Dancer Archive
Thread: Dancers, where *should* we go from here?
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DanceRulez
Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:50 am
#1
Ok, an interesting topic of discussion has come up in the AFK thread, but as it's not really about AFK, I thought it deserved it's own thread to contain the information in a better place and make it easier to reference. It has to do with where we think that we, as dancers and entertainers, fit in to this game and what our roles are. Perhaps these are questions that the devs are ultimately going to be considering, and possibly, redefining, so maybe we should present them with some of our ideas once again and in one place. Panthu had a great post giving us some things to think about which I would like to quote here..
I've been doing some thinking about this and I have some ideas, but I'll have to come back to this later and write them down then. For now I would like to submit this for others to consider and start posting their ideas. Let's try not to concern ourselves with the problems of bots here and not focus too much on AFK'ing but good ideas on what we could or should be doing. Perhaps some of you who already posted in the AFK thread might want to repost your ideas here.
I hope this will give you a little backup, Panthu.
Panthu wrote:
You can not get to Master Dancer with out doing combat healing. We have not been given any income plan other than doing combat healing and buffing for tips. Ent Healing and Buffing has created bots that make us insane and miserable in our own area!I don't have one right answer I'm married to... there are many, and I pitch them all the time! You have to see that it's our connection to the heal cycle that is causing all of these problems with the Botting and the fact that we aren't considered healers. Dancer needs to be considered in the CU. Not just how our buffs and heals fit into the game, but also how we as players do! What are we getting in return for our connection to combat? Is it good for us? Is it bad for us? Do people like it? Will people do it?
Does BF improve the game? For who? Ents? Non-Ents? Does taking Mind Wound Healing and Buffing away from Medical Healers still make sense? Are we benefiting from it as Ent Players? Are Non-Ents benefiting from it? Are Medics? Does it improve the game?
How well are we leveling with our combat dependent XP? Is it good for us? Is it good for others? Does it enhance anyone's game experience?
Look beyond the suckfest that is our AFK leveling and Botting and remember what the point of Ent Healing was supposed to be. It was supposed to be a reward for Ents. Our Social game was a given, they were going to let us have that no matter what, the Ent Healing was our reward. So being Social could be made to function like other Professions. So we could fit into the larger game while we did something to make us money and a role in the game at large.
How's Ent Healing working out for you? Would the Bots be there if there were no Ent Healing? Would we have another way to make money? Who are we supposed to interact with? What is our worth? What other profs should we "stack with" and enhance? What is the point of Ent Healing? Is it fun? Could it be?
Bots are an effect, not a cause. Macros are a tool, we used to know them better than anyone else. It might be the time to break our tie completely with combat. It might be the time to save our weird marriage with combat. Either way, it's time for people to step up and fight for something to be done about it so we can all get back to what we really want to be doing in this game.
What has combat given you as a Dancer? Do we want half of our XP based on something we aren't even considered a part of and have no control over? Are we ok with our only plan for income being 100% combat dependent? Are we ok with servicing an area of the game that gives us no perks?
There's a lot to talk about. There's a lot to ask the Devs about as a Dancer in the CU. They don't ignore numbers.... I need back up. *shrug*
I've been doing some thinking about this and I have some ideas, but I'll have to come back to this later and write them down then. For now I would like to submit this for others to consider and start posting their ideas. Let's try not to concern ourselves with the problems of bots here and not focus too much on AFK'ing but good ideas on what we could or should be doing. Perhaps some of you who already posted in the AFK thread might want to repost your ideas here.
I hope this will give you a little backup, Panthu.
Xinamm
Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:50 pm
#2
I believe that, in order to answerthese series of very tough questions, it is best for those of us who dance because we enjoy it, to go back and think about why we love our profession. We need to ask ourselves, why did we start dancing in the first place? What is keeping us here, even with all the problems running rampant, and a very dim light at the end ofa very long tunnel?
At this point, I don't believe we are getting much of a return by being connected to combat. But, without BF/wound healing and mind buffs...where would we be? Would people still come into the cantinas just to watch us? If these things were taken away....where would that leave our profession?
I think the idea of BF itself in the game as a whole is a good one, and should stay where it is. But I also believe that entertainers are not necessarily the best people to leave the task of healing it with. It doesn't make much sense to me that entertainers heal wounds....you would not go to a concert to be healed if you had just been in a fight, would you? You would go to a doctor, logically. I don't think there is any direct benefit to us by being healers. True, we rely on tips from those we heal and buff, but I'll get to that in a minute.
I am a Master Dancer, and have been for quite some time now. I am honestly tired of being harassed for buffs constantly, not being tipped what the buffs should be worth (nothing less than 5k on my server), and being seen as a 'tool' to combat professions. We are not appreciated as we should be for what we do for them. But then again if these things were not present, what would we be good for? Whether buffing/healing stays or goes....we need do be able to do *something*where wecan be treated with respect by our fellow players, and not be just taken for granted.
At this point, I don't believe we are getting much of a return by being connected to combat. But, without BF/wound healing and mind buffs...where would we be? Would people still come into the cantinas just to watch us? If these things were taken away....where would that leave our profession?
I think the idea of BF itself in the game as a whole is a good one, and should stay where it is. But I also believe that entertainers are not necessarily the best people to leave the task of healing it with. It doesn't make much sense to me that entertainers heal wounds....you would not go to a concert to be healed if you had just been in a fight, would you? You would go to a doctor, logically. I don't think there is any direct benefit to us by being healers. True, we rely on tips from those we heal and buff, but I'll get to that in a minute.
I am a Master Dancer, and have been for quite some time now. I am honestly tired of being harassed for buffs constantly, not being tipped what the buffs should be worth (nothing less than 5k on my server), and being seen as a 'tool' to combat professions. We are not appreciated as we should be for what we do for them. But then again if these things were not present, what would we be good for? Whether buffing/healing stays or goes....we need do be able to do *something*where wecan be treated with respect by our fellow players, and not be just taken for granted.
The money/tips issue: I honestly think that entertainer mission terminals should have missions on it extremely similar to the theatre manager quest, and have payouts at or near what combat missions pay, according to your skill level of course. Not only having a certain number of people watch you, but you must be able to satisfy an audience, in order to get your reward.In doing missions like the quest, you have to show that you know your profession, and know how to entertain. Some missions could require group performances, syncing flourishes, etc(a higher payout could be involved as these would take time to rehearse for).You can see where I'm heading with this thought....I'm at work, and it's hard to concentrate 
As for what would our purpose be, if we had no healing or buffing? That is something I honestly can't answer. My favorite part of the whole profession is the social aspect of it....all the people on my friends list, are people I've met dancing. Some of them have become extremely close, and I have this profession to thank for that. If we could somehow ensure that people would still come watch us, although we offer nothing to combatants.....I am not sure how that could be done.
I love this profession, and I would be heartbroken if it were to be taken out of the game. I've had the thought of dropping it before, but I just can NOT bring myself to type 'yes' in the surrender skill dialog box. It is so fun, and so rewarding on a personal level, that no other professions (besides other ent. profs) even come close to us. Many have said over and over, entertainers are the nicest people in the game. I agree whole-heartedly.
I can't answer all the questions Panthu posed to us. But I hope this helps answer a few of them, maybe guide a few more dancers to answer them...and I hope not to offend anyone byanything I've said.
