Dancer Archive
Thread: The Hand in the Sky, and the Dancer That Grabs It.
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PoetDancer
Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:10 am
#1
Here's another "rethinking" about where we can go, or what can be changed. I don't do this type of thing often, but it comes as a result of some reflection on what our problems really stem from.
Indeed, the problems of this class test one's faculties. I wanted to play a dancer. I did not want to be a mechanics dispenser, especially since the mechanics we are responsible for are rather contrived. I could understand fatiuge healing, but mind wounds and buffs? Shouldn't a medic do that?
But then again, does BF alone really give us much of a reason to log on and play? Since it can be done by an unattended character, I'd say not really. Indeed, all of our functions can be done by unattended characters.
However, our class is not the only aspect in this game that seems contrived. A lot of things do, like who is the driving force behind the creation of credits? The combat folk? Since when did combat folk have a mind for what needs to be done?
There is no real thing that makes credits (unless you are a duper...but we won't get into that). Sure, players make them through missions, but where do the missions come from? Nobody. Its basically a "hand in the sky" that puts all the credits into the world through non player characters and mission terminals.
But is that realistic? Indeed, there is no limiting factor in how many credits can come pouring into the world. But one thing I can say for certain is that we hardly see much of what a player brings home from Dathomir.
But what if the regularity of missions becomming available required some sort of player mechanic? What if terminals did not have an infinate amount of missions that they just draw "out of the sky," but start out blank, and must have the missions put there by somebody who discovers what the city or faction needs to get done? In other words, what if we were the ones who sold missions to the terminals?
Basically, NPCs would come into the cantina, whom we could talk to, and acquire missions. These missions would then be put in our datapad, to be placed on the terminals with a sort of "finders fee" of some scalable amount, or to another player directly. From there, players would take and do the missions as normal.
This has the potential to give players real reasons to become and play as entertainers, since they ultimately will be the economic engine that moves the galaxy. Missions for faction terminals can work in a similar way, with factioned dancers or musicians loading faction terminals at a base or terminal.
Some like Drygo like the interdependence aspect of SWG. This provides it. It gives everybody a reason to respect entertainers, because they will finally be able to do something that is crucial to the good economic order of the server. Instead of being at the back end of the money supply, we'll be at the front end of it, ensuring we get paid first for doing in game and attended effort, instead of what we usually get, which is nothing.
And if we do this, we'd no longer need to do the kind of medical functions we do currently. We'll still have battle fatiuge, but we'll also have something important, useful, and worthwhile to do that is more in line with what we are about.
Kareanne
Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:07 am
#3
This is a cool idea, but I don't know if entertainers could keep enough missions supplied on the terms alone for everyone looking for missions. Maybe the missions the entertainers loaded into the terminal could be high level and have much higher payouts than than the regular missions. They could also be limited to the faction and bh type terminals, so it plays more to the GCW.
I don't like the idea of getting rid of BF healing because that is a major role for entertainers in war time as well. Think of our roll as the USO/AFE here. I've been thinking it would be great if entertainers could set up their own camps out in the field somewhere to use as mobile cantinas....heard that rangers will have a camp that we can heal bf in, but think it should be something ents can control. They could even come with stages and rowed seating.
I don't like the idea of getting rid of BF healing because that is a major role for entertainers in war time as well. Think of our roll as the USO/AFE here. I've been thinking it would be great if entertainers could set up their own camps out in the field somewhere to use as mobile cantinas....heard that rangers will have a camp that we can heal bf in, but think it should be something ents can control. They could even come with stages and rowed seating.
DoctorDe
Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:21 am
#4
Camps are a ranger thing but maybe the ranger puts it down and if you are in his group, you can place a stage and seating!! That would be cool.
Kareanne
Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:34 am
#5
DoctorDe wrote:
Camps are a ranger thing but maybe the ranger puts it down and if you are in his group, you can place a stage and seating!! That would be cool.
Well I was thinking it would be more of a mobile cantina than what you'd normaly think of as a camp...there'd be no tents or campfire etc.
