CUEmu - Thread Posts

Chali_starsider

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:53 am

Hello all,

I am starting this discussion supposing entertainers professions will be kept in their current state, notably no new game benefits to provide to the playerbase.
I began to think about that when Esharra brought again the discussion about SP reduction, letting me believe where our profession is heading.
in another discussion, Panthu underlined the fact socializing should be allowed to everyone.
And as Shardour stated recently "I'd love for our game to be content-centered, and not quite so service-centered. It would just make things more...fun."
So let's work on that !

I'm trying to summarize (and somewhat repeat) my ideas here :

Entertainers have two aspects :
- providing game-mechanic services (healing BF, inspiration)
- providing a social service (no pure game benefit at all, just enjoyment)

If the first aspect is going to freeze, the second can be expanded.
Considering socialization itself has no ties to game mechanics, adding more options is like adding goodies to the professions.

The second aspect is specific to entertainers, asny other ability in game provide a game benefit, as little as it can be, even if underused, overlooked.

We may all have seen people tiping us either because of the game benefits (healing BF or inspiration), either just because they enjoyed the performance, or simply because of both.

Breaking the exclusivity of "social" skills

Currently, the only game abilities generally defined as "social" are from entertainers professions (dance, music, image design).
Add game emotes and moods, already common to everyone.

If we want to improve the game experience for everyone, each character must be able to do some social things without being restrained by his career choices (and SP costs).

Creating a common social pool of abilities

A social abilities pool could be created : common to everyone, not depending from SP costs and totally out of the game system managing professions. Like emotes, moods already are.

The first possibility could be to fill that pool by copying basic abilities, from Novice Skill boxes.
Still, to the example of dancing, it will only provide a single base dance. But it could be a beginning.

The dance, coming from the social pool and not the entertainer profession, will not give any form of dance XP (because people probably won't like to see Dance XP gain spamming, because indeed they don't care).

The number of dances, flourishes, available by copying the dance line of entertainers is matter of debate.

How far someone should be able to dance without being forced to truly enter the entertainer profession ? (then Dancer).

The whole dances from the basic entertainer profession ? Less ? More, even up to some, or all, Dancer dances ?

It would allow players interested into sosialization to be allowed to do more than the /dance emote, possibly promoting interaction, parties etc...

Make entertainers specialists of entertaining

IRL, noone is able to dance like a professionnal dancer is they didn't practice like a professionnal dancer. Dance knowledge, coordination, endurance, experience... are all.

So, keeping some (most ?) dances exclusive to dancer will make professionnal dancers still wished because of thei talent (the dance animations, something independant from your abilitiy to be a good performer).

Some player made the choice to invest SP into dancing, made the choice to practice and accumulate dancing XP (so hours of dancing), he or she deserves and edge, because it's what happen IRL, because SWG is still a game and choices are made for everything else.

Expanding the common pool contents

Here, I only spoke about dancing.

However, I believe many more things could be added to that common pool. As long as the common pool provides no game benefit at all, it won't unbalance the system, won't lower the value of each profession contributing to the pool by copying its abilities to it.

Ideas :
- adding some haircutting capacity, lekku positions, etc to the common pool (like the serie you can choose from at creation)
- adding a couple of songs
- adding schematics to create totally useless items used to decorate (basic items like plates, filled glasses etc... something anyone could do by cooking)
- adding totally useless props one could carry
- giving the ability to throw /bandflourishes to dancers, which will include non-entertainers of the group performing common pool dances. So a dancer could create coordinated dances where a single individual couldn't. Just eye candy here.

(here, to contribute to the common pool, each profession should understand it has to share something. Sharing basics shouldn't be too tough, I believe. Problems will come if we speak about sharing entirely what defines a profession)

[ the best, of course, and to me, would be to have new options for us all.
I wouldn't mind personnaly to see the entire dances from entertainer tree (or even dancer) were handed to everyone if new dances, better, were coded to replace them.
As yes, sorry, but I believe someone dedicating to a profession should be slightly better at dancing than everyone else. But it's just my opinion, I could live with a larger share of abilities with no replacements. ]

I believe many of us are performing just because they like to. We could have no game benefits at all to provide, we will still find entertainers. My current mood is to dance and play songs "streetside" and I have no need for XP at all. I perform because I like it, because it entertains people.

So, why not focusing on our capacity to entertain ? Which is totally independant from game mechanics. No discussion about inspiration and healing here. If more game system abilities comes later, good. If not... bah...

By giving us more tools and sharing some of our knowledge/abilities with others, we can preserve the specificity of entertainers and improve the game experience for everyone else.

Thanks for reading (more to come probably)

Chali
Quiet master dancer on Starsider... in theory

Panthu

Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:55 pm

#2

I always liked ideas like this, because I think it fits in very well with the original concepts of letting everyone have a basic ability to fire a gun and non-CH pets.

No matter how it's done, I'd really like to see non-Ents be able to "state dance" like we do on some level. I also always liked the idea of "Dance Lessons" that we could teach to non-Ents.

It really just depends on what the Devs want to do with our SP. If we are removed from the pool that Combat and Crafting profs pull their SP from, then everyone can have access to the full line of Dances by training up. So there would be no need for something like this or Dance Lessons.

I've supported each of these ideas before, they all have their own merits. No matter which one happens, I'll be glad when my non-lifestyle Ent friends can dance with me at parties.

P A N T H U Y GlitterUsagi
M i n d B o d y S p i r i t
Dancer ImageDesigner Doc

PoetDancer

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:55 pm

#3

My concern is not to figure out some way for those who have no desire to dance to acquire my dancing skills.

