Dancer Archive

Here's the Entertainer related highlights from the patch notes:

While it is listed for crafters we could also benefit from:

Please note; Scouts and Rangers are opposed to camo kits being used by everyone. Availability may be very limited.

Once again, it seems the covercharge is just a small piece of a puzzle that we've not been shown the intention of. It is up to us whether or not we utilize it. I'm very interested to see the affect this has on entertainers.

Due to lack of testing time and guinea pigs, I've no information for what additional xp types might be affected by inspirations now. We'll just gather the info as we can.

Message Edited by Esharra on 05-26-2005 12:10 PM

Some notes:

I suspect the "other types of xp" part of the patch notes may be retro rather than something new.

I'll be adding info about covercharge to the FAQ tomorrow (thankfully a day off from work for me).

I'm looking forward to doing the entertainer part of the new starter quests.

(mhm..yeah..this space reserved)

---

Esharra wrote:

Some notes:

I suspect the "other types of xp" part of the patch notes may be retro rather than something new.

I'll be adding info about covercharge to the FAQ tomorrow (thankfully a day off from work for me).

I'm looking forward to doing the entertainer part of the new starter quests.

(mhm..yeah..this space reserved)

---

Message Edited by Warryyr on 05-26-2005 01:04 PM

Fair enough.

I'm just worried about how this new feature will reflect on Entertainers. I don't think it gives the right impression at all, no matter who uses it. You're right, if I don't like it, I don't have to use it. And I won't. I just don't feel right hitting somebody up with a bill before they even know how entertaining I'm going to be. It seems like an odd way tostart an interaction, is all.

I dunno. Not very Entertainer-like from my perspective.

---

Warryyr wrote:

Fair enough.

I'm just worried about how this new feature will reflect on Entertainers. I don't think it gives the right impression at all, no matter who uses it. You're right, if I don't like it, I don't have to use it. And I won't. I just don't feel right hitting somebody up with a bill before they even know how entertaining I'm going to be. It seems like an odd way to start an interaction, is all.

I dunno. Not very Entertainer-like from my perspective.

---

What if you think about it this way. Let's just say you set a low to moderate cover - say 500 or 1000 credits. If someone comes to you and pays that, then at the very least they can expect to get buffed or healed, and *that* they will get (unless you're some unscrupulous type that would stop performing as soon as you figured out someone paid your covercharge, but I won't worry about that). Now if you happen to be very entertaining on top of that, greeting the customer, joking around with him/her, playing requests, providing some useful info, whatever, then the customer is getting the added bonus of being truly entertained while receiving the base game mechanics. There is nothing stopping the customer from giving you a tip in addition to the cover for the enhanced experience, and in fact, a good customer would do just that. As a Tailor I've had that happen frequently. I quote a price to someone for, say, 5000 credits up front for one or more items and receive maybe 20000 credits in payment on delivery. It's a business model that already exists, does work sometimes (i.e. not everyone will pay more than asked, but good customers often do), and people are used to. It's just one that so far has not been workable with Entertainers. This new feature alone won't fix it either, but it is a step in that direction, and if AFK is minimized or eliminated, it could be a useful feature. Then again, if it doesn't work out, no one has to use it, and no harm done.

Now if you were to ask me if this was a pressing enough feature that should be addressed now rather than later, then I would say later would be better and that something more important should be addressed now. I don't set the dev's priorities though, and I have no idea who does or how they select them, so we just have to deal with what we're given as we're given it.

I have to disagree with this not being entertainer like.

When was the last time you paid after going to a movie? After going to a show? After attending a play? After a concert? Professional entertainers get paid up front.

The system doesn't pay out/debit until the customer gets a full buff, so they get exactly what they have paid for.

The system (ok haven't gone in game yet, but I am assuming it works (crosses fingers)) seems like just the right fix?

Much as I hate negativity and all...

/covercharge isn't really going to help very much in the public cantinas, unless you're the only one in there. When your box for the covercharge pops up, the customer will click 'no' and try someone else. I would suggest that anyone who needs healing xp might not want to use this feature. People clicking around to find a free performer might find you and you'd get their healing xp.

Perhaps if everyone in the cantina got together and set a small, but reasonable covercharge, this might work.