Dreamland
Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:36 am
#6
PoetDancer wrote:
Here's another "rethinking" about where we can go, or what can be changed. I don't do this type of thing often, but it comes as a result of some reflection on what our problems really stem from.
Indeed, the problems of this class test one's faculties. I wanted to play a dancer. I did not want to be a mechanics dispenser, especially since the mechanics we are responsible for are rather contrived. I could understand fatiuge healing, but mind wounds and buffs? Shouldn't a medic do that?
But then again, does BF alone really give us much of a reason to log on and play? Since it can be done by an unattended character, I'd say not really. Indeed, all of our functions can be done by unattended characters.
However, our class is not the only aspect in this game that seems contrived. A lot of things do, like who is the driving force behind the creation of credits? The combat folk? Since when did combat folk have a mind for what needs to be done?
There is no real thing that makes credits (unless you are a duper...but we won't get into that). Sure, players make them through missions, but where do the missions come from? Nobody. Its basically a "hand in the sky" that puts all the credits into the world through non player characters and mission terminals.
But is that realistic? Indeed, there is no limiting factor in how many credits can come pouring into the world. But one thing I can say for certain is that we hardly see much of what a player brings home from Dathomir.
But what if the regularity of missions becomming available required some sort of player mechanic? What if terminals did not have an infinate amount of missions that they just draw "out of the sky," but start out blank, and must have the missions put there by somebody who discovers what the city or faction needs to get done? In other words, what if we were the ones who sold missions to the terminals?
Basically, NPCs would come into the cantina, whom we could talk to, and acquire missions. These missions would then be put in our datapad, to be placed on the terminals with a sort of "finders fee" of some scalable amount, or to another player directly. From there, players would take and do the missions as normal.
This has the potential to give players real reasons to become and play as entertainers, since they ultimately will be the economic engine that moves the galaxy. Missions for faction terminals can work in a similar way, with factioned dancers or musicians loading faction terminals at a base or terminal.
Some like Drygo like the interdependence aspect of SWG. This provides it. It gives everybody a reason to respect entertainers, because they will finally be able to do something that is crucial to the good economic order of the server. Instead of being at the back end of the money supply, we'll be at the front end of it, ensuring we get paid first for doing in game and attended effort, instead of what we usually get, which is nothing.
And if we do this, we'd no longer need to do the kind of medical functions we do currently. We'll still have battle fatiuge, but we'll also have something important, useful, and worthwhile to do that is more in line with what we are about.
If dancers are the only means of supplying said missions they will not be able to keep up to the demand. The unlimited mission terminals will always have to be available. To me it's an even bigger deal to mess with the combat classes mission availability than it is to give them battle fatigue.
Now if you are talking about a secondary mission system whereby dancers andperhaps evenother players are included such as crafters, Whereby live players can create a substantialy better mission through their time being invested.Then post that mission on a separate dilivery medium than the standard misson terminal for the combat or galactic civil war participant to do. In such a way that the mission taker gets a far better reward and perhaps a more interesting mission than the auto mission terminal, with the creator recieving a cut ot the profit upon completion. Then that would be something that might be interesting.
PoetDancer
Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:29 am
#7
What are terminals other than a convenience? Missions are still available to everyone from NPCs all throughout the galaxy. The fact that these resources are not used is a shame, but understandable if one can get the same basic content at a static terminal with predictable results. To be quite honest, its possible to play and earn cash without ever going to a terminal at all.
But missions today are not really valued by combat players. They just cycle through them a thousand times until the "money god" comes up with a squill mission, or a mokk mission--and not only that--but a mokk mission in the direction they want too. They do not keep missions if something comes up. They just drop them, full in the notion that they can drop them at any time and receiveexactly identical ones. Wasteful, unrealistic, and ultimately, a big bore. There needs to be some sort of importance around missions and their completion. Right now there isn't, because if one isn't willing or able to do it, they'll simply drop it and get a new one from the perpetual "money god."