My concern is why we as dancers absolutely refuse to do the dances our patrons can do.

"/duck;/pause 5;/duck;" is a dance. Its a dance everyone can do...including us.

In fact, I am very impressed at the ability to string emotes in choreographed ways that resembles dances. And when I show others and teach them the combinations, they are suprised and overjoyed at the prospect that they too can dance and create routines just like us.

But it seems that instead of doing the work of discovering these new dances, learning these new dances, and teaching these new dances to others, we'd rather give our skills that we rehearsed and practiced away to every Moff, Mick, or Mary who wants them.

I have non entertainer friends too. And they have no desire to be one. Yet they can still dance.

And I make the effort to dance their dances, and to teach them.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 06-18-2005 12:49 AM

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

Chali_starsider

Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:01 am

#4

Stringing emotes is a workaround because the system doesn't give many common abilities to people. Emotes are great for social interactions, as moods (I like the animated moods).

Giving a dance or two (a fast and a slow paced dance for example) to everyone (so including entertainers) just allows people to use a tool designed for that, instead of using a workaround, a tool that could have been included at launch.

Like the /dance emote. It provokes a string of animation. If you add more "emoted" dances, like /dance, it could also fit.

However, by adding them to the game as a dance (as defined in the entertainer professions) and not an emote, you allow to use other dance commands : flourishes, bandflourishes.

I believe giving a base loop dance to everyone and keeping bandflourishing on entertainers' side could create more opportunities to everyone to have fun. Non dancers would get a new common animation but if a dancer is present, they could all perform as a group (bandflourishing).

It would be easier than using the emote workaround, giving more flexilibity and creativity to the entertainers leading the group. If the entertainer wants to change the way the dance look, he woldn't have to ask everyone to change the whole emote string and be sure everyone set it correctly. Just start, or not, that ot that bandflourish.

Now, about how much from our skills it would be given... a couple of basic dances, preferably new ones, is probably enough to improve the game for everyone.

People who don't care to dance won't even notice the addition, others interested would welcome it. No harm here.

My concern is why we as dancers absolutely refuse to do the dances our patrons can do.

That's a matter of perception. Choosing the entertainer professions come with receiving rewards : specific dances. Emotes are not a reward, they don't make you special or better in dancing.

It's still a game. You work on a profession, you receive something others don't have. That's the pattern for every profession.
Now, nothing prevent dancers to perform emoted dances, it's just a matter of personnal taste.

That's also a perception of what entertainment is, in game : a game mechanic (animated dances) supporting your role as a dancer ? or the way you are able to create entertainment from the tools you have (emotes and animated dances, moods, spatial chat...) ?

So far for entertaining. But dance ? Dance is supposed to be an art by itself, something everyone is not able to fully master unless he or she dedicates to !?

Some players want and love to see themselves as professional dancers, primary, so the capacity to perform dances few others can is important to them and they may prefer to stay "above" in dancing, just to mark their difference. Some others want and love to see themselves as entertainers so the game mechanics are less important, they find their way to entertain.

Both point of views are valid.

Chali
Quiet master dancer on Starsider... streetside performing !

Ramona_Garcia

Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:09 am

#5

I oppose the opening of entertainer abilities to everyone. It removes interdependency, and cheapens what we can do. People who can't be bothered to take 5 minutes and track an artisan down for some cooking stuff are not really interested in socialising anyway.

The basic ID options are something every entertainer has - is it so hard for anyone to just ask an entertainer for it?

It may sound a good idea, but, in my experience, such stuff backfires. I am a dancer since july/august 03, never dropped dancing, I love to dance in cantinas and do gigs, love to socialize. But even I did not visit a med center or rped with a doc after I aquired meditate 4 in 03. Before I could heal wounds myself I usually visited the med center even if I had just 5 wounds, and chatted with the doc. Afterwards it fell away.

Now, if I, who really only joined SWG for the social professions, drop possible interaction out of convenience, what do you think others will do?

Give everyone the ability to do our dances, and we will be left behind for sheer convenience.

Ramona Garcia
Dancer
Neutron Pixies

A couple of stories

Chali_starsider

Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:51 am

#6

Well, people can start a /dance emote. If developpers are going to give, say,2 more, new /dance emotes, it wouldn't being any harm on entertainers ?

Yet, they still will be emotes, totally separated from the dance mechanics (notably bandflourishes).

Now, if those two new dances are considered as "dances" by the game system, entertainers could influence them, bandflourishing for the whole group.

Are you against the possibility of giving to new /dance emotes to everyone ?

I just propose to make them part of the dances mechanics instead of pure emotes.

There is no difference to me to allow someone to start a /dance or a /startcommondance X. Both just are animations. Save in one case, no entertainers can improve them by bandflourishing.

I don't call for giving all dances to everyone. My wish would be to give everyone new animations, part of the dance system, to allow entertainers to include them into their own performance.

I don't wish to see everyone able to perform dances up to Exotic4, just to see at least one, or a couple of, dance shared by entertainers and others. Make this dance totally new and you'll be my hero !

Then, I wouldn't say adding a single new common dance is harming entertainers. It's adding. We still would have our specific dances and to perform them, people will have to invest time and SP.

Actually, everyone can shoot with a CDEF weapon. It doesn't make all combattants less worthy. I just suggest something similar when speaking of social abilities, here dances. Currently, it's either a /dance emote, or a string of emotes, as stated.

Now, about cooking, thanks for the comment but I was just trying to broaden the discussion on how we could think about picking things there and there, just no from entertainers because they were "flagged" as "social".

Chali, Quiet master dancer on Starsider... raising her shield

Dancer Archive

Thread: Theorical discussion : entertaining at heart