As for what would our purpose be, if we had no healing or buffing? That is something I honestly can't answer. My favorite part of the whole profession is the social aspect of it....all the people on my friends list, are people I've met dancing. Some of them have become extremely close, and I have this profession to thank for that. If we could somehow ensure that people would still come watch us, although we offer nothing to combatants.....I am not sure how that could be done.
I love this profession, and I would be heartbroken if it were to be taken out of the game. I've had the thought of dropping it before, but I just can NOT bring myself to type 'yes' in the surrender skill dialog box. It is so fun, and so rewarding on a personal level, that no other professions (besides other ent. profs) even come close to us. Many have said over and over, entertainers are the nicest people in the game. I agree whole-heartedly.
I can't answer all the questions Panthu posed to us. But I hope this helps answer a few of them, maybe guide a few more dancers to answer them...and I hope not to offend anyone byanything I've said.
Hang in there everyone....once you hit rock bottom (and I think we pretty much have), there's no place to go but up.
MethodSDT
Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:37 pm
#3
I am very much concerned about what is going to happen to all the entertainer professions in the CU, and if there is going to be a entertainer revamp sometime after.
The entertainer professions have never truly fit into SWG like the other professions. We are supposed to be "social" professions, and yet a connection to combat was handed to us all the same. And although we have a connection to combat, it always seems the entertainer professions are overlooked when combat is discussed (even though a Master Dancer getsa +7 to ranged and melee defense for some reason). It seems that the "role" of entertainer professions has become very clouded, and perhaps the original concept these professions has gotten lost somewhere down the line.
I see two option for the entertainer professions (Musician and Dancer, at least). Either remove the buffs and the BF healing, remove the Skill Point requirements, and make them "fun" professions. Orclearly define the "role" of Musician and Dancer, and revamp both professions to fit that defined "role".
If Musician and Dancer are to be more than a "fun" profession -- also meaning that both professions can make a decent income -- then people are going to have to start thinking out-of-this-box that we are in and make some substantial changes. One of the biggest changes needs to be done to the buffing system. As it stands right now, it's unreliable. It's time consuming. And it is nowhere in-line with that of doctor buffs... that is, when you can find a Dancer or Musician. This inconvenience often turns into resentment of the entertainer professions, which makes buffbots so appealing.
Doctor buffs are more reliable, last longer, and you only have to go to one profession to get primaries and secondaries buffed. Not to mention the short amount of time that it takes to get not just primaries and secondaries buffed, but primaries and secondaries buffed for Health and Action. There should be no question about reliability once you reach Master, and the length in which it takes to buff should be relatively short. The length of the buff should be comparable to a doctor buff. And I am a firm believer that either Dancer or Musician should buff primaries and secondaries. As it stands, Dancer and Musician are too much alike in function. I would rather see Musician buff all three Mind stats and Dancer buff effectiveness in combat, or vice versa. Unfortunately, these things cannot be accomplished without adding an apparent "cost" to buffing. But the fact that entertainer buffs "cost" nothing, also adds to others hesistation to pay for the service.
The entertainer buff system needs to be revamped if it's to be kept. And it needs to be changed in a manner that makes it more convenient and desireable for the customer. I believe this alone will get rid of some of the disrespect, and add a genuine income for Dancers and Musicians. This also willalleviate the pain people perceive associated with buffbots being taken away.
There's more, but I think I've rambled enough. The main point is that if Dancer and Musician are to remain more than just a "fun" profession, its role needs to be defined and the profession revamped. If they are going to be just "fun" professions, remove BF healing and buffing, and get rid of the skill point requirements.
Padtai
Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:54 pm
#4
I read through the suggestions above, so here's my thoughts. The concept of "spies" and being "mission contacts" is itneresting, but I think its missing some key aspects that ought to be touched on in any improvement plan:
1) The identity of entertainers as performers: The coreof the class isn't actually just "socialization" ....its dance. Yes, the talk is important, but your identity as a dancer first andforemost ough to be preserved and there ought to be a reason for you to use your dancing skills in some way as part of your interaction with npcs and with other players.That identity as a dancer (or musician) ought to serve as a base for conversation, not just be in the background while you talk about the something else...otherwise, what does it matter if you don't have new dances or props, if you're "active" game play actually involves talking to NPCs, then talking to players (not performing for them)?Furthermore, someone else did a little survey, and many entertainers *like* their ties to combat and being healers, and not just those whousethe class in a "sticky" manner. Why cut those people out of the future vision of the class?
2) The passivity of the class for levelling : The class is passive in order to allow socializers and performers the ability to roleplay and talk, which you cant do so well if you're trying to do some timed reaction "jump through the hoop" thing. That's the usual reason some suggest to cut those who want function out, you feel it must be one or the other (but I disagree, you can see my post for one way to acocmplish it). The passivity has become the great problem though, allowing automation and feelings of helplessness in terms of controlling one's advanced inthe game, even without regard to the "sticky" uses post master.
3) The passivity of the class for economic viability:: Tips are an unreliable source of income and lead to frustration. Selling a costless service is a tricky proposition as well, as its all too easy for your customers to feel you ought to just give it away. Besides if income comes to you without any measure of what effort you put into it, then there is less incentive to put much effort in.
So the spy idea might work as a way to expand the role of dancer, but it doesn't fix what's wrong now. There's no reason to interact with players *as* a dancer, and no way to earn money *for* that dancing. I'm not sure how levelling would fit into it either.
I realize some people are afraid of having a functional role to play as they feel it invites people to "bother you". Well there are jerks and nice people, and ultimately, if you don't want to bother with the jerks to provide something useful, the nice people also won't have reason to bother stepping into the cantina except as a really rare thing done out of curiosity. Guilds won't have reasons to recruit you, players won't have reasons to ask for your help...it goes on from there, and I don't see it as an improvement over the situation today.
I find it odd that some of you question the connection between healing and entertainment. Yes music and dance don't heal in the pharmacological sense, but they have long been held to have "thereapeutic" benefits for people (even plants!...well just music, can't say anyone danced for plants). There are mental conditions, sometimes connected to wars such as depression, post traumatic stress disorder, that don't always require medical intervention to treat. Music and dance can be part of the healing process in that sense....and I think that is the sense the development team thought of it too, and why they put the class in the healing cycle, yet don't consider them "true" healers as the medic classes. Your'e alternative therapy.
So I did say the spy thing sounded good , but I see it more as occasional content not the bread and butter play. Perhaps occasionally entertainers will if they play long enough somewhere, draw out an NPC who can give the entertainer access to a special "instanced" mission desigend to promote group interaction among entertainers and among other classes. So maybe you need to get a troup to impress Lady Valarian at her place, and if you do, she tips you off to a special "instanced" dungeon giving you ticket (like the way the corvette works) to get a group inside (but I'd make the ticket tradeable as I know some entertainers don't want to be forced into combat).
Padtai
Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:07 am
#5
You're right, this really is a separate topic, so I'm copying what I wrote in the sticky here....I do mention the "sticky" subject a little, so please excuse that.
I have some thoughts on what could be changed in the plan to make entertainer a more viable and funclass to play.