Now this is just my opinion, but the reason we don't see anyone at Doaba Gurfeil, Moenia, Mos Espa, or player cities for that matteris that one has the same mission content no matter where they go. The "Hand in the Sky" drops a perpetual amount of missions everywhere equally. However, if the terminals are empty in a particular region, it gives players an incentive to either:
1) Go somewhere else to get missions, somewhere they might not ordinarily go.
or,
2) Get a performer to start performing locally to draw missions.
Either way, we become important again. We become the social hub again, and we provide the content in a convenient way. It provides a unique twist and a notion of interdependence that is appealing. Its uniquely entertainer. This along with the BF function makes sense. The enhancement lines can be replaced with enhancements to mission types we can draw: artisan, bounty hunter, etc.
Will anyone like it? I know I will.Some grinders, powergamers, and others won't. But then again, they did not like the ID stat migration ability either. Again, one of the problems in this game is that credits are so easy to get for some professions simply by extorting "the hand in the sky" by going to Dantooine and coming home with millions of credits for not much risk. Other classes don't have that luxury, especially us.
But I believe the benefits of having mission terminal content a matter of player effort far outweigh the costs.It creates the kind of dynamic content and deep gameplay that has been sorely lacking.
Padtai
Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:45 pm
#8
Now spying and mission generation is a neat idea, and would be great to *supplement* what entertainers can do in the game, but it does not encourage them to be playing actively *as* entertainers performing *for* people. You'll get players talking to the mission terminal, not to the dancer to get the mission. Surely that isn't what you wanted?
I explain this a little better in the post Dancerulz started on the same topic, but where's the fix for the levelling process for entertainers, how do those entertainers who enjoy the connection to combat and being healers fit into it, andhow does this make playing a *dancer* more fun in terms of dancing?
The way I see this idea, you dance for fun, and the functional "mission creation stuff" happens incidentally to what you are doing. You can still ignore the bulk of your dancing skills as it doesn't reallywhether you have one dance or three, long as you are dancing, the NPCs will come and give missions to entertainers who then must do the "busy" work of leaving the cantina to post the missions. You don't get any reward for dancing in an entertaining way or even puttingany thought into it, or for interacting engagingly with patrons, just for dancing for long enough to encounter NPCs.
This also creates problems for those in other roles as someone explained above, it would make playing those roles less fun. I don't see it as generally increasing the fun in the game overall.
On the other hand, supplementing the current mission system with "special" entertainer generated ones, but not replacing them completely, would be great. You're right, ordinary missions *are* boring, but they are reliable and sometimes, that is what a player wants. Other times though, they are up for adventure, and seeing perhaps a special colored mission that is more involved than the ordinary ones, that might involve travel to another place to do something that doesn't work like the run of the "go to x target and kill it" type missions, might lure people in. Its better than forcing them to go to differentcities to do the same type of mission just because its not available on the first planet--sort of like, how meat shifts force us to go to lokone week or rori the next, still doesn't matter, its the same boring mechanic of go to waypoint, slaughter and return.
But as I said, the idea of picking up gossip while dancing isn't quite rewarding entertainers *for* dancing.
So I'd rather see special missions with "tickets" like the corvette, where the dancer has to do something active in response to the game as part of getting the mission or doing the mission. For example, if you dance in wayfar, you might encounter an NPC who will tell you that Jabba wants you to entertain a potential business contact of his. If you go there, and can entertain the contact (using the theater quest type mechanic), you get a ticket to a special convoy ship (same idea as vette), with the guy's cargo on it. There's a chance you may or may not please the contact, and maybe you have to talk to people to find out what he likes to see in a performance (make it more immersive than the theater quest, be nice if the named the flourishes and such). Then if you suceed, it is your choice to turn that into Jabba fora special item reward like a prop (signed poster from Max rebo?), or to recruit friends to go do the mission (or to sell the ticket for cash to other players). Something along those lines to allow those entertainers who like combat access to content or the choice to avoid it if they don't but stil be rewarded in a way that's meaningful to them. Now thse special missions could depend on which cantina you chose (or hotel ...like the despot or star), and would depend on entertainers spreading out across the galaxy, touring to find these special things. Some could require a "group" performance, but there are ways to have the game promote storyline driven quests that would give entertainers something to talk about *with* people and require them to act like entertainers inthe process. Maybe to ask for clues as to whether people have seen certain NPCs about etc.
