend the doctor who you added to your friends list long ago and you pay him well forhis services (well, forbuffs at least 
). No one seems to expect the slicer to be in Nashal, Talus, waiting forone to need a slice andno one berates him or decides not to pay him just because one had to go to him for his services. Again, I think it isbecause payment is not necessary but based on the generosity, mood, and sense of fair play of others.
). No one seems to expect the slicer to be in Nashal, Talus, waiting forone to need a slice andno one berates him or decides not to pay him just because one had to go to him for his services. Again, I think it isbecause payment is not necessary but based on the generosity, mood, and sense of fair play of others. I also don't see any way to end the buff bot/hostage to the Theed Cantina seige unless SOE takes a stance on unattended game play. Until SOE says that if you play unattended, you risk your account if reported and unresponsive to theCSR that visits you, unattended play will still be far too prevelant. Whether you are in favor of unattended play or against it, the majority of people will not risk their accounts. Some will but those are probably the same ones that will use 3rd party programs or any other means to not play at the keys.
Please don't take this post as a critism of your very good idea. Use it as a springboard for other ideas that will hone your idea into something even better. Maybe a red name will actually take a look at some of the incredible ideas I've seen this community generate and it will cause some glaring light to go on and the red name will take the bits and pieces of a few of them and make them into a systemthat we can, not only live with, but enjoy thoroughly!
PoetDancer
Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:31 pm
#3
Thank you for your words. I think the reason that players do not treat us like doctors or smugglers is that the roles and responsibilities are not clear. We do not heal, we do not buff. We skill animate so that people may buff or heal themselves by /watching us. That is the passive aspect you explain so well.
But I do not think this passivity is a weakness to our profession. I think it is our greatest strength. Too much activity on our part distracts us from being amusing, which in my opinion is what entertainment is all about. Passivity also has the potential to make us very effective. A doctor can only heal one person at one time. We can heal an unlimited number of people at one time.
Buffs are a special case. We cannot buff unless the patron /watches. This is why buffs are passive. Yet a patron cannot just start /watching and get the buff. Certain protocols and procedures have to take place in a certain sequence for a certain amount of time. This is what gives it some semblance of active authorization on our part. This virtual "tap dance" between patron and performer is also the cause of numerous headaches between the two parties, and forces both to worry about "getting it right" rather than relaxing and having fun.
That is why I think the current buffing rules have to go. But then, how can we be assured we will get paid? More importantly, how can we give players an incentive to play in an empty cantina to be available on the off chance that they will be needed? Like you said, boredom is an issue. Couple this with the fact that we only get paid if we have an audience to see us pretty much assures that one will only find entertainers at the well traveled venues.
Our audience doesn't want this though. They want performers evenly distributed everywhere, because they often go to out of the way locales. And I don't blame them for wanting that. I think we want it too. But how can we make it worth our while? That is the challenge.
Reachwind
Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:09 pm
#4
This is a great idea but it has one fatal flaw....
Any passive system where a player can earn income simply by having a character running a routine without penalty of any kind (our current entertainer system) will be exploited by those who have no interest in the profession but will uase it as an easy way to generate money. In other words.... Everyone with two accounts will setup a dancer to farm money for their combat character nonstop. It would be far too easy for those people.... To fight that the devs would cap the income to a level that a casual player still would not have any interest in playing it in this manner.
It's still not a bad idea it just needs to be combined with a system where interaction with the character is required and have a reward for people that go above and beyond just regular game mechanics.
PoetDancer
Fri Sep 03, 2004 9:02 pm
#5
Well granted I do believe that unattendedness has to be eliminated. I think this is primary to getting anything done in these professions. From what I can see as far as development on this issue, it is coming to a close.
Luciee_Depri
Fri Sep 03, 2004 9:06 pm
#6
PoetDancer wrote:
Thank you for your words. I think the reason that players do not treat us like doctors or smugglers is that the roles and responsibilities are not clear. We do not heal, we do not buff. We skill animate so that people may buff or heal themselves by /watching us. That is the passive aspect you explain so well.