First let me sketch what my vision of dancer is: A socializer, healer, money-maker but most of all, a performer. If you weren't a performer, then all those dance skills and such wouldn't matter at all andthere would be no need for a *profession* if all you wanted to do was chat about random stuff. The game needs to give context to your in-game identity as a performer, and as a performer in the Star Wars Galaxy.
Second, what am I trying to fix? The current mess of the profession is due tothe fact buffs are too easy to make andviewed as a necessity, not a luxury item,not the timing. Maybe a few people go into cantinas "post combat" then log, but many just go in whenever the fatigue is too high, whether that's before or after or for many, in between.And ultimately,as long as dancers and musicians provide anything with a functional benefit that doesn't have an additional cost to the skill, people will want to automate even if it is just a sort of luxury item. If you made your "interaction" bonus unimportant, that would cut you out of the game to a large extent and I think that is why ID's were given stat migrations. Architects make fun stuff, but they also have harvesters. I think every class needs something "Functional" in some sense to tie to the rest of the game, but in a sort of optional way for the social classes. That is, architects could choose to make just furniture and paintings if they wanted. Tailors could avoidmaking high socket clothing and special stat based things and instead just make special outfits they feel look good. There's a choice to how one wants to play and no pressure to be one way or the other since the product isn't generally provided face to face. This of course is the trouble for entertainers. If someone isn't happy with your choice of function to fun, they are right there in your face to tell you. But that's just something you'll have to live with being in a service profession...doctors have to deal with that too.
Third, previous suggestions to make gameplay active have failed because they would destroy that which entertainers like--a soical and performance focus to the class. When you have a live audience, you want to choose what you show them so you can interact and perform for them. You want nothing to distract you from that as that is primarily why you play. Yet without active play somewhere in the process, the "live play" becomes substituted with inactive play to provide the functional benefit. And some people play this class for thefunctional benefit, with all the "fun" stuff being a bonus. So to cut the function out would remove the incentive to play the class for many who enjoy actually playing it...many entertainers like to buff and heal, its not just an activity done by bots.
I do have an answer to how to require active play to create functional things and gain experience, without ramming it down the throats of those who like the inactive, "fun" side to the class. Just don't require it at the same time.
I. Phased Active and Passive Game Play:
In real life, performers dont' just grab the stage. They practice. Often, hard and they choreograph too (or arrange). Then they are able to go perform.
So, if you get on stage without rehearsing, you can't do anything functional. No healing, no buffs no experience.
If and only ifyou are willing to spend the time to "rehearse" (that is do the active play mini-game), you can gain a measured right to buff, heal and get experience. This is the idea I laid out in the in-concept thread awhile back, tweaked a bit. It was based on a suggestion to have "charges" to your buffs that you generate by doing what you do now--dancing. Layered on top is a requirement that you do something requiring thought in response to the game itself, so that it cannot be done completely passively as it is now. And as it is "rehearsal" time, not "performance", you are free to choose when you engage in the game, leaving you free during real performances to concentrate on your own thing, not on doing the game thing.
Will it completely stop all bots or mules? No, but it would enforces the intended cost to what you do--player time. I think it would reduce those who afkbot, but allow those who are dedicated to muling because they need the buffs to continue, as they do for doctor right now. Now some of you worry this active gameplay would be too difficult or time consuming, but that isn't what I have in mind. It doesn't have to require much activity to be more than what is there now since really, there's nothing required of you now besides being logged in.
II. A New Set of Missions with a function:
My idea is to take those defunct entertainer missions and make them the substance of your gameplay from the active, functional side point of view. If you want to be able to gain experience, heal and buff, you go pick up a mission and "rehearse" for an NPC in a random cantina using the code from the first stage of the theater quest (the "do this flourish simon says." Not the "satisfy" the audience part, just the easier but still active bit. You play there in the random cantina for a bit and then earn some cash (about 10x more than it pays now by the way), and experience. The experience could be calculated on the basis of an exchange between time spent entertaining under the old time and an average time to complete such a mission, including travel. So say it takes about twenty minutes to go do a mission like this. And let's say if you were alone playing for 20minutes in the current system, you would have received 200 pts (just making up numbers here) of professsion experience. If you were in a group of three, you would get 600. If you do themission, then it would scale accordingly to how many people were in your band/troupe doing it with you and grant the same relative amount as under the current system. This way the mission system still gives an incentive to go perform gigs as groups. It also reinforces the idea that only active players can help you advance in the profession--my idea is each player would have to do a performance move at some point in the gig. So not quite the way the theater quest works, as that is solo.
Where do other non-entertainer players come into this? Well, once you do the mission you take the charges that you earn during it, and you can then decide when/where you want to use them to gain the healing experience for your class. So you may choose to wait around in a popular cantina, just jamming, until someone comes in. Leave in the two minutes "waiting time" requirement, but after that, if someone wants a buff, or healing, all they have to do is ask you and you can use the /setperformance command to dedicate your performance to them and instantly, they get what they want and can leave, or if they enjoy your performance, they can stay. I would make it so you could use these on yourself for no experience as happens now (but allow self-buffing), I'd leave in the limited performance areas requirement, but add ranger camps to the mix for places where entertainers can heal fatigue.
II.Reclaiming Spatial as a place for conversation:
Now to avoid the "spam" of "I'm buffing" etc. that docs use, I would fix registration so that players could input their names along with a description of what they do that can be accessed from any planet. So you could be on dathomir, check the holonet news for who's performing where, then hop shuttles (or your ship) and go see who you want to see. Because healing is now somewhat limited, its not like one master can monopolize a cantina for three for hours any more, let alone the entire galaxy. They would run out of charges and would have to go do the missionsto get more. Its also not like people could just give free buffs without that costing them anything in return. After all, they have to go do missions to get more buffs, and there is a chance they could fail the missions (if they were completely afk for example). I'd also suggest the developers start having the CSR's enforce the auction tab as the only approved method to advertise. I believe they said 30 second intervals is safe, but why can't they also require people to have any repeated message to advertise a good or service of any sort in auction, and otherwise, risk being warned for spamming? I think if they made an announcement, then warned a few people, it would shut down the bad habit in a hurry. As for barker droids, I say those should speak in auction and word bubbles that appear on screen, but not in the actual chat log for spatial (if that is possible). For entertainers, I'd also suggest they let you have a "marquee" at master to put on the front entrance of the cantina....so your name flashes across (along with other masters performing). Not necessary, but sort of seems like somethingyou'd see (maybe not in eisley but at the crashed ship cantinas).
Now to avoid the "spam" of "I'm buffing" etc. that docs use, I would fix registration so that players could input their names along with a description of what they do that can be accessed from any planet. So you could be on dathomir, check the holonet news for who's performing where, then hop shuttles (or your ship) and go see who you want to see. Because healing is now somewhat limited, its not like one master can monopolize a cantina for three for hours any more, let alone the entire galaxy. They would run out of charges and would have to go do the missionsto get more. Its also not like people could just give free buffs without that costing them anything in return. After all, they have to go do missions to get more buffs, and there is a chance they could fail the missions (if they were completely afk for example). I'd also suggest the developers start having the CSR's enforce the auction tab as the only approved method to advertise. I believe they said 30 second intervals is safe, but why can't they also require people to have any repeated message to advertise a good or service of any sort in auction, and otherwise, risk being warned for spamming? I think if they made an announcement, then warned a few people, it would shut down the bad habit in a hurry. As for barker droids, I say those should speak in auction and word bubbles that appear on screen, but not in the actual chat log for spatial (if that is possible). For entertainers, I'd also suggest they let you have a "marquee" at master to put on the front entrance of the cantina....so your name flashes across (along with other masters performing). Not necessary, but sort of seems like somethingyou'd see (maybe not in eisley but at the crashed ship cantinas).