I think I'll stick to the old way of talking to the customer for my tips. And if that doesn't work, I have ID and my shiny, new carbine to fall back on.

---

Warryyr wrote:

Whatever comes of it - it doesn't matter. The concept is "pay before you get services, before you even know if it's worth the money." Few people feel comfortable with that way to pay for services. All you Ents who've been around for awhile - you tell me - when did people usually pay for buffs? Before you started to give 'em the buff, or after they got it and knew they had it?

---

I'm not sure I quite understand your objection here, Warr. For one thing, the old buff lines out in front of the starport that so many people were fond of were usually pay first. Most of those doctors had some message going about please tip X credits when it's your turn before the buff begins. Then, of course there were, and still are, the buff houses where you have to pay admission before you can go in. I'd say many people are pretty used to this.

As far as the customer being able to sample the style before paying, well the styles in this game are rather limited, and I doubt that anyone who needs a BF healing or a buff is really thinking, "Man, I've really gotta find someone playing Funk.". Of course dancers have the advantage of being able to be seen before a /watch command could be applied that musicians just don't have because they can't be heard before a /listen command is used, but I don't think there would be too many complaints if someone paid to /listen in for BF healing or a buff and all they got was SW1.

What I think is the beauty of this new feature, like /denyservice before it, is that if you don't like it, you don't have to use it. I don't think there's much reason to get upset at a new feature that's introduced if you can simply choose to use it or not as long as it doesn't lead to exploitation. I, for one, will probably choose to use it any time I dance in a public cantina. Not because I expect it to earn me a lot of credits, but at the very least to show patrons that I think my services are worth compensation. I tend to get annoyed by those that run in, get a heal or buff off you, then run out without a single word, thank you, or tip. I'll feel better if nothing else knowing that they won't be able to do that to me anymore. If someone next to me chooses not to use it, that's their prerogative, but it won't bother me. I imagine that anyone trying to earn XP will probably choose not to use it simply to minimize any barrier between themselves and any potential source of XP gain. That's what I think about it anyway.

---

RockMeGently wrote:

I agree with Warryyr, this is annoying and entertainers shouldn't have to become beggers to make a living. If people are determined that someone should be able to make relatively equal income to a combat character (I don't believe this but whatever) then I think the credits should be made by doing missions or quests or something active instead of passive.

Why I don't like this...

It gives AFK'ers and Buffbots another way to make money without actually being there. And the last thing I want is another huge infusion of buffbots and afker's

So why then doesn't the live entertainer just not have a covercharge and dance next to the buffbots/afker's?

Well, because then the expectation is that because they aren't charging that it's free. And if it's free that means no tipping.

Why it's ok...

On the other hand, I guess because everyone from novice up can do it, it's fairly balanced in that everyone has the opportunity to do or not do it.

---

Exactamundo.

"Free" might prevent folks from tipping, then. Whichmeans you set a cover charge, which again I think is an awkward way to start an entertainment interaction. Then someone else sees you set a cover charge, so they don't, and somebody gets a "free" buff and heal from them.

I just think the entire function is problematic and awkward, and I fear we'll start to see cover charge wars and animosity towards us for those who abuse it.

---

CandiDance wrote:

I have to disagree with this not being entertainer like.

When was the last time you paid after going to a movie?

We're talking about a live act here, not a movie. There's a difference.

After going to a show? After attending a play?

When was the last time you walked into a play, and the actors stood there acting, but you couldn't enjoy the show (let's say you can't hear the dialogue)until you personally slipped a $20 bill into each actor's pockets?

After a concert? Professional entertainers get paid up front.

When was the last time you walked into a concert and the band was playing away furiously, but unless you walked up to them and put money in their pockets, you couldn't listen to them or watch the dancers dance?

You see, the money handlers are removed from the entertainers. When I go see a Dave Matthews Band concert, I don't mail a check to Dave Matthews. I use Ticketmaster. THEY arrange for appropriate compensation to DMB. When I go to the concert, I don't walk right in and walk up to Dave while he's playing, and put money in his pocket - and unless I do so, I can't hear him playing music.

I've gone into bars with a piano player playing (the closest comparison in my mind to the Entertainer concept in SWG). They have a tip jar. I hear a couple ofgood songs, I walk up between songs and put some cash in the tip jar, maybe request a tune, maybe give 'em a compliment or two, ask 'em how things are going.