But I do not think this passivity is a weakness to our profession. I think it is our greatest strength. Too much activity on our part distracts us from being amusing, which in my opinion is what entertainment is all about. Passivity also has the potential to make us very effective. A doctor can only heal one person at one time. We can heal an unlimited number of people at one time.
Buffs are a special case. We cannot buff unless the patron /watches. This is why buffs are passive. Yet a patron cannot just start /watching and get the buff. Certain protocols and procedures have to take place in a certain sequence for a certain amount of time. This is what gives it some semblance of active authorization on our part. This virtual "tap dance" between patron and performer is also the cause of numerous headaches between the two parties, and forces both to worry about "getting it right" rather than relaxing and having fun.
That is why I think the current buffing rules have to go. But then, how can we be assured we will get paid? More importantly, how can we give players an incentive to play in an empty cantina to be available on the off chance that they will be needed? Like you said, boredom is an issue. Couple this with the fact that we only get paid if we have an audience to see us pretty much assures that one will only find entertainers at the well traveled venues.
Our audience doesn't want this though. They want performers evenly distributed everywhere, because they often go to out of the way locales. And I don't blame them for wanting that. I think we want it too. But how can we make it worth our while? That is the challenge.
Excellent points! I think it would be fun if we had quests that encouraged us to mentor novices, to group up and travel together and paid us well for the effort. If those quests could send us where players need us, all the better. I also wish our buffing system was less cumbersome and iffy, less dependent on so many factors we do not control. I also dislike that I am unable to put on a good show if I am to give a good, timely buff. Buffing does feel like work to me, because I do have to pay strict attention to my buffee and be sure I do everything just right. I feel frustrated when I hear a patron say, "I didn't get the buff", even if it's not my patron!
I still think mission terminals and quests are our best hopes for making money, just as they are for combat professions. If the mission terminal on Dathomir paid well, there were people there to keep you amused, and you could do some healing at the same time, that would be ideal for us and for those who need our capabilities. Mission terminals are already in the game so some tweaking would do the trick. It certainly couldn't make things any worse! Then we would not have to rely on the generosity of other players and the "system" would provide for us as it does for combat players. Now, if we could get other professions to urge the devs to increase our mission payouts, especially for out of the way locations, that just might work. (okay, I'm not really that much of an optimist but we have enough negativity in these parts without me adding to it!)
bn-ny
Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:54 am
#7
the thought of adding a reliablepayment system other than the current tipping(or lack of), bad paying missions, and hopefully getting a payment for buffing would be wonderful. personaly i agree that unless the afk problems arnt addressed then there is no way that a salary for being in a cantina for a period of time would work without it being exploited,
What they do at least need to work on is the payment from the mission terminials. It should have a higher payout with your skill same with combat terminals. I guess the problem with that is how they would identify how skilled you are. I shouldnt be getting paid the same as a master as when i was a novice.
if they could actually get it right, i think the bh style missions would give some zest to the system and would cater to the need of entertainers in remote places.Having them only accessable by novice dancer/musician and up.
Kyorlana
Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:39 am
#8
I can't remember who it was now... but if you cast your mind back right to the start of live, there was an excellent suggestion that there be a cantina manager in NPC city cantinas who you could clock on and clock off with for your performance.
They would pay you a rate depending upon your performance abilities. This could also be tied in with the fame rating and other systems. e.g.
- They would be the contact who could direct you to other gigs in other cantinas in their 'chain' and specify what is needed.
- If you need training you could register the request with them so it becomes a mission for someone else to complete,
- If you clock on you are registered in the cantina without having to type the command, likewise for clocking off unregistering. This could be combined with some form of advertising names of certain fame ratings outside the cantina perhaps?
There is quite a lot of scope to improve the profession as it stands by having a cantina manager / agent in place. I for one support the idea and am glad the issue has been brought to the fore again
They would pay you a rate depending upon your performance abilities. This could also be tied in with the fame rating and other systems. e.g.
- They would be the contact who could direct you to other gigs in other cantinas in their 'chain' and specify what is needed.