III. More Options for Interaction and Game Play:
As an additional idea, I think entertainers ought to be able to perform non-stacking buffs identical to the things chef's can do for other mods or skills. I suggest these be non-stacking to avoid what has happened with brandy. Instead of being viewed as only an alternative to entertainers when you can't find one, its turned into something to either completely replace or otherwise not be good enough so one still must have a mindbuff. If you PVE, generally brandy is enough. If you PVP, well you need both because your opponent might have both. So because of the stack, its actually worse than if it didn't stack, since brandy isn't seen as an alternative to what you get when you cant' find an entertainer.. Now its hard to take things *away* from people (nerf, they cry), but if something new were added in, it woudl be easy to set it as non-stacking, and would also appease the chefs about potential lost business.
This leads to the next mini-game--choreography and arrangement. In the theaters there are some npcs named choreography teachers. Let's give them a function. If you perform for them, by matching their moves or their songs (so they actually perform something and don't tell you what it is, you have to 'read" it by listening or watching), then you can earn the right to do 3 special routines. These routines (a "super -charge") would allow the performer to deliver a non-stacking bonus like the chef ones. They would have to pick which ones though, such as you pick damage reduction like synthsteak, or dodge bonuses or a dizzy resistance. The performer next to you could pick wound treatment speed, wound treatment (lure in all the buffing docs), and harvest bonuses.Doesn't matter what, but every performer could be different in functional terms too, the way different crafters can specialize if they want. The limit is to force people to seek out different entertainers or at least, let their be a bonus to seeing a band as opposed to a single performer. Yes this would cut into chef sales somewhat, but in the end, maybe what would happen is players would check to see if live entertainers were around who catered to one thing or another, and if not, use the chef food. I'm suggesting these live bonuses ought to be *higher* than what chefs can currently do. But I'm also suggesting they be limited in scope and amount. So after you use up the "super-charges" you have to go try again to earn more. These missions would not pay anything or grant experience, but the application of the buff itself would give both. And again the limits and the gameplay requirement would prevent the mobbing of a bot we see now, with a bunch of people "grabbing" buffs as an afterthought.
III. Deeper Story Based Quests:
Over time, I'd like to see the developers intorduce gigs for specific NPCs like Jabba, Valarian, the Emperor and Han..most are already ina cantina . These would be "entertainer" friendly themeparks or "adventures", and would require you to go audition for a series of NPCs culminating in a final performance for the SWG charcter (this could work for ID's too... as go dress up Oola and make her pretty for Jabba or some random dancer for him...Valrian wants a little freshening up...that sort of thing). Some of these, the most rewarding ones, could involve requiring you to organize a group *and* get some ID done to pull it off, like everyone must do some holoemotes or something, or if not must, as helpful to a better final score on the performance. Rewards could be a mix of functional items to enhance your skills, as well as lots of fluffy fun things (special insignia clothing, dancing bantha or Jawa dolls, colored instruments, colored "props" like canes, sticks, swords) for the visuals. Some of the artwork for what I had in mind already exists, or the object, its just the only way to get it right now is combat related. The props for example could be weapons with no stats, but special colors so they look cool.
Some of thse quests could result in rewards that actually lead to som enew or existing instanced dungeon combat quests (like you get a vette ticket for example without having to visit the 3 pois), for those who enjoy that sort of thing, and others to special schematics for crafters. Entertainers could sell either item, or usethem to reward those who befriend them and help share their adventures.
I know thse ideas aren't perfect, and would require lots of developement time, even though there's some overlap with existing code. But I feel the answer to the new plan has to be something that requires some active play somewhere that's tied to the functional side of what you do, but in a way that absolutely doesn't force you to do it if you don't want to be functional. I also think it would be nice if there were expanded content in terms of a storyline with the major characters of the starwars world, and the les well known ones, particularly, the entertainer ones in Jabba's palace.
PoetDancer
Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:53 am
#6
I am getting to the point where I believe we need to ceace being a healing and buffing class to a large extent. I like the idea of battle fatiuge, but I think we have to think of new things that we can do. What are performers in the context of a galactic civil war? Spies, informants, socialites.
Right now we have an entire system of mission content that seems to come down out of the sky, into terminals, and into datapads. Why can't we somehow get involved with what the terminals say? Obviously, the missions have to come from somewhere. We could perform in cantinas healing battle fatiuge, while also talking to NPCs we run into to give us missions of various skill levels and types, that we could subsequently download to mission terminals so players could pick them up and do them.
We have to think outside the box and find a role that fits with what we do, similar to how the stat migration ability was given to image designers. Who would have thought that migrating statistics would be something image designers could do? But it works, and it makes sense. Maybe entertainment healing isn't what we really could be doing, but rather something else that we haven't ordinarily considered as being something players could do.
Panthu
Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:17 am
#7
Great answers guys! I'm really enjoying reading these... sometimes I worry about representing all of our concerns correctly as a correspondent and these kinds of heavy focus threads are something I come back to again and again while I am writing proposals and requests to keep me on the right track!
Kiriah
Mon Nov 01, 2004 3:15 pm
#8
Wow, lots of really nice, in depth suggestions here. I know I can't articulate all of the things swirling around in my mind, but I'll offer some (possibly incomplete) thoughts here:
Like Padtai, I don't really understand why entertainers being useful for healing seems so out of hand. We're obviously not healing up brain tumors, shearing damage, or skull trauma. We're not healing physical problems. We're healing the intagible, relaxing people, helping them cope with their day to day dissatisfactions (ok, not the actual players, but this is something I imagine our characters do for their characters, whether they're aware of it or not). We're as close to psychologists and therapists the game has. And we're cheaper. (Free, even)
I think the healing aspect is about the ONLY reason people bother visiting the Cantinas. Why do I think this? Because if they just wanted visual entertainment, we would all be scattered to the winds and people would still be watching us. The Theater quests are a decent example of how often people would actually watch us/listen to us perform when they know they won't be getting any actual benefit out of it (and you have to keep in mind, over a year after release there are still people who watch entertainers out in the street and don't realize it won't heal their wounds or BF, nor do they realize we can't buff out there).
If we want to be social, we need people to socialize with. The natural thing would be to socialize with other entertainers. Well, we already do that in NPC Cantinas and PC Cantinas, but it becomes extremely limiting (even if you took all the AFK bots out of the picture). Without combat people visiting us, we might as well not bother actually performing, and just chatter away with one another. Perhaps we'd perform to break the monotony, to admire our sexy selves wiggling in synch or show off our favorite flourishes. Combat people visiting us gives us variety in conversational options, it earns us reputations and makes striking up friendships with people who aren't chained to the Cantina's more likely. This also provides one of the few Role Playing opportunities pure Entertainers have, and offers similar opportunities to the players that visit us. It's FUN, at least it's fun for me.