If I walk into a bar and a live band is performing, the bouncer charges me a cover charge. This is split between the house and the band - anddepending on how many people show up, the payout to the band changes.

If this concept of a cover charge were applied correctly, the /tip for an Entertainer would still be viable - after the performance or during the performance, based on how entertaining it was. It would be a bonus on top of what the Entertainer would be paid by the cover charge. The cover charge would be an amount paid to each entertainer in a cantina who is currently skill animating and not AFK. When someone enters a cantina, they pay a cover charge, or they don't come in. This mechanic is already in the game, known as a Entry Fee on merchant's shops. Someone in a group can pay for all in their group (in case a newbie can't afford the cover charge, a vet could group up with them and pay their cover). Sort of a "come on, pal - i'll get ya in" kind of thing.

Here's the thing....

The cover charge paid to get into the cantina would be 100 credits per person (obviously I'm no Dev, it'd be up to them to decide how much to charge, and pay Entertainers).

The Entertainer getsa multiplier towardsthat amount (1000 credits per patron in a busy cantina, for example). This amount would havea multiplier, based on people per minute...the lower the people per minute, the higher the payout to the Entertainer from the cover charge (higher multiplier). This would encourage people to play in the lower traffic areas, until they become high traffic, in which case more Entertainers show up there, and others seek a more secluded place for higher payouts. There are too many empty cantinas in the galaxies, and too many players going to these and saying, "I can't find any Entertainers, or I never see them anywhere." Anything to spread Ents out in more remote areas and encourage cantina playing is a good thing.

The patron is inclined to tip an amount based upon the performance they receive, as they only paid 100 credits to get in the door in the first place. The patron gets a 2 day "cover charge free" priviledge to enter the cantina and get some entertainment (prevents exploiting for free credits countless times, and so on).

The system doesn't pay out/debit until the customer gets a full buff, so they get exactly what they have paid for.

Unless the Entertainer stops playing. As Red-Dwarf said, this could be exploitable. And very well may change the perception of any Entertainer using /covercharge to be a possible thief, among those who've been scammed.

The system (ok haven't gone in game yet, but I am assuming it works (crosses fingers)) seems like just the right fix?

It's a decent idea that needs expanding upon, in my opinion. It seems like an awkward thing to me, to have people paying a cover charge directly to me - I work for tips, I don't collect money and then put on a show. I entertain and THEN get rewarded for my efforts. I think the /covercharge idea, the way it currently is, is frought with problematic logic and potential disaster. But I'm probably just blowing it out of proportion. I hope the concerns I have never come to fruition. I think there's a lot better way to use this concept to help Entertainers, rather than provide another opportunity to hurt Entertainers.

---

---

Red-Dwarf wrote:

The customer pays up front as soon as they accept the charge. The performer only receives the cash once the person stops watching/listening or walks out of range (in between the server holds the cash).

This can lead to griefing - player pays charge, then receives a /denyservice shot and only gets a fraction of a buff but still pays full charge, or even just the performer after knowing he will get paid as the players have paid the charge stops performing.

---

I don't see this as being a big problem. Back when we had mind buffs, the few times I could actually sell one I always asked for money up front, usually 5k, and I rarely had anyone suddenly back out because they didn't want to pay before getting a service. I could easily have taken the money and run if I had wanted to, but I don't think too many people were worried about that. I don't think any established musicians or dancers will exploit this. The only way I really see a problem is with smart-alecs who might try taking up Novice Ent just to see if they can get away with something like this. Even then, I doubt they'd be able to get people to pay them much of a cover charge for only Novice Ent level skills, and it's not like they're going to make the effort to grind up to Novice Dancer/Musician or higher just to try to trick people. Besides, it will probably still be very easy for people to find someone performing for free or cheap so I don't even think you could make much to even make it worthwhile trying to scam anyone unless you just wanted to tick someone off. While there certainly is the potential for someone to exploit it or use it for griefing, I just don't see that there's much to be actually concerned with or much damage that could actually be done by it. You could just as easily have some Weaponsmith demand one million credits up front to make some uber weapon and then never deliver it, but no one seems to worry about that or it damaging the reputation of other Weaponsmiths.