- If you need training you could register the request with them so it becomes a mission for someone else to complete,
- If you clock on you are registered in the cantina without having to type the command, likewise for clocking off unregistering. This could be combined with some form of advertising names of certain fame ratings outside the cantina perhaps?
There is quite a lot of scope to improve the profession as it stands by having a cantina manager / agent in place. I for one support the idea and am glad the issue has been brought to the fore again
PoetDancer
Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:08 am
#9
Now comes the difficult question. Would we be willing to drop the gated buff protocols if we relied on the system to pay us, and not the patrons directly? In other words, make it so all a patron need do is /watch to get a buff, without the need to do /setperform or /join? To me, this is the crucial step to make buffs more available and less subject to error.
Groovymarlin
Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:25 am
#10
PoetDancer wrote:
Now comes the difficult question. Would we be willing to drop the gated buff protocols if we relied on the system to pay us, and not the patrons directly? In other words, make it so all a patron need do is /watch to get a buff, without the need to do /setperform or /join? To me, this is the crucial step to make buffs more available and less subject to error.
I don't think the devs will ever do that. Why? Because buffs are not just OUR concern, they are also the concern of the combatants that receive them. They provide a clear advantage to a combatant, and making them available simply by just watching or listening to an entertainer, with no specific effort on the entertainer's part (to setperform or groupandflourish the appropriate number of times) would be unbalanced. This is the thing - mind/focus/willpower buffs HAVE to be somewhat difficult to obtain. Not impossible, but they MUST require some effort, or else they would completely unbalance the game.
If we want to give up mind/focus/willpower buffing as an active or "gated" process as you put it, then the devs will take it away from us and give it to doctors, who will have to use resources to produce the buffs just like all the other buffs that they now have.
I personally would not like that at all. The cantina would have to pay me a hell of a salary to make up for the money I can make giving mind buffs, and I don't see that happening either. I don't think they need to take our buffs away or really even change the process for receiving them. I think they need to:
- Make our buffs last three hours or equivalent to doctor buffs
- GIve us a buffing interface that makes the application of the buff less vulnerable to error and also clearly shows when the buff is applied (especially for musicians, who have no way to see this now)
- Provide a payment interface for those who feel they need it, but make it optional for those who don't
- Explore other types of buffs that we could give, similar to many of the new chef foods (bonus to dodge, knockdown resistance, chance of crafting success, etc.)
Doriana
Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:50 am
#11
This is a good idea at the core but.. I think it's too early, really. The first thing I thought when I read it is "Pay people even more to AFK? 1mil a day for running a bot isn't enough? That won't help anything."
I think with pay and avialbility and distribution of entertainers we just need to wait right now and see 1)If the new macro system does "clean up" AFK and 2) What happens after the AFK is cleaned up.
Even now, when only half my patrons or so tip me, I can make 200k - 300k or more for a few hours of work in a player city cantina but ONLY when there are no bots online. Otherwise, yeah, I may end up with only 10k - 25k for my time because no one bothers to even come to the cantina. For me the only limit to how reliable my income is is if the local "buff house" has an entertainer bot (or three or four? /sigh) in it or not.
I think if it was known that I was drawing a "salary" very few people would tip me no matter how entertaining I may be. I also doubt that this salary would be anywhere near the 100k+/hour I can make in a bot-free environment.
The money is out there. The problem is that live entertainers aren't getting it because people would much rather deal with a machine that has no need for things like respect and courtesy than the "hassle" of a real person. I honestly believe that live buffers are infinitely less of a hassle than bots... haven't we all snickered to ourselves at the people who are shunning our live buffs for a bot and then having an aneurysm because they can't get an invite to the bot group, or the bot disbanded and someone else invited, or the bot isn't starting to dance fast enough or is out of action or is just "broken" but can't refund that tip.... I think THAT's the hassle, not watching me for 3 and half minutes while I type /setperform, and the live hassle could be addressed simply by allowing multiple /setperfs that last until the watcher goes out of watching range.
I guess I feel like without bots in the equation I can do better with my own achievments in a tip based system than a system that pays me the same flat rate as everyone. Without tips where is the incentive for us to provide good customer service? If we get paid regardless of how well we provide service it is exactly the same as a buffbot patron getting a buff regardless of how they treat the buffer.