The following ideas and suggestions ONLY apply if used together - if just pieces are taken, then the whole thing rather falls apart and simply further hurts the Entertainer professions (in my opinion). Please don't flame the following bits and pieces by overanalyzing them and pointing out the weak spots because I am aware of them, and I'm sure anyone reading them will be able to spot them - IF they are used seperately, and not as a whole. (Though if you see loopholes, suggested alternate methods would be great to see - I don't see anything productive coming out of, "Well this [idea] won't work." I do see something productive in "Well, this [idea] won't work as stated, [offer another option]." Wait a second, is that what I did to the idea that Entertainer Healing is a waste? Erm...forgive if that is so!)
I know it's been mentioned before, and it will be mentioned again, but my primary wish would be to give performers the ability to perform for only a select few people at a time. A set of people we must MANUALLY specify. A set of people we don't have to be grouped with. If we could limit who we heal, players would be more likely to interact with entertainers. Entertainers would HAVE to interact with combat characters in order to gain healing experience.
This is not to say that combat players couldn't get any form of Mind Wound and BF healing if none of the Entertainer bodies aren't being attended - they could. But it would be MUCH slower. I would put the difference like this: A Live entertainer who specifies that they're performing/working on/noticing a customer would heal a combat player about as fast as their skill in Entertainer Healing currently allows them to do automatically. An AFK entertainer who never specifies who they're performing for, who simply wiggles for dancing/music experience would heal about as effectively as a Novice Entertainer, regardless of their trained healing skill. To encourage Live entertainers further, Entertainer Healing experience would ONLY be rewarded for the Wounds and Battle Fatigue healed on those players the Entertainer specified. (Un-specified watchers or listeners would be healed at the same rate AFK entertainers would heal at, until such time as the entertainer begins to heal them specifically)
I do NOT think targetted, purposeful entertainer healing should be limited to only 1 person. I envision up to 5 players having their traumatized psyches soothed and melted away. I also envision some sort of window to keep track of who we are healing at any given time, showing how much more Mind wounding and Battle Fatigue the customer has. It would function roughly like (hopefully more smoothly than) the Medic skill, Diagnose.
I do NOT think healing should be limited to a group (being as they can hold 20 people, and we see how this works with buffing), or be remotely group dependant. Were this limited to groups, or enabled automatically for groups, it would actually encourage AFK performing were this idea to be implimented.
I do NOT think healing experience being shared automatically with the entire group (IN THIS SCENARIO ONLY) would be a good idea. Again, put a group of 20 performers together, and if they have a Master performer with them they would only need that Master to remain Live for the duration - perhaps make the Master the group leader. To give other performers incentive to remain live, Entertainer Healing experience would only be shared amongst characters within the group who are *currently* healing other combat characters as well - or at least within 10 minutes of others.
I do understand that some characters may simply monopolize the healing experience - but as I see it, these kinds of players are already doing so, often while AFK. I imagine these kinds of players to be the ones who are planting themselves in the front door, spamming for people to listen to/watch them for Mind Wound and BF healing, while rejecting any Entertainer group invitations they receive.
I think this might encourage Live Entertainers to aid one another, if only in a "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" sort of way. Perhaps if there are several Entertainers who are healing specific other players' wounds, they would actually get a Healing and experience bonus (if only because they're sharing the Healing experience with someone else).
If a combat player enters a cantina and has 2 performers, 1 more Highly Skilled and 1 Lower Skilled, that combat player has a set amount of experience they can offer to a performer. Both the Higher Skilled and Lower Skilled performers have the opportunity to gain all that experience. However, the more Highly Skilled Entertainer would be able to gain that experience at a significantly higher rate than the Lower Skilled performer, and the combat player would be able to be healed at an equally higher rate. The more Highly Skilled performer would also have the ability to heal more people than the Lower Skilled performer during a given period of time. This would scale Entertainer Healing experience in a way similar to the difference between Medic healing ability and experience returns, and Doctor healing ability and experience returns.
Yes, this does favor players who have reached the Elite professions. But it also offers a great opportunity to Live, Lower Skilled entertainers. If there are both a more Highly Skilled and Lower Skilled entertainer in a given Cantina, and the more Highly Skilled entertainer was AFK, that more Highly Skilled entertainer would a) not gain entertainer healing experience, and b) only be healing at the rate a Live Novice Entertainer heals at. As long as the Lower Skilled entertainer had trained in Entertainer Healing 1, they would be able to heal at a higher rate (even if only slightly, a point or two per round over a minute will add up at these levels) than an AFK Master Dancer/Musician - and get the involved healing experience.
I do think that this might also be a way to encourage players to find live performers rather than any mobile body.
...
Ok, I typed it all out, and then added and re-arranged/re-thought bits and pieces of it so if it sounds fragmented, well, it did rather end up that way. I apologize. Erm...yeah. Sorry if I repeated myself through that fragmentation.
Boy that turned out longer than I expected.
EDIT: Removed the word "short" since none of it looks remotely short now lol
Like Padtai, I don't really understand why entertainers being useful for healing seems so out of hand. We're obviously not healing up brain tumors, shearing damage, or skull trauma. We're not healing physical problems. We're healing the intagible, relaxing people, helping them cope with their day to day dissatisfactions (ok, not the actual players, but this is something I imagine our characters do for their characters, whether they're aware of it or not). We're as close to psychologists and therapists the game has. And we're cheaper. (Free, even)
I think the healing aspect is about the ONLY reason people bother visiting the Cantinas. Why do I think this? Because if they just wanted visual entertainment, we would all be scattered to the winds and people would still be watching us. The Theater quests are a decent example of how often people would actually watch us/listen to us perform when they know they won't be getting any actual benefit out of it (and you have to keep in mind, over a year after release there are still people who watch entertainers out in the street and don't realize it won't heal their wounds or BF, nor do they realize we can't buff out there).
If we want to be social, we need people to socialize with. The natural thing would be to socialize with other entertainers. Well, we already do that in NPC Cantinas and PC Cantinas, but it becomes extremely limiting (even if you took all the AFK bots out of the picture). Without combat people visiting us, we might as well not bother actually performing, and just chatter away with one another. Perhaps we'd perform to break the monotony, to admire our sexy selves wiggling in synch or show off our favorite flourishes. Combat people visiting us gives us variety in conversational options, it earns us reputations and makes striking up friendships with people who aren't chained to the Cantina's more likely. This also provides one of the few Role Playing opportunities pure Entertainers have, and offers similar opportunities to the players that visit us. It's FUN, at least it's fun for me.
The following ideas and suggestions ONLY apply if used together - if just pieces are taken, then the whole thing rather falls apart and simply further hurts the Entertainer professions (in my opinion). Please don't flame the following bits and pieces by overanalyzing them and pointing out the weak spots because I am aware of them, and I'm sure anyone reading them will be able to spot them - IF they are used seperately, and not as a whole. (Though if you see loopholes, suggested alternate methods would be great to see - I don't see anything productive coming out of, "Well this [idea] won't work." I do see something productive in "Well, this [idea] won't work as stated, [offer another option]." Wait a second, is that what I did to the idea that Entertainer Healing is a waste? Erm...forgive if that is so!)