I did the theater quest with a non-entertainer friend helping me. It was interesting instead of watching and helping combat players meet their goals, to have a combat player trying to help me entertain for a switch. Now the theater quest isn't hte most immersive way of doing that, of getting the idea of performance as something that matters in this galaxy into the game, but it was a start. I think it would be neat to have some quests that depend upon entertainers acting like entertainers to advance the adventure in the star wars galaxy. Its just it would be too sporadic to become the *only* way to approach playing the game.
PoetDancer
Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:46 pm
#9
Its a radical proposal, no doubt. I did not expect us to embrace it without caution.
That being said, we have to go deeply into what makes sociability an operative concept. Because the entertainment professionshave turned outto be some of the most unsociable professions in the game. And the reason they are is that our game rests entirely on another player's goodwill. We have no unique connection to the game world, only to other players in the game world.
Every profession caninteract with the game world in a way that other players can't. Politicians set town archetecture.Crafters can do artisan missions, create vendors, and create things of permanance. We however have no game without another player to use us. Therefore, this puts our game wholly in the hands of others, where it can--and has been--abused.
Its no wonder we were left out of the jedi publish. The jedi trials are interactions with the system. Since wehave never reallyinteracted with the system, we really have no place there. And it just goes to show that our game is not our own as much as it our audience that determines our game for us.
...And they have, for the benefit of them, and not for us.
So what I want is a connection to the game world that is uniquely entertainer, undeniable, necessary, and requires effort, exploration, player choice, and can be done by no other entity. The trick is though to make an interaction with the system an interaction that is condusive to sociability. This is. By generating the content for a particular region, plus by generating BF healing,we draw players to us in a way no other mechanic comes close to duplicating. This also gives us respect. Performing live won't be something that simply gets us paid. Performing live will be the means to allow everyone else to get paid through the convenience of terminals. This is what will be the incentive to have players want our services. We can draw out what needs to be done in the region they want us.
I also want something that can be worthwhile even if nobody is around to perform for. Tell me. What can we do in Doaba Gurfel besides wait for someone to come to us? The problem with these professions has always been that our game is only as good as there are people to watch. There is absolutely no solo aspect to what we do. That's a problem no other class has. This solves it.
In fact, I am only beginning to see how this type of function for us can solve many different problems this game has. What reason is there now to go to Doaba Gurfeil, or Wayfar?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 10-30-2004 07:56 PM
Reachwind
Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:44 pm
#10
What ever happened to dancers and musicians wanting to entertain?
Instead of looking for new definitions of "entertainer" why not just go to the root of what an entertainer is and try to make the current game more inline with tht dynamic?
I'd say that an a real entertainer needs just a few things;
A platform to deliver service (a stage)
An audience of interested onlookers
A decent method of performance that can be bad or good depending upon the imagination of the performer, the skill of the performer and the interest of the audience.
Right now SWG's entertainer professions have 0 of three IMO. The cantina is not designed for entertainers, the theaters suck and out door stages eye candy. The audience hates us. Of course most importantly... Our dances, music and effects are pure crap.
Instead of looking for new definitions of "entertainer" why not just go to the root of what an entertainer is and try to make the current game more inline with tht dynamic?
I'd say that an a real entertainer needs just a few things;
A platform to deliver service (a stage)
An audience of interested onlookers
A decent method of performance that can be bad or good depending upon the imagination of the performer, the skill of the performer and the interest of the audience.
Right now SWG's entertainer professions have 0 of three IMO. The cantina is not designed for entertainers, the theaters suck and out door stages eye candy. The audience hates us. Of course most importantly... Our dances, music and effects are pure crap.
Message Edited by Reachwind on 10-30-2004 05:45 PM
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