Either way, once we rebuild respect for the profession I think reliable tips will follow. I used to make quite nice tips in adventure planet cantinas and would average a lot more income there than in a core world cantina even though I only had maybe 10% of the patrons. So right now I'm just waiting in limbo to see what happens, to see if SOE does take out the trash and clean up AFKing, and how it pans out, before I call for more changes.
I think with pay and avialbility and distribution of entertainers we just need to wait right now and see 1)If the new macro system does "clean up" AFK and 2) What happens after the AFK is cleaned up.
Even now, when only half my patrons or so tip me, I can make 200k - 300k or more for a few hours of work in a player city cantina but ONLY when there are no bots online. Otherwise, yeah, I may end up with only 10k - 25k for my time because no one bothers to even come to the cantina. For me the only limit to how reliable my income is is if the local "buff house" has an entertainer bot (or three or four? /sigh) in it or not.
I think if it was known that I was drawing a "salary" very few people would tip me no matter how entertaining I may be. I also doubt that this salary would be anywhere near the 100k+/hour I can make in a bot-free environment.
The money is out there. The problem is that live entertainers aren't getting it because people would much rather deal with a machine that has no need for things like respect and courtesy than the "hassle" of a real person. I honestly believe that live buffers are infinitely less of a hassle than bots... haven't we all snickered to ourselves at the people who are shunning our live buffs for a bot and then having an aneurysm because they can't get an invite to the bot group, or the bot disbanded and someone else invited, or the bot isn't starting to dance fast enough or is out of action or is just "broken" but can't refund that tip.... I think THAT's the hassle, not watching me for 3 and half minutes while I type /setperform, and the live hassle could be addressed simply by allowing multiple /setperfs that last until the watcher goes out of watching range.
I guess I feel like without bots in the equation I can do better with my own achievments in a tip based system than a system that pays me the same flat rate as everyone. Without tips where is the incentive for us to provide good customer service? If we get paid regardless of how well we provide service it is exactly the same as a buffbot patron getting a buff regardless of how they treat the buffer.
Either way, once we rebuild respect for the profession I think reliable tips will follow. I used to make quite nice tips in adventure planet cantinas and would average a lot more income there than in a core world cantina even though I only had maybe 10% of the patrons. So right now I'm just waiting in limbo to see what happens, to see if SOE does take out the trash and clean up AFKing, and how it pans out, before I call for more changes.
Doriana
Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:53 am
#12
Oh yes....
Also, wouldn't removing /setperform and/or grouping make "monitored bots" (i.e. a person with 2 accounts on two computers who doesn't play but just pushes the bot's macro button once every hour) just that much easier to run, therefore putting us back into the sea of moni-bots insitead of completely bots?
Also, wouldn't removing /setperform and/or grouping make "monitored bots" (i.e. a person with 2 accounts on two computers who doesn't play but just pushes the bot's macro button once every hour) just that much easier to run, therefore putting us back into the sea of moni-bots insitead of completely bots?
Message Edited by Doriana on 09-04-2004 10:54 AM
Electro
Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:53 am
#13
Personally I don't want payment to be a system thing that "just happens." However, I do think that mission terminals should provide missions that help entertainers spread out and actually make an income. For example, suppose I walk up to the Entertainer Terminal in Coronet as a Master Dancer, here is a sample of the missions I'd like to see:
1. Perform in Coronet Cantina for 30 minutes - 250 credits
2. Perform in Tyrena Cantina for 30 minutes - 2000 credits (note travel costs are included in the payout, as is a bonus for going to an underused location
3. Perform in Dearic Cantina for 30 minutes - 5000 credits (again travel costs are covered and alarger bonus for going to somewhere used hardly at all)
4. Perform in Science Outpost Dathomir for 30 minutes - 20000 credits
The numbers are made up... but the key is this: they should cover travel costs and incentivize players to spread out. The payouts ideally should fluctuate based on the number of entertainers in a location. If there are 20 people already in the Science Outpost on Dathomir the payout should barely cover travel costs, etc.
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