I know it's been mentioned before, and it will be mentioned again, but my primary wish would be to give performers the ability to perform for only a select few people at a time. A set of people we must MANUALLY specify. A set of people we don't have to be grouped with. If we could limit who we heal, players would be more likely to interact with entertainers. Entertainers would HAVE to interact with combat characters in order to gain healing experience.
This is not to say that combat players couldn't get any form of Mind Wound and BF healing if none of the Entertainer bodies aren't being attended - they could. But it would be MUCH slower. I would put the difference like this: A Live entertainer who specifies that they're performing/working on/noticing a customer would heal a combat player about as fast as their skill in Entertainer Healing currently allows them to do automatically. An AFK entertainer who never specifies who they're performing for, who simply wiggles for dancing/music experience would heal about as effectively as a Novice Entertainer, regardless of their trained healing skill. To encourage Live entertainers further, Entertainer Healing experience would ONLY be rewarded for the Wounds and Battle Fatigue healed on those players the Entertainer specified. (Un-specified watchers or listeners would be healed at the same rate AFK entertainers would heal at, until such time as the entertainer begins to heal them specifically)
I do NOT think targetted, purposeful entertainer healing should be limited to only 1 person. I envision up to 5 players having their traumatized psyches soothed and melted away. I also envision some sort of window to keep track of who we are healing at any given time, showing how much more Mind wounding and Battle Fatigue the customer has. It would function roughly like (hopefully more smoothly than) the Medic skill, Diagnose.
I do NOT think healing should be limited to a group (being as they can hold 20 people, and we see how this works with buffing), or be remotely group dependant. Were this limited to groups, or enabled automatically for groups, it would actually encourage AFK performing were this idea to be implimented.
I do NOT think healing experience being shared automatically with the entire group (IN THIS SCENARIO ONLY) would be a good idea. Again, put a group of 20 performers together, and if they have a Master performer with them they would only need that Master to remain Live for the duration - perhaps make the Master the group leader. To give other performers incentive to remain live, Entertainer Healing experience would only be shared amongst characters within the group who are *currently* healing other combat characters as well - or at least within 10 minutes of others.
I do understand that some characters may simply monopolize the healing experience - but as I see it, these kinds of players are already doing so, often while AFK. I imagine these kinds of players to be the ones who are planting themselves in the front door, spamming for people to listen to/watch them for Mind Wound and BF healing, while rejecting any Entertainer group invitations they receive.
I think this might encourage Live Entertainers to aid one another, if only in a "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" sort of way. Perhaps if there are several Entertainers who are healing specific other players' wounds, they would actually get a Healing and experience bonus (if only because they're sharing the Healing experience with someone else).
If a combat player enters a cantina and has 2 performers, 1 more Highly Skilled and 1 Lower Skilled, that combat player has a set amount of experience they can offer to a performer. Both the Higher Skilled and Lower Skilled performers have the opportunity to gain all that experience. However, the more Highly Skilled Entertainer would be able to gain that experience at a significantly higher rate than the Lower Skilled performer, and the combat player would be able to be healed at an equally higher rate. The more Highly Skilled performer would also have the ability to heal more people than the Lower Skilled performer during a given period of time. This would scale Entertainer Healing experience in a way similar to the difference between Medic healing ability and experience returns, and Doctor healing ability and experience returns.
Yes, this does favor players who have reached the Elite professions. But it also offers a great opportunity to Live, Lower Skilled entertainers. If there are both a more Highly Skilled and Lower Skilled entertainer in a given Cantina, and the more Highly Skilled entertainer was AFK, that more Highly Skilled entertainer would a) not gain entertainer healing experience, and b) only be healing at the rate a Live Novice Entertainer heals at. As long as the Lower Skilled entertainer had trained in Entertainer Healing 1, they would be able to heal at a higher rate (even if only slightly, a point or two per round over a minute will add up at these levels) than an AFK Master Dancer/Musician - and get the involved healing experience.
I do think that this might also be a way to encourage players to find live performers rather than any mobile body.
...
Ok, I typed it all out, and then added and re-arranged/re-thought bits and pieces of it so if it sounds fragmented, well, it did rather end up that way. I apologize. Erm...yeah. Sorry if I repeated myself through that fragmentation.
Boy that turned out longer than I expected.
EDIT: Removed the word "short" since none of it looks remotely short now lol
Message Edited by Kiriah on 11-01-2004 04:17 PM
DanceRulez
Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:01 pm
#9
Ok, I've continued thinking about this issue, and working on what I think might be good ideas for the way our profession could be working. I generally assume that any such changes would occur after the AFK plague has gone away, so I don't really consider the problem of, "Well what if someone decides to AFK such and such?".
One of the main things I've been considering is our relation to the combat game as Panthu has suggested we question our ties with the combat player. I started thinking that maybe it might be a good thing to separate ourselves from the combat ingrates of the game: the ones who call us "whiners" for trying to stick up for our professions and viability in the game, the ones that would shove us out of their way as they make a beeline for their beloved bot, the ones who think saying "Hi" is too much forced social interaction, the ones who think /invite is a greeting, the ones who think it's an outrage that we *charge* for a buff, the ones who think entertainer healing and buffing is just a contrived way to force a different play style into the game and create a pointless time sink. Why would we even want the end of AFK just so that we can have the "opportunity" to deal with such cretins on a regular basis (who would no doubt resent us even more once their precious bots are gone) much less rely on them as our primary source of income?
But then I remember that one of my reasons for going into this profession was to be a kind of healer - a healer with some fun perks. I do want to help out other players, and I do want to feel that I am a useful part of the game. I also realized that most of the professions in the game are combat professions, and as far as I know, all the ones that aren't still support the combat professions in some way. Then there are some of my guildmates who I think actually enjoy a little down time with me: watching me perform for a bit and chatting and who tip me way too much for a buff or even a simple heal. There are even those on occasion who value an entertainer's service enough to contact me and offer a hefty bonus to meet them somewhere for a buff or heal. Even last night I went into the cantina at the Dath science outpost with a buffbot in the back and started dancing just to heal my own BF and mind wounds. There was one person there who I thought was AFK, but when I was done and left, he actually chased me down to give me a generous tip for healing him. There are still good combat players out there, and still reasons, I think, for maintaining a relation with them. Not only that, but I'm not sure the devs would want to completely sever our support to combat classes. The only class that was ever independent from combat support was ID, and then they got stat migrations. So I guess, as far as continuing to be a support class for combat players, I'm ok with that. The next question, though, is what else can we change to have a more fun and meaningful gameplay experience.
To answer that question I tried to think about what it is I like to do with this profession. The things I came up with were helping other players (with buffs and heals) and using my skills to perform either for a gig or just when jamming with fellow ents. Socializing with ents and other players goes in there too, but I don't think we need any special tools or changes to facilitate that (though perhaps the musicians do so they don't always have to target some of their instruments). At the same time I was thinking about our current ties to combat support with Ent Healing and the fact that half of our advancement is tied up solely in that one mechanic just as Panthu mentioned. Now I already decided that I like to help, and I think most other entertainers do as well, but I think if you asked most entertainers what they most like to do or would most like to do, the number one answer would probably be to perform or entertain. The ability to heal or even buff is at best a convenient side effect of that primary play style. Why, then, should we be so tied to a game role that is only an ancillary mechanic to what we prefer to do, and furthermore forces us to depend on a class of players many of whom neither appreciate what we do nor even respect our place in the game for not only our economic survival, but moreover our advancement in our own profession? I think the answer is - we shouldn't.
So how should we work? One idea I came up with is that that our whole XP earning system should be overhauled. Ent Healing XP, as we know it, should be removed, and Dance and Music XP as it exists now could be modified a bit. In order to accomodate a play style where we want to focus on performing, then we should be rewarded for that in terms of XP, and this is what could replace Ent Healing XP. It could be called Performance XP, or Entertainment XP, or even Fame XP or whatever, but the point is it should be gained for doing just that - performing. It could work kind of like the way Dance and Music XP work now. Performance XP should be earned whenever anyone watches us or listens to us or the group we're in, with bonuses for group size as well. Even NPC's could count for this. The more people who watch/listen, and the longer they do so, the more the XP bonus. Furthermore, to maintain our connection to combat healing, what we might have earned as Ent Healing XP, could now become another Performance XP bonus. When people /clap or /cheer that could be another Performance XP bonus. You could even expand Performance XP bonuses to things like using special effects or better yet, even timing effects with dance or music flourishes or even timing dance flourishes with music. (How many of you have noticed that you can count the music, and if you start a flourish on beat 1, many of the flourishes actually fit the music by having more dramatic moves, pauses, or changes in time with the music?). Assuming we ever get dance props, Performance XP might also be earned by using these as well. Bandflos would be another great source of Performance XP, with perhaps more of a bonus going to the originator. To free us up even more, Performance XP, like Dance XP, should not be restricted to venue. We should be able to earn Performance XP anywhere we go, whether it's in a cantina, theater, in front of a starport, or performing at a wedding or other party. Now healing (and buffing) could still be restricted to appropriate venues and camps as they are now, and perhaps there could even be performance bonuses for working in these locations, and maybe some locations might offer different bonuses than other locations. Entertainer missions, assuming they get fixed, could be another way to earn Performance XP bonuses.
My idea for Performance XP overlaps quite a bit with the way Dance and Music XP work now, so there might need to be changes made to the way Dance and Music XP work. My thought on this is that this XP should be earned primarily for practicing our music and dance moves. Since we have probably gotten rid of AFK at this point, I would think that we could receive a base level of XP just for performing the base dance or music with XP spikes that diminish over time as they do now for flourishes. They could maybe eliminate the bonuses for things like people watching or listening or clapping or cheering as this would be going toward our Performance XP. I still like the group XP increase for music and dance though this is something they could maybe eliminate if they wanted to and if they tweak other things accordingly. Bandflos should also produce a Dance or Music XP bonus for all who participate.
So these are kind of my basic ideas for the general way our class could work, but I haven't gotten to any of the details of mind/BF healing, buffing, where our money should come from, or what else we could be doing. I'll have to cover that next time.
One of the main things I've been considering is our relation to the combat game as Panthu has suggested we question our ties with the combat player. I started thinking that maybe it might be a good thing to separate ourselves from the combat ingrates of the game: the ones who call us "whiners" for trying to stick up for our professions and viability in the game, the ones that would shove us out of their way as they make a beeline for their beloved bot, the ones who think saying "Hi" is too much forced social interaction, the ones who think /invite is a greeting, the ones who think it's an outrage that we *charge* for a buff, the ones who think entertainer healing and buffing is just a contrived way to force a different play style into the game and create a pointless time sink. Why would we even want the end of AFK just so that we can have the "opportunity" to deal with such cretins on a regular basis (who would no doubt resent us even more once their precious bots are gone) much less rely on them as our primary source of income?
But then I remember that one of my reasons for going into this profession was to be a kind of healer - a healer with some fun perks.
I do want to help out other players, and I do want to feel that I am a useful part of the game. I also realized that most of the professions in the game are combat professions, and as far as I know, all the ones that aren't still support the combat professions in some way. Then there are some of my guildmates who I think actually enjoy a little down time with me: watching me perform for a bit and chatting and who tip me way too much for a buff or even a simple heal. There are even those on occasion who value an entertainer's service enough to contact me and offer a hefty bonus to meet them somewhere for a buff or heal. Even last night I went into the cantina at the Dath science outpost with a buffbot in the back and started dancing just to heal my own BF and mind wounds. There was one person there who I thought was AFK, but when I was done and left, he actually chased me down to give me a generous tip for healing him. There are still good combat players out there, and still reasons, I think, for maintaining a relation with them. Not only that, but I'm not sure the devs would want to completely sever our support to combat classes. The only class that was ever independent from combat support was ID, and then they got stat migrations. So I guess, as far as continuing to be a support class for combat players, I'm ok with that. The next question, though, is what else can we change to have a more fun and meaningful gameplay experience.To answer that question I tried to think about what it is I like to do with this profession. The things I came up with were helping other players (with buffs and heals) and using my skills to perform either for a gig or just when jamming with fellow ents. Socializing with ents and other players goes in there too, but I don't think we need any special tools or changes to facilitate that (though perhaps the musicians do so they don't always have to target some of their instruments). At the same time I was thinking about our current ties to combat support with Ent Healing and the fact that half of our advancement is tied up solely in that one mechanic just as Panthu mentioned. Now I already decided that I like to help, and I think most other entertainers do as well, but I think if you asked most entertainers what they most like to do or would most like to do, the number one answer would probably be to perform or entertain. The ability to heal or even buff is at best a convenient side effect of that primary play style. Why, then, should we be so tied to a game role that is only an ancillary mechanic to what we prefer to do, and furthermore forces us to depend on a class of players many of whom neither appreciate what we do nor even respect our place in the game for not only our economic survival, but moreover our advancement in our own profession? I think the answer is - we shouldn't.
So how should we work? One idea I came up with is that that our whole XP earning system should be overhauled. Ent Healing XP, as we know it, should be removed, and Dance and Music XP as it exists now could be modified a bit. In order to accomodate a play style where we want to focus on performing, then we should be rewarded for that in terms of XP, and this is what could replace Ent Healing XP. It could be called Performance XP, or Entertainment XP, or even Fame XP or whatever, but the point is it should be gained for doing just that - performing. It could work kind of like the way Dance and Music XP work now. Performance XP should be earned whenever anyone watches us or listens to us or the group we're in, with bonuses for group size as well. Even NPC's could count for this. The more people who watch/listen, and the longer they do so, the more the XP bonus. Furthermore, to maintain our connection to combat healing, what we might have earned as Ent Healing XP, could now become another Performance XP bonus. When people /clap or /cheer that could be another Performance XP bonus. You could even expand Performance XP bonuses to things like using special effects or better yet, even timing effects with dance or music flourishes or even timing dance flourishes with music. (How many of you have noticed that you can count the music, and if you start a flourish on beat 1, many of the flourishes actually fit the music by having more dramatic moves, pauses, or changes in time with the music?). Assuming we ever get dance props, Performance XP might also be earned by using these as well. Bandflos would be another great source of Performance XP, with perhaps more of a bonus going to the originator. To free us up even more, Performance XP, like Dance XP, should not be restricted to venue. We should be able to earn Performance XP anywhere we go, whether it's in a cantina, theater, in front of a starport, or performing at a wedding or other party. Now healing (and buffing) could still be restricted to appropriate venues and camps as they are now, and perhaps there could even be performance bonuses for working in these locations, and maybe some locations might offer different bonuses than other locations. Entertainer missions, assuming they get fixed, could be another way to earn Performance XP bonuses.
My idea for Performance XP overlaps quite a bit with the way Dance and Music XP work now, so there might need to be changes made to the way Dance and Music XP work. My thought on this is that this XP should be earned primarily for practicing our music and dance moves. Since we have probably gotten rid of AFK at this point, I would think that we could receive a base level of XP just for performing the base dance or music with XP spikes that diminish over time as they do now for flourishes. They could maybe eliminate the bonuses for things like people watching or listening or clapping or cheering as this would be going toward our Performance XP. I still like the group XP increase for music and dance though this is something they could maybe eliminate if they wanted to and if they tweak other things accordingly. Bandflos should also produce a Dance or Music XP bonus for all who participate.
So these are kind of my basic ideas for the general way our class could work, but I haven't gotten to any of the details of mind/BF healing, buffing, where our money should come from, or what else we could be doing. I'll have to cover that next time.
Goldy_Lhim
Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:26 am
#10
If we didn't heal though, what would we do? It's not just entertainers that are forced to service combat and are tied to combat folks. Crafters don't fight and are tied with the combat folks who buy their guns and armor andfood anddroids, etc. Difference is crafters don't depend on exp from them. They can craft as many weapons as they want and continue their merry way.
Doctors are also non-combat that are dependent on combat folks. They don't get healing exp unless they heal another person. But you'll see their profession cheapened as well with the AFK tumblers. But they are also tied to combat folks (or at least those that can create damage) for experience.
I can say for certain that if dancer didn't give me any benefit for helping my boyfriend, brother, guildmates and friends- I would drop it. I can be 100% social and not be a dancer. I would miss my dances,my first party that I couldn't dance at would pain me, but I could still play as a "social profession" and not have to be a dancer.
We're all mangled together, its meant to be this way its just not working as smoothly as the developers hoped. We're supposed to build connections and needs from other players. I am tied to tailors for my outfit, tied to medics for healing, tied to chefs for food when medics aren't available, tied to combat folks for healing, tied to architects for my furniture, etc etc. But in return they are tied to me as well. I provide a service, I help them while they're helping me.
The battle fatigue idea is a good idea but the problem isn't that we heal their wounds, its that they feel forced to come see us. We're a time sink and a neccessary evil. Something needs to be reworked to make us considered a benefit, not a pain. I've seen lots of good ideas about this. It just needs dev attention. And bless panthu's heart she tries and we're still ignored. We need content, we need more functionality, we need to be on par with doctor's in terms of usefulness. Bumped up on the respect ladder several rungs to not seen by the general populace as afk space floozies but a benefit to them and what they do.
I guess I'm saying that I think our ties to combat profession is needed. If we're just thrust into our own silo of "social content", who do we perform for? What is our function in the galaxy?
LyteFoot
Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:41 am
#11
I'm going to strongly dispute this concept that enterainer buffs are costless folks. First and foremost I personally have given up master creature handler and master scout for this profession. My ability to harvest resources and sell them are phenominally lower than they were so my personal cost is the ability to make many millions of credits.
Even without considering my situation every entertainer gives up precious skill points that can be used to make mad lootto master theseprofessions. Add to that the cost of giving a buff, for me to provide a musician buff in 3 minutes I have to drink two servings of accarragm and it isn't free. Either that or I have to get buffs on my action stats, most doctors won't do the one set of stats so I'm going to be out a few thousand credits either way. I also have to acquire my instruments or the resources for those instruments, both cost credits because I don't have the skill points to keep any artisan skills.
Now lets add wardrobes. As a male its not as bad but the clothes aren't free and some aren't cheap. Entertainers rarely die so things don't wear out as bad but they also tend to have multiple houses to store their stuff which is another ongoing cost. Can you entertain in only one outfit? Sure you can but how fun is it to have a character with one outfit, no permanent home, and nothing to show for their time in the game?
I keep master rifleman and novice scout to make my real money but I have 1 skill point left, the best I will accomplish is minimal harvesting. Yes I can do missions for credits as well but none of these are entertainer abilities. As a musician I'm forced to have master entertainer so I can do what is described for mastermusician and "play all the instruments in the galaxy". Of course I don't have to have the mando but I want it since it is also very cool.
So this zero cost to entertaining is simple garbage. It costs each and every entertainer a great deal in time, skill points, and some ongoing costs to do what they do. It isn't free for us in any manner and continuing to say it is propigates a mis-conception.
Believe me doc costs for their buff packs can be nominal depending on the docs situation. Our guild regularly gathers the resources for the doc so we have litte cost internally in the guild. How many other docs get this and sell those same buffs for 15k a pop to lines 30 people deep? So a docs cost can be very low and even if they buy the buff packs is nowhere near the price they charge. Why is it ok for a doc to make a healthy profit and not an entertainer? The doc that simply buys his/her buff packs is charging about 100% markup on that and spending no effort beyond picking up the crates and sitting despensing buffs. How is that any more effort than an entertainer who not only takes longer to apply the buffs but also often has to reapply them because they didn't take?
Reachwind
Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:13 am
#12
An enertainer needs an audience, a stage and the abilitiy to utilize a variety of moves and effects to create a unique and imaginitive show.
At present we have broken moves, no decent stage in the #1 place we are meant to perform and an audience that HATES us.
The fixes I would make would be to first of all tie our healing and buffing to the performance. Executing a flo should work like a combat attack. Instead of dealing damage it would remove wounds or BF. Each flourish would work towards a specific type. Flo 1 mihgt remove BF while flo 2 would take away mind wounds for instance. Each effect executed would speed up the buffing/healing process.
The next change I would make would be to add a special pool similar to the jedi force pool to all entertainers. This pool would only increase by mastering entertainer/dancer or musician.
Another change I would make is to add a stage area to every cantina. The stage area would be in one of the side rooms in the cantina and would be the only area in the cantina where healing would work. Standing in the doorway and dancing would give the same healing effect as dancing in the street.
The most important change I would make is to make DAMN sure tat all dances and flourishes worked and looked right. This is a VISUAL game mechanic and as such the art department's collective **s would be on the line to make it work right.
At present we have broken moves, no decent stage in the #1 place we are meant to perform and an audience that HATES us.
The fixes I would make would be to first of all tie our healing and buffing to the performance. Executing a flo should work like a combat attack. Instead of dealing damage it would remove wounds or BF. Each flourish would work towards a specific type. Flo 1 mihgt remove BF while flo 2 would take away mind wounds for instance. Each effect executed would speed up the buffing/healing process.
The next change I would make would be to add a special pool similar to the jedi force pool to all entertainers. This pool would only increase by mastering entertainer/dancer or musician.
Another change I would make is to add a stage area to every cantina. The stage area would be in one of the side rooms in the cantina and would be the only area in the cantina where healing would work. Standing in the doorway and dancing would give the same healing effect as dancing in the street.
The most important change I would make is to make DAMN sure tat all dances and flourishes worked and looked right. This is a VISUAL game mechanic and as such the art department's collective **s would be on the line to make it work